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event chart (legal)

 
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:00 am    Post subject: event chart (legal) Reply with quote

Okay, for anyone who wants to tackle an event chart where the answer is already known, this was an appeal by a prisoner against his sentence (not his conviction). It was argued that the sentence was manifestly excessive and erroneous in law.

Data: 29 September 2005, at 3:45 pm NZST (GMT+12), Auckland, New Zealand. (Asc - 4 degrees Pisces; MC - 1 degree Sag).

I won't say too much at this stage, but would be curious to know if anyone was able to answer the following questions:

what was the outcome of the appeal?

what was the attitude / demeanour of the judge?

what was the attitude / demeanour of opposing counsel (for the Crown)?

(Administrators: I would be much obliged if the chart could be posted up in this thread - I still can't seem to manage this!!)
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Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi kurgal,

Would I be correct in assuming that there is no jury for this appeal? And the prisoner is taking the crown to court? I would almost be tempted to use the 12th house for the prisoner, particularly given that using the 1st house would give the prisoner and the judge the same significator. But, then again, it is the prisoner who is the initiator of the action so probably should get the 1st.
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Sue"]Hi kurgal,

Would I be correct in assuming that there is no jury for this appeal? And the prisoner is taking the crown to court? I would almost be tempted to use the 12th house for the prisoner, particularly given that using the 1st house would give the prisoner and the judge the same significator. But, then again, it is the prisoner who is the initiator of the action so probably should get the 1st.[/quote]

Sue, you are correct, this is an appeal to a High Court, before a Judge alone - no jury.

I totally see your point about the 12th House as signification of the prisoner - that seems valid, except I haven't yet tried to interpret the chart from that angle. It's amazing what a fresh perspective can give... it seems so obvious now, given that the 12th is the traditional signification for prisons and prisoners....

However, I used the 1st House ruler as significator of the Appellant here (because the prisoner is bringing the appeal, initiating the action). The Respondent (7th House) is the State or the Crown.

Obviously, the 10th House ruler is the Judge, as you have said.

This approach does indeed give the same siginificator as the Appellant.
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had another look at the chart and I now think that the 12th House significator (Saturn) describes this man's status as prisoner whereas the First House ruler reflects him in his position as appellant.

Saturn is placed in the 6th House. Saturn rules "Old Men." This man was in his seventies. Sixth House rules illness. This man had severe arthritis and a myriad of other health complaints. Also, Saturn is in its detriment in Leo, perhaps reflecting his very weak and poor position in life.

Sixth House Saturn therefore describes him very accurately - literally the prisoner (ruler of the 12th) was "a sick old man!" (Saturn in detriment in Leo in the 6th)!!

However, I don't think this significator/placement accurately indicates his appeal prospects, or reflects his position as appellant. I think that is described by the ruler of the First House i.e. Jupiter...
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Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi kurgal,

This is interesting. I did keep coming up with the image of the prisoner as quite sick. I didn't really think of old so much although with Saturn that would make sense. I was interested in your way of differentiating between the 12th house and the 1st house for the prisoner/appellant. I haven't had another look at that chart with that in mind but will do so later tonight.

I don't quite know what to make of the applying square of the Moon to Venus (the lawyers of the prisoner). Was there a problem between them? Interestingly, there seems to be a reasonable amount of reception between Mercury (Crown) and Saturn (prisoner as prisoner). The aspect between them is separating, however.
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The distinction I made between "prisoner" and "appellant" is really just a theory I came up with whilst analysing this chart - it seemed to make good sense. However, I'm not sure how much support there is for such an approach in tradition (although of course using the First House to signify the Appellant is uncontroversial, and has an established basis in traditional astrology).

I hadn't really looked closely at the applying square of Moon to Venus before - I must give this a closer look.

You're right on the button with the idea of reception between the Crown and the prisoner - and this concept is reflected in other ways in the chart as well.

For example, Jupiter (prisoner as Appellant) is at 24 degrees Libra - in Mercury's term.

Mercury (Crown/lawyers for Crown) is at 14 degrees Libra - in Jupiter's term.

So there is mutual reception (by term) between the Appellant and the Crown/Crown lawyers! And both planets of course share the same sign...

