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Current 1927 UK Horoscope.

 
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Draco



Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 176
Location: England.

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:28 am    Post subject: Current 1927 UK Horoscope. Reply with quote

If you are interested in national charts, this information may be of interest and importance.

Why do I read everywhere that the mundane chart for the nativity of the United Kingdom is the 1st January 1801? This chart, characterised by a predominantly cold, melancholic temperament is the chart of the 'stiff upper lip' and 'rule Brittania' of the George III and Victorian era and the Britain of WW1. There is a later chart which is arguably more significant.

The UK is made up of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It's official and proper title is, 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland', and this came into general use in 1922, after the constitution of the 'Irish Free State', the former name of what is now the Republic of Ireland.

The whole of Ireland had been united with Great Britain by an act of parliament in 1800, and this took effect on that 1st January 1801. This is the chart still, seemingly exclusively, used by mundane astrologers as the nativity of the UK. However, this union, being so unpopular in Ireland became the target of Irish Nationalist leaders. The union of Great Britain and Ireland of 1801, only lasted until the constitution of the Irish Free State, when the Anglo-Irish Treaty partitioned Ireland into two parts - the Irish Free State and Northern Ireland, with only the latter remaining part of the UK.

Therefore, the United Kingdom of Great Britain, made up of England, Scotland and Wales was expanded to include Northern Ireland and so the nation became 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland', the official title which appears on all British passports. So why still use the 1801 chart, when the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland' actually no longer exists? Considering this, I feel that there is a better, more descriptive and appropriate mundane chart to be used.

The nomenclature of the UK was officially changed at midnight, on April 12th 1927 (set for London), to recognise the departure of the majority of Ireland with the current name 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' being adopted. The country officially changed to it's current constitution at this time and this is the appropriate chart. This is the official title and this is what is on UK passports.

'The UK of GB and Ireland' hasn't existed for nearly 80 years, yet this is the chart always used by astrologers as the UK's mundane horoscope. Of course, there will always appear to be significant progressions, transits and such to the 1801 chart, as there will be to any historical chart of any nation, but really, this is the chart of a former era of the UK, and does not represent it's current incarnation. The 1927 chart is significantly more appropriate for the modern era because then, the UK became the nation as it exists today.

I have raised this issue on other forums, and someone made the interesting point that the official change of nomenclature can be compared to a woman marrying - her name changes, but her horoscope does not change at this moment as a consequence. However, in 1927 when the UK became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, it was much more than a mere name change, it was the offical consolidation of a change in geographical borders. The countries and borders which currently constitute the UK are not the same countries and borders they were then; it fundamentally changed as a state, not merely in name.

The 1801 chart is certainly a very relevant chart for the UK, but is not the basis for the country as it exists today. This is obviously because the countries that constituted the United Kingdom between 1801 and 1927 are now two seperate nations. If the Republic of Ireland is considered to have it's own mundane chart, which of course it has, then how can the 1801 chart be considered to be the most appropriate chart for the UK when it would incorporate what is now a totally separate nation with it's own borders? In a sense this would be to deny the Irish their own national identity, and add something to British identity which is no longer a part of it's national heritage.

I would like to hear the opinion of any Irish nationals upon this issue. I am sure the Irish would consider that our continual use of the 1801 chart as the basis for the British entity as it exists today is irrespective of their independant and separate nationality, not to mention that of the British.

Wikipedia defines the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland' as an 'historical state'. In other words, it is not the state as it exists today, and as such, the 1801 chart is the horoscope of a layer of British history, but surely not the most appropriate horoscope by which modern Britain should be subjected to mundane astrological analysis.

I do not argue that the 1801 chart is none the less a significant British chart. For example, on the British flag, the red diagonal cross saltire of Saint Patrick, patron saint of Ireland was added upon the white cross of Saint Andrew, on the 1st January 1801, as an emblem of Britains union with Ireland as one nation. This is the flag which has been flown ever since, as it was never changed. Being that this is the flag which is still internationally recognised as the emblem of the UK, it is little wonder that the date of it's creation is taken as the mundane reckoning for the UK's chart, and of course it will be of significance. I do not deny this. However, the 1801 horoscope is the chart of the flag, and the former state it represents, not, more appropriately, the state as it exists today.

The 1801 chart is long out of date, however much us Brits may romantically fantasise about the glorious imperial past, it doesn't change the fact that the modern British horoscope is embodied in the chart set for midnight, April 12th, 1927.

Draco Wink
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 800

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Debbie Kempton-Smith used to use the chart of the crowning of William the Conquerer on New Year's Day at noon as the chart for ... was it just England? I don't know. I think she considered it the 'birth of a nation' since the Norman conquest brought about an entire paradigm shift in governance, worldview, etc., which would influence the history of the British Isles thenceforth. But it gave a Capricorn Sun with Aries rising, which (from a Yank's perspective) seems appropriate for the British mien; deeply pragmatic and conservative, but good at fighting! Laughing Otherwise, it's difficult to tell when a nation is 'born'; we have the same debates about the United States, I believe. Does one do a chart every time there is a sea change in politics or a 'territory' (sorry Ireland) is annexed?
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Maurice McCann



Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 27
Location: London

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Draco,
Glad you brought up the subject of the correct horoscope for the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland as I wrote an editorial on this very subject in 2000 when editor of Rťalta, the magazine of the Irish Astrological Association.

