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(Tom) Chart comparison for you

1 by granny_skot
Tom,

I was looking at charts for both 21 Nov 1620 Plymouth and 21 December 1620 (actual disembarkment) and comparing with planetry movement in both cases to 4 july 1776, not that in the 16 20 charts Saturn is bound by 1776 chart by Jupiter and Venus and the 1776 chart SAturn is bound by the 1620 charts neptune and Mars... I was thinking the charts seemed interesting and since we both seem to like playing with that chart, thought I'd bring it up for general discussion... the charts are old gregorian.

Neptune and mars - ideals and passion?
Jupiter and Venus - Growth, wealth, beauty?

Saturn - authority, time, paternal judgement?
also you either end up with a 29 Sco chart for 21 Nov 1620 or a 0 Capricorn chart if you choose 21 December for a begining...
While the charter was signed 21 November, they really didn't pick a spot and land until 21 December so? or you could take 16 SEptember Plymouth England as a start date?

that would give you, 23 Virgo 54 Sun
and Puts A retrograde Saturn just outside the Jupiter Venus binding...
interestingly on the noon chart the vertex is at 14 Cancer 45, and the 1776 chart sun is at 12 Can 26
sun conj 1776 Neptune, a few other interesting aspects..

Granny

2 by Tom
Granny,

One reason I don't spend a lot of time with mundane astrology is that it is exceptionally chart heavy, and requires a lot of time that I don't have. While some countries have generally agreed upon charts, the US is certainly not one of them.

The problem begins with the idea that the best chart, perhaps the only chart worthy of consideration is the chart cast for the beginning of something. The US went from a tiny colonial settlement or settlements to independence to a world power in a relatively short period of time. The various July 4 charts are valid to one extent or another, but their exclusive use ignores the fact that the US established a form of government that ultimately failed and replaced it with one that suceeded. The failed government went in place about the July 4 1776 date. The successful one went into effect on September 17, 1789. Is the latter date the best one to use?

The first European settlement in what is now America was not in Plymouth, Masschusetts (1620) or even Jamestown, Virginia (1607), but in Florida by the Spanish in 1565. The greatest impact, however, was made by the English settlers first in Jamestown later in Plymouth, so which of these charts should we use to tell us about the USA?

The 1776 chart(s) debate is old news and everyone has their favorites and each one has its "hits." But there are others. Is the July 4 chart any more valid than the Battle of Lexington and Concord chart? Was the July 4 Declaration even ratified on July 4 (hint: it wasn't).

Each of these charts has a certain amount of validity for whatever it is they represent. I would think the 1620 chart shows us not a great deal about the entity that ultimately became the USA, but rather it tells us about he Plymouth colony. Ditto the 1607 chart cast for Jamestown. Do these charts lead up to and tell us things that culminate in the 1776 charts? Probably, but that takes more work than I'm willing to do. It sounds like a worthwhile project, though.

The single chart that I like to use is March 18, 1762, 4:41 PM GMT. This is the chart of the Saturn - Jupiter Conjunction that took place prior to American Independence. It can be cast for Washington DC, despite the fact that Washington DC didn't exist in 1762, or if you prefer take the Robert Zoller position and use New York City (origninally New Amsterdam - the Dutch settled there first). The difference between charts cast for NYC and DC are minimal. Split the difference and use Philadelphia.

This chart, 1762, can be compared to subsequent grand conjunctions that took place during major historical periods in US history with surprising results. It can also be compared to event charts such as the attacks on Pearl Harbor and September 11, 2001.

I think the colonial charts tell us about the colonial period. Jamestown and Plymouth were settled by people who came to the New World with entirely different attitudes that shape the attitudes of the Northern US and Southern US to this day. There is also common ground among the two sections and then there is California. ;-)

All the charts have merit. All the charts have "hits," but I think they all tell different stories as they should.

Your observations are the kind that seem to transcend a single chart. A US Sun in Virgo makes some sense, particularly since the people landing were called Puritans (careful here: the meaning of the word as applied to 17th century English is not the same as we currently use the word in the US as a synonym for "prude") That's OK, but they probably tell a lot more if we look hard enough. As for me, I recently took the outer planets off my computer display. I don't know where they are, where they were, or where they're going. I may put them back some day.

