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John Lennon
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Annushka



Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 15
Location: Ukraine

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:47 pm    Post subject: John Lennon Reply with quote

Take a look at John Lennon`s birth chart: 9 Oktober 1940, 18:30, Liverpool, England 53N25 02W55.
His Venus is totally weak: she is in Virgo, in the 6th house, no reception is to be found.. How could it happen to be, that a man who has such a Venus in his horoscope managed to compose songs like "Imagine" and become a professional world wide known musician whos music lives longer than he did?
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Lennon's Venus is in sextile to his Mercury. That aspect represents the articulation (Mercury) of the aesthetic sense (Venus), and that they worked nicely together (sextile). Whether Lennon's music is the stuff of legend or a passing fancy is a value judgment made by others. His ability to convey whatever talent he has is shown by the above aspect.

Tom
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Labalance



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
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Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plus his moon is in the 10th, isn't that often an indicator of a person who desires the limelight and often gets it?
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Plus his moon is in the 10th, isn't that often an indicator of a person who desires the limelight and often gets it?


I used the following data:

Oct 9, 1940,
6:30 PM BST
Liverpool, England

With Placidus cusps that puts the Moon in Aquarius in the 11th house. Whole sign houses would have it in 11, too. Moon in 11 could potentially show great popularity, but I would expect to see more than that before making that judgment.

Tom


Last edited by Tom on Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
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Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The moon in the 11th also would have been the perfect manifestation of the idealism he expressed through songs like 'Imagine', especially being in Aquarius, the sign of brotherhood (and sisterhood for the PC amongst us). He was a flaming idealist.
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Labalance



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Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops! That's right it is in the 11th. But it does seem to me that Venus is not always the signature for a singer, it seems to me that the mercury is more indicative of that. Any thoughts? Also, a lot of singers charts have Taurus in their charts (most often mercury and venus together) so maybe his saturn and jupiter in Taurus opposite the mercury have more to do with it?
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
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Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, he wasn't exactly known for his singing voice, was he? Pavarotti he was not. However, of the Lennon/McCartney songwriting team, he was the one who wrote weightier, more cutting lyrics than McCartney, who was (and still is) a past master at fluffy songwriting.
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Annushka



Joined: 02 Nov 2006
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:27 pm    Post subject: John Lennon Reply with quote

Actually I didn`t mean that Venus alone may signify a singer as a profession. More than that I was talking about a person who dedicated his live to music, a Venus ruled thing (that is everything beautiful, arts are ruled by Venus). It seemed somehow unlogical to me that a person who has a weak Venus may have so strong relation to a Venus-ruled thing like music.
And when we speak about is planets in Taurus we should also look at the condition of their dispositor, that is Venus in Virgo, 6th house.
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Venus in Virgo in the 6th lacks both essential and accidental dignity. However Venus (beauty, aesthetics) rules so much in his chart. She is the ruler of an angle, the 7th, she disposits his ASC ruler, his angular Sun and the Jupiter-Saturn Conjunction he was born under. Venus is very busy in this chart. She is not, however, independent and strong, but she is very influential, and via Mercury finds it easy to express whatever it is she has.

Your question would be more difficult to answer if there were other planets in this chart that had a great deal of essential dignity, but there are none. In fact not one of the 7 classical planets is any of its own signs.

Tom
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Annushka



Joined: 02 Nov 2006
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Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed. But here we`re dealing with an extraordinary person, a celebrity or even more than that. How does it happen to be?
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granny_skot



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Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Archergirl,
interestingly I rarely like Lennons songs, I find them superficial, I generally like McCArtneys songs, I find them much deeper, but then people often attribute songs such as Yesterday to Lennon, who wrote Imagine (which is a lovely tune, but for which I totally disagree, and find extremely self centered. Yes I know many people disagree with me on that) And Hey Jude, which McCartney wrote for one of Johns sons.

flaming idealist may be one way to look at him, but I generally thought his actions did not match his words. but then I've been trying not to see artists as any more than their art lately, I think it is unfair to both the artist, and to myself to do so.