Maurice
---------------------

Editorial

Vol 6 No 4. Samhain. November 2000.

Editor: Maurice McCann


I received the following from Peter Berresford Ellis today 3rd October '00, as I was putting the finishing touches to this issue. This is indeed a turn up for the books as no one seems to have suspected that the 1921 horoscope normally used for the UK was never recognised by the Westminster Parliament as the moment of the creation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

The Birth of the Modern United Kingdom

When did the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland legally come into being? It has generally been accepted that the time and date of the legal establishment of the Irish Free State on December 6, 1922
automatically created the new United Kingdom State as well. However, what came into being on December 6 was an all-Ireland state and it was not for another 24 hours that the Unionist representatives in Belfast petitioned King George V to allow the Six Counties to 'withdraw from the Free State', in accordance with a provision of the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921. So is c. 3.30 pm, December 7, 1922, when it is thought George V agreed to that petition, the birth of the new United Kingdom chart?



The answer is more surprising. Because Ireland, both Free State and the Six Counties were both regarded as Crown dominions, no legal changes as to style and title of the United Kingdom State were made until 1927.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland was not born until an Act 17 and 18 Geo 5 c 4, known as the Royal and Parliamentary Titles Act, 1927, which changed the name of the state from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The new style and title came into effect at midnight on April 12, 1927. (See Vol 10, Constitutional Law (Pr2), p.70.)

Yet George VI was still crowned as King of Great Britain and Ireland on May 12, 1937. Ireland was still considered a dominion of the Crown. De Valera's new Constitution, omitting the King as Head of State and replacing the Crown with a President of Ireland (Article 12) did not come into being until July 1, 1937, after the Coronation. Taking notice of the creation of the Irish Republic in 1949, Elizabeth II was crowned as Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland on June 2, 1953. However, the Royal Arms still, as an insult (hopefully unintentional) to Ireland, still quarters the state arms of Ireland, showing a heraldic territorial claim over the entire island of Ireland. Taoiseach Bertie Ahern promised in April 1998, to make representations to the Crown for the removal of Irish State Arms from its subservient position in the Royal Arms, used on all United Kingdom State occasions, on UK passports and all Civil Services and Court documents. It was thought the removal of the quartered arms might come about as a quid pro quo when the Irish State removed Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution, withdrawing the state's territorial claim over the Six Counties. However, the quartered arms remain. Queen Elizabeth has personally stated that the arms remain due to the advice of Parliament. Therefore, it is a political territorial claim over Ireland and not merely a personal heraldic swansong of the monarchy.

------------------
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Draco



Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 176
Location: England.

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Archergirl, thanks for your response.

Quote:
Does one do a chart every time there is a sea change in politics or a 'territory' (sorry Ireland) is annexed?
Shocked

Of course. The disbanding of Ireland was not just a change in politics, it was a change of national status, the UK became something that it was not before, just as it had in 1801, and in 1707 before it.

Formation of the United Kingdom:

3rd of March 1284 - Wales incorporated into England, 'Statute of Rhuddlan'.

1st of May 1707 - Scotland incorporated into England and Wales, forming the Kingdom of Great Britain, 'Acts of Union'.

1st January 1801 - Kingdom of Ireland incorporated into the Kingdom of Great Britain, forming the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, 'Act of Union'.

12th April 1927 - Ireland secedes from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, 'Royal and Parliamentary Titles Act'.

These charts would be set for midnight.

Remember that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, is defined as an historical state, that is, it no longer exists. The nation which in the British now live is represented by the 1927 chart.
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Maurice McCann



Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 27
Location: London

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Draco,
I believe that the 26 counties seceded in 1921, for whatever reason Westminster did not get around to making it official until 1927 when the King signed the document.

Quote:
12th April 1927 - Ireland secedes from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, 'Royal and Parliamentary Titles Act'.


Maurice.
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 800

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to shock with my rhetorical question; but I was unaware of this creation and re-creation of a nation on the basis of annexing. If this was the case, then astrologers would be using very 'new' chart for the United States (like, 1952 or something?) when Hawaii was finally made an 'official' state, and not a territory. But as far as I know, (which is not much Confused ) astrologers are still arguing over the whole 1776/Declaration of Independence era. You learn something new every day...
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Draco



Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 176
Location: England.

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Maurice, thanks for responding.

I'm glad that somebody is supporting this argument. Wherever I have raised this issue before it has been rubbished, as if I am speaking about politics and not facts, or a mere change of name.

When I first encountered the 1801 chart as the mundane horoscope for the UK, I did some homework and immediately recognised that there was something wrong. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland does not exist, and to use this chart is irrespective of the fact that the Irish Republic is not British, yet the 1801 chart holds claim that it is, which is the case for 1801, but not the case officially since 1927.