Try looking at eclipses prior to Nov 21 or Dec 21 1620 and compare those charts to the ones you selected and also check the grand conjunctions. And please tell us what you find.

Tom

3 by SIDERUM
Hi Granny
In my last trip to USA, i visited for research, the first city in the territory of USA, St.Agustine.
St. Augustine was founding, Sept 8, 1565 at 4:57 PM LMT, MH=13?11'Sagitarius.
St. Agustine Chart, is very significant, because shows many degree and planetary cycles similar to Jul 4, 1776, for example: 13?Sagitarius (Siby Chart), and 15? Geminis ( Marr Chart) , Mars/Neptune, Uranus=8?Mutable; Mercury/Uranus.
Other important Chart is Manhattan, who was the ASC=13?Geminis!!!, and Pluto=12?Geminis, check St, Agustine Pluto=15?Piscis!!!
Sun=24?Aquarius=Saturn ( St.Agustine)=25?Leo.
Nodo S=24?Virgo=Sun (St.A)!!!
Kind Regards and Good Research!!!
Mario
www.siderum.com

4 by granny_skot
Huh Humm, Tom, 17 September 1789?

If you are going to use that one, then definitely I think you should compare tot he 16 Sept 1620 Plymouth Eng chart... there are seeds of the cumulation there...

Also interesting in that event is that George Washington was the instigator of the Constitutional convention. many of the key players in the Continental congress and the fight for independence were involved in that group, but more to the point, if you are going ot call someone the father of the country, the fact that he fathered, drove the construction of the legal foundation of the country pretty much makes a better reason, than just about any other you could think of.

Also you say, why the 1620 event and not Jamestown or the spanish experiment, well because they didn't last, or take hold and the Plymouth venture did. the other ventures didn't start a colony, they floundered, and in better living locations than New England. Which I find astounding.

if you look at the 1620 and 1789 charts you will note that Mercury, Venus and Neptune are in Libra in BOTH charts, Moon in Virgo in 1789 chart, Moon in Taurus in 1620 chart, emotional ties to earth? mother?, Jupiter Squares itself, 20 Taurus in one, 20 Leo in the other, Pluto squares itself, 13 taurus in one, 17 aquarius in the other, Uranus in Leo in both charts,

I think I'll pull up some more charts at some point and just look at some comparisons.

interesting! Granny

Siderum, I guess that would explain why the Spanish Colony was bound to become and American City? I thought that venture did not take hold? that it was re-established later? must look into it.

5 by Tom
Huh Humm, Tom, 17 September 1789?
The final draft of the US Constitution unanimously approved . It should be 1787 - Typo - Sorry about that. Nine states were required fo ratification and that goal was met on June 21, 1788. However it was acknowledged that the fledgling goverment wouldn't last if New York and Virginia didn't ratify and they did on June 25, 1788, and July 26, 1788 respectively. It went into effect September 13, 1788. Pick a date and cast a chart.
well because they didn't last, or take hold and the Plymouth venture did.
Jamestown is interesting since some recent archeological discoveries are revising some of the previously held wisdom of historians. Jamestown did survive, sort of. The alarming death rate was due primarily to starvation, disease, and Indian attacks. At one point only 60 of over 200 original settlers survived. They decided to abandon the town (fort really), but were persuaded to return when supply ships found them. The colony went on to thrive and become the Commonwealth of Virginia. It was a much rockier beginning than Plymouth. Virginia in colonial times, would become to the South what Massachusetts was to the North.

Accroding to Luke Broughton, George Washington was born on Feb 22, 1732 (NS) about 10:00 am (from a family Bible). He states "Virginia,"but does not give a town. In order to get the same angles Broughton published, I used 10:01:44 am at Wakefield Corner, Virginia.

Tom

6 by granny_skot
my Huh Humm, was for You not registering in your note the similarity to 16 september 1620. not to suggest I didn't recognize the date. =)

And thank you for the Data on George WAshington.

Granny

7 by granny_skot
my Huh Humm, was for You not registering in your note the similarity to 16 september 1620. not to suggest I didn't recognize the date. =)

And thank you for the Data on George WAshington.

