I?ve often wondered why ?traditional? astrologers refer to the 5th house for issues of creativity. It recently came up here again on one of the threads. There is traditionally no support for such a practice. It seems to be a modern practice that has become firmly entrenched and accepted. So far as I can tell the house=sign belief which is rejected now by most traditional astrologers has been continued in this case. The solar will and creative power by way of Leo would appear to be what people are referring to.

The 5th house is the house of Venus? joy, but Venus seems a weak candidate for determining the house placement of creativity. Creativity is an active principle, an outward drive. Venus is the appreciation of aesthetic values, but nocturnal/feminine Venus seems too passive for the push of creativity. In the 5th house we find things that are pleasing and pleasurable, but that doesn?t necessarily have much to do with creativity and creative expression.

If we wanted a house to signify creativity the 1st house seems a much better choice. The 1st is a positive house indicating the person in action in the world and expressing him/herself. Curious and expressive Mercury?s association through its joy there is more active and productive than Venus.

But I think the ultimate mistake is in placing creativity in one house. Other houses have plenty to add: The 5th and 9th house trines to the Ascendant could indicate flow of expression; the solitude of the 12th could provide the perfect conditions for a creative outburst; the tension of opposition from the Descendant could have its effect. But, we may need to forget houses and go all the way back to the Solar/Lunar principles. In other words, creativity itself probably isn?t much of a house issue at all.

The OED Shorter states that the noun ?creativity? first appeared in