So we are seeing a lot of affinity and reception here, and it was indeed a fact that the Crown was enormously receptive to the Appellant's case, right from the outset, and without any question at all, or any dispute.

The more I look at this chart, the more I realise how rich and descriptive it is of the entire situation (the prisoner himself, the appeal case, and the detailed interplay between all of the parties concerned - Judge, prisoner, lawyers, and Crown).
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Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what I couldn't work out. It all makes sense now that you have said all of this. To me the Crown seemed to be helping rather than hindering. It seemed clear from the start that the judge was amenable to the prisoner. But I couldn't quite work out why it seemed that the opposition would be so predisposed to helping the appellant. But it seems even stronger when we consider the 12th house prisoner situation. If you look at the reception between Mercury and Saturn it is quite strong. I don't really know either whether it is okay to consider both the 1st and the 12th in this way but it does seem to add another dimension to the chart. I wonder if the strong reception between Mercury and Saturn indicates that the Crown saw him as a sick old man rather than an 'enemy' so to speak and were far more amenable to his case because of this. Mercury isn't very strong indicating that the Crown's case may be weak. They have only just come out of combustion by 5 minutes. Venus, even though it is in detriment, appears to be the stronger of the two.
I'm curious about the amount of reception between 12th house prisoner (Saturn) and his 6th house ruler, the Sun.
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Sue"]This is what I couldn't work out. It all makes sense now that you have said all of this. To me the Crown seemed to be helping rather than hindering. .... But I couldn't quite work out why it seemed that the opposition would be so predisposed to helping the appellant. ... I wonder if the strong reception between Mercury and Saturn indicates that the Crown saw him as a sick old man rather than an 'enemy' so to speak and were far more amenable to his case because of this. Mercury isn't very strong indicating that the Crown's case may be weak....[/quote]

This is all very apt. Again you've hit the nail on the head with respect to the Crown's desire to help (or at least not strongly oppose) the prisoner's case. I think the Crown did see him as a "sick old man" who had been given a raw deal, so it had to be very careful not to be seen to be over-zealous here. In the eyes of the Court, to strongly oppose the prisoner's case may have simply appeared punitive, cruel and unnecessary...

One ground of appeal was of course the prisoner's age, and his ill-health, however the primary ground was an error of law: the prisoner had been sentenced under the wrong provision of the Criminal Code, carrying a maximum penalty double that which ought to have applied! At the original sentencing, this wasn't picked up on by either the prosecutor, the Judge, OR the man's lawyer at the hearing, would you believe Shocked

The original lawyer wasn't prepared to take the appeal because he still thought the overall sentence handed down was fair (he was dismissed in any event - the prisoner was very unhappy with his representation).

Another sign of weakness in the Crown's case too I think, is the placement of Mercury (significator) in the middle of the 8th House, a position of weakness and loss; whereas the appellant's significator is stronger and placed near the cusp of the 9th house.

Further, whilst Venus (appellant's lawyer) is in detriment in Scorpio, it is actually placed in the 9th House, which I would take as a positive sign that he has a good grasp of the law and knows what he is talking about.

In reality, the Crown was in a very weak position right from the beginning because it could never have credibly contested the "error of law" point - it would have been a pointless waste of time - so it did the sensible thing and essentially conceded the appeal right at the outset. The only thing left to determine was the appropriate length of the reduced sentence.
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a footnote, I should add that every person involved in this appeal was extremely cooperative. there were no adversarial machinations whatsoever. everybody agreed with everybody! it was almost absurd.

this can be seen in the chart. there is a form of reception between every player involved. note too the emphasis in Libra.

the Judge is shown by Jupiter. Jupiter is in Libra on the 9th cusp. he was your classic Libran judge. I was not counsel in this case, but I did some work on it, and I was present in the courtroom when the appeal was heard. he was awfully polite. he was awfully nice to everyone. he praised both counsel (remember these are theoretically opposing parties) with remarks such as "you both are being very fair-minded about this..etc" the word "fair-minded" came up a lot, and sort of characterised the whole course of the proceedings!

he was so diplomatic and polite, that the few harsh words that he had for the lower court judge (quite deserved too), he actually took out of the written decision! so he was at pains to avoid causing any kind of offence to anyone. very Libran!
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