Granny

8 by Tom
How could you recognize the date? It was wrong! That's why I corrected it and since this is an open forum, there may have been people who weren't aware of the date's significance so I explained it. I didn't have any particular individual in mind.

Tom

10 by Sue
The successful one went into effect on September 17, 1789 or 87 or whatever,
If you are attempting to compare two charts then 'whatever' doesn't quite cut it for the date of one of the charts. How can you possibly think that the date is irrelevant? You are asking Tom to compare two charts. One is dated 16 September 1620. The other date seems irrelevant to you. How can you berate Tom for failing to notice the similarities when there is no agreement on the date? Call me strange but I think it makes a big difference whether you compare Septemer 1787 or September 1789. The Sun will always be in the same position every year at that time. So you can compare years and years of charts and find that the Sun will be in the same position in all of them. Therefore, it is difficult to read any significance into that specific detail in chart comparison.

virgo Sun

11 by granny_skot
If the date 16 September or there abouts keeps coming up century after century in a countries chart, then I'd argue the year doesnt' matter, what is being said is that a Virgo Sun is extremely important in the life of that country, and just to kick it some more, the Paris Treaty was also signed in SEptember. Apparently with this country its a biggy.

lets look a bit
SEptember 1st
1752 - The Liberty Bell arrives in Philadelphia.
SEptember 2
1789 - The United States Department of the Treasury is founded.
SEptember 3 (a big day in America)
1777 - Cooch's Bridge - Skirmish of American Revolutionary war in New Castle County, Delaware where the Flag of the United States was flown in battle for the first time.
1783 - American Revolutionary War: The war ends with the signing of the Treaty of Paris by the United States and the Kingdom of Great Britain.
1798 - Weeklong battle of St. George's Caye begun between Spanish and British off the coast of Belize.
1826 - The USS Vincennes commanded by William Finch, leaves New York City to become first United States warship to circumnavigate the globe.
1838 - Dressed in a sailor's uniform and carrying identification papers provided by a Free Black seaman, future abolitionist Frederick Douglass boards a train in Maryland on his way to freedom from slavery.
1855 - Indian Wars: In Nebraska, 700 soldiers under American General William S. Harney avenge the Grattan Massacre by attacking a Sioux village, killing 100 men, women, and children.
1895 - The first professional American football game is played, in Latrobe, Pennsylvania, between the Latrobe YMCA and the Jeannette Athletic Club. (Latrobe won the contest 12-0).
SEptember 4
1781 - Los Angeles, California, is founded as El Pueblo de Nuestra Se?ora La Reina de los ?ngeles de Porci?ncula (the City of Our Lady, the Queen of the Angels of the Little Portion) by a group of 44 Spanish settlers.
SEptember 5, another Biggy
1774 - First Continental Congress assembles in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
1882 - The first United States Labor Day parade is held in New York City.
SEptember 6
1620 - The Pilgrims sail from Plymouth, England, on the Mayflower to settle in North America. (seems to be some arguement over whether it is the 6th or 16th)
1628 - Puritans settle Salem, which will later become part of Massachusetts Bay Colony.
SEpt 7
1776 - World's first submarine attack: the American submersible craft Turtle attempts to attach a time bomb to the hull of British Admiral Richard Howe's flagship HMS Eagle in New York Harbor.
SEpt 8
1565 - Pedro Men?ndez de Avil?s settles St. Augustine, Florida.
9 SEptember
1776 - The Continental Congress officially names their new union of sovereign states the United States (the United States didn't become a country until the ratification of the Constitution).
1850 - California is admitted as the thirty-first U.S. state.
(being a CAlifornian, this of course is a very important event)
1850 - The Compromise of 1850 strips Texas of a third of its claimed territory (now parts of Colorado, Kansas, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Wyoming) in return for the U.S. federal government assuming $10 million of Texas's pre-annexation debt. (thus began the habit of Texans expecting Californians to cover their tails...yes, that was a snide political remark, see also Enron)
SEptember 10
1608 - John Smith is elected council president of Jamestown, Virginia.
1776 - American Revolutionary War: Nathan Hale volunteers to spy.