As to weak venus and strong musician, the charts I've looked at for singers seem to have strong Air sign connection, A few Algol connections, or strong Mercury/venus.
One thing I've been doing is just looking through birth lists to see who's DoB falls where (preferably ones that list at least the year as well as day) lately and its been interesting to see what falls where. And rather startling in some cases. The Algol connection really threw me for a moment or two.
Granny
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Labalance



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Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see that Venus alone signifies singing, I definately notice it more when in connection with Mercury. I've always thought of Neptune as more connected to singing, but then again it is an outer planet.
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Indeed. But here we`re dealing with an extraordinary person, a celebrity or even more than that. How does it happen to be?


I'm not sure what you're asking. How it happens to be is most likely due to hard work and slick marketing.

The possibility is that you're wondering why a person with an essentially weak chart (or planet) had such a successful life. The problem with this is that it implies that people with strong charts are successful and people with weak charts are not. Or that people with a weak planet would be especially weak in the area of life represented by the planet. This is manifestly false. There are any number of successful people who have weak charts, Abraham Lincoln, Mahatma Ghandi, and George S. Patton come to mind. One of the strongest charts I've ever seen belongs to a woman who has made a mess of her life and shows no inclination to ever change.

I am, somewhat oddly given my age, not a Beatles fan and never was. I never could see the big deal. That John Lennon does not have a chart that spells out "maginficent musician" doesn't surprise me because I don't think he was one, and there lies the answer or at least part of it. It is others who decide if someone is famous, beloved, or hated for that matter. What may be in his chart is a strong resonance with the public or a chart that defines a particular generation, perhaps a Jupiter - Saturn conjunction. They love him regardless of his seriously debilitated Venus.

The other reason for his fame is that John Lennon worked. He worked hard to realize his full potential and that potential may have been simply that he was good at being popular (my view) or that his music has genuine value (others' view), but those viewpoints will not be found in his chart. The kind of person he was is found in his chart, and that he related well to others is in his chart. I don't know that the adoration is so easily explained in his chart alone. But I would never discount the potential for talent and fame because of a debilitated planet.

Tom
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Finland

Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Bonatti's concept of reception explains quite a lot about Lennon's debilitated Venus. As Tom noted, Mercury sextiles Venus and because Venus is in Mercury's sign, Mercury "commits and gives to the planet its own disposition, nature and virtue" as Bonatti writes in Liber Astronomiae III - Mercury is not very powerful either, though, it's angular, but otherwise peregrine.

What I'm wondering is that Bonatti writes that the only conditions when a planet in a sign of another planet is not able to to take advantage of the reception is, when the planet is combust or retrogade. So debility is not an obstruction to being received. What happens when the dispositor receives a planet in detriment or fall (like Lennon's Venus in Virgo)? Does debilitation get cancelled, like Indian astrologers say, or does the debilitated planet use the virtue it has got for misbehaving more efficiently, or does the dispositor suffer, or something else?
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The birth time is disputed. Some say it was a morning birth. Even 6:30 pm is likely too late. This is from AstroDatabank:

“Aaron Fischer quotes his Aunt Mimi in Ray Coleman's "Lennon," McGraw-Hill, 1985, New York, "At 6:30 on 9 October I phoned and they said Mrs. Lennon had just had a boy." This would put the time somewhat before 6:30 PM.”

In conversation “Just had a boy” could be hours.

If anyone is bound and determined to give him a strong Venus, then 6:20 pm at least gives Venus triplicity rulership. 5:50 pm gives him Pisces rising and Sag on the MC, so there’s plenty of Venus (exaltation in Pisces) and Jupiter savior/martyr/artist/visionary/guru stuff to work with, if one were looking for it. Whole-sign houses for 5:50 give him a 7th house Venus. That would probably work for what many are looking for. I don’t want to sound too cynical (ok, that’s not true), but they had a long and nasty fight at the Tyl forum over this chart (morning birth vs. evening birth, Aries vs. Libra rising). Venus as artist and lover of peace was prominent in the discussion. People seem to commonly want to make him a peace-loving Venusian artist. He was a world-famous showman with a pushy wife. He wrote songs, was usually stoned out of his mind, and made a lot of money. The adoration and adulation is very odd.


Last edited by ### on Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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