Quote:
Taoiseach Bertie Ahern promised in April 1998, to make representations to the Crown for the removal of Irish State Arms from its subservient position in the Royal Arms, used on all United Kingdom State occasions, on UK passports and all Civil Services and Court documents. It was thought the removal of the quartered arms might come about as a quid pro quo when the Irish State removed Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution, withdrawing the state's territorial claim over the Six Counties. However, the quartered arms remain. Queen Elizabeth has personally stated that the arms remain due to the advice of Parliament. Therefore, it is a political territorial claim over Ireland and not merely a personal heraldic swansong of the monarchy.


I was actually not aware of this, but looking at my passport, this is indeed the case. I can see how this may perhaps be seen as a political claim over Ireland by the British state. So could the fact that the red diagonal cross saltire of St. Patrick was never dropped from the Union Jack, the flag that indeed has a mundane horoscope in the 1801 chart, but representing a nation that does not. So could the fact that astrologers continually use the 1801 chart which represents an historical state and not a modern nation, and is irrespective of the fact that the Republic of Ireland has a horoscope of it's own. If the Irish Republic has it's own horoscope, then so does the UK of GB and NI, which by definition, cannot, by any sleight of mind be appropriately considered to be embodied in the 1801 chart which incorporates the whole of Ireland and Britain as a single entity, a nation which hasn't existed for eighty years.

With regard to your previous post:

I ought to have put that Ireland 'officially' secedes from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
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Maurice McCann



Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 27
Location: London

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Draco,
One point regarding the red diagonal cross saltire of St. Patrick, in Ireland, to the best of my knowledge, it has never been used. I suspect that it was an invention by the British government to conveniently fit the flag in 1801. It would be interesting to find out where it originated.

Maurice.
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Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for pointing this out. I hadnít considered it before now, but I think youíve made a good point here.
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Draco



Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 176
Location: England.

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Thanks for pointing this out. I hadnít considered it before now, but I think youíve made a good point here.


Cheers Deb. Wink

Maurice,

Quote:
One point regarding the red diagonal cross saltire of St. Patrick, in Ireland, to the best of my knowledge, it has never been used. I suspect that it was an invention by the British government to conveniently fit the flag in 1801. It would be interesting to find out where it originated.


I'm sure where it originated exactly, but it would seem probable that it was invented by the British:

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ie-stpat.html

None the less, regardless of whether the Patrick Cross was created by the Irish to represent themselves or by the British to represent the Irish, it still represents Ireland, so why was it not dropped from the flag in 1927? This explains why so many are ignorant of the 1927 chart, because the British government seem never to have accepted the independance of Ireland, and as such, the appropriate chart for the UK has never permeated British conciousness. Perhaps you are right, and the British government do lay a symbolic claim over Ireland for all the reasons previously mentioned, which admittedly I had not considered before, but so do astrologers who exclusively use the 1801 chart, which surely isn't the most appropriate chart to be using.

Archergirl,

Quote:
If this was the case, then astrologers would be using very 'new' chart for the United States (like, 1952 or something?) when Hawaii was finally made an 'official' state


This is really a very good point to make, and I won't just sweep this issue under the carpet. I am probably about to gunned down by a mob of infuriated Americans now, but perhaps the chart for Hawaii really is a more appropriate chart to use for events pertaining to modern America, because after all, when Hawaii joined the US, this of course changed the US. It changed culturally and geographically and in it's identity, an extra star was added to the banner and the US became something more than it was previously, a new layer had been added to America, and I am of the belief that as new layers are added to nations as they expand and contract that the chart for that latest layer is always the most significant relating to events after that time. To me, it seems that this should go without saying.

Of course, of course, the charts for the Declaration of Independance in America will always be very significant charts indeed - but in a certain context, as this represents America as it was and not how it is today, and although the old eighteenth century charts will provide some significant insight into events in America, albeit related to the nations birth and not to its current state, the Hawaii chart and how it relates astrologically to events in modern America remains to be explored, because no one seems to have bothered looking into this yet, too busy bickering over whether the historical 1776 chart should have Sagittarius or Gemini rising.

Remember, I think that the USA only consisted of thirteen states when the Declaration of Independance was signed, so according to the 1776 chart(s), the other forty seven states do not constitute part of America and the people who dwell in them are not Americans. Strange how the 1776 charts are supposed to be the charts representing the 'United States of America', when such charts do not recognise the majority of the states that the nation is actually composed of.

I consider the Hawaii chart to be the most appropriate mundane horoscope for modern America, for pretty much the same reasons as I consider the GB & NI horoscope to be the most appropriate for modern Britain - these charts recognise the nations as they exist today.

Considering the Hawaii chart as the chart representing the USA as it exists today, is inclusive of every state in America, inclusive of every American living in all member states, is respectful of the addition to American culture and the change in it's geography, and recognises all fifty stars in the banner.

I set this chart, of course, for Washington DC, and the time of midnight, for usually when such and such a thing is decided by a goverment to come into effect on such and such a date, then as soon as that date comes around, at midnight, the intention is effected. This is why so many mundane charts are set for midnight, for it is the date which is laden with significance, rather than a specific time on that date.

This is the most appropriate chart to use to represent modern America, and I won't be looking back:

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