1813 - The U.S. defeats the British Fleet at the Battle of Lake Erie during the War of 1812.
SEptember 11 another biggy - infact I'll go a few extra years here
1609 - Henry Hudson lands on Manhattan island.
1773 - The Public Advertiser publishes a satrical essay titled Rules By Which A Great Empire May Be Reduced To A Small One, which is written by Benjamin Franklin.
1776 - British-American peace conference on Staten Island fails to stop nascent American Revolution.
1777 - Battle of Brandywine - Major American Revolutionary war victory for British in Chester County, Pennsylvania.
1786 - The Beginning of the Annapolis Convention.
1789 - Alexander Hamilton is appointed as first Secretary of the Treasury.
1814 - The climax of the Battle of Plattsburgh, which ended the War of 1812.
1857 - The Mountain Meadows Massacre: Mormon settlers and Paiutes massacre 120 pioneers at Mountain Meadows, Utah.
1911 - Middle Tennessee State University is founded in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, as Middle Tennessee Normal School.
1919 - U.S. Marines invade Honduras.
1931 - Salvatore Maranzano is murdered by Charles Luciano's hitmen.
1940 - George Stibitz pioneers the first remote operation of a computer.
1941 - Ground broken for the construction of The Pentagon.
1960 - Young Americans for Freedom meeting at home of William F. Buckley, Jr. promulgates the Sharon Statement.
1970 - The Ford Pinto is introduced. (another great tragedy, inserted this one just for humor)
1973 - A CIA supported military coup in Chile headed by General Augusto Pinochet topples the democratically elected President Salvador Allende[1]. Pinochet remains in power for almost 17 years.
1978 - U.S. President Jimmy Carter, President Sadat of Egypt, and Prime Minister Begin of Israel met at Camp David and agreed on a framework for peace between Israel and Egypt and a comprehensive peace in the Middle East.
1990 - U.S. President George H. W. Bush delivers a nationally televised speech in which he threatens the use of force to remove Iraqi soldiers from Kuwait, which Iraq had recently invaded. (seeds of the future)
2001 - The September 11 attacks destroy the World Trade Center in New York City, the western wall of The Pentagon in Arlington, Virginia, and crash a passenger airliner in Shanksville, Pennsylvania. In total, almost 3,000 are killed.
SEpt 12
1609 - Henry Hudson discovers the Hudson River.
1814 - Battle of North Point: An American detachment halts the British land advance to Baltimore in the War of 1812.
13 September
1788 - The United States Constitutional Convention sets the date for the country's first presidential election, and New York City becomes the temporary capital of the U.S.
1813 - The British fail to capture Baltimore, Maryland. Turning point in the War of 1812.
1972 the best sister a person could ever have born
14 SEptember
1814 - Francis Scott Key writes The Star-Spangled Banner.
1901 - President of the United States William McKinley dies after an assassination attempt on September 6, and is succeeded by Theodore Roosevelt.
1948 - Groundbreaking for the United Nations headquarters in New York City.
1960 - The Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) is founded.
15 SEptember
1776 - American Revolutionary War: British land at Kip's Bay during the New York Campaign.
1789 - The United States Department of State is established (formerly known as Department of Foreign Affairs).
1835 - The HMS Beagle, with Charles Darwin aboard, reaches the Gal?pagos Islands.
16 September
1776 - American Revolutionary War: the Battle of Harlem Heights is fought.
17 september
1630 - The city of Boston, Massachusetts, is founded.
1776 - The Presidio of San Francisco is founded in New Spain.
1778 - Treaty of Fort Pitt signed, the first formal treaty between the United States and a Native American tribe (the Lenape or Delaware).
1787 - The United States Constitution is signed in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
18 september
1789 - American government takes out first ever loan, a total of $191,608.81.
1793 - The first cornerstone of the Capitol building is laid by George Washington.

Now July 4 and there abouts has several important things occuring arround it through the centuries, But I would argue that there are far more national events happening in the first two weeks of SEptember for America in Every instance, ergo, the Virgo Sun connection has a significant import for the country, well my .02 anyway...

Granny
Last edited by granny_skot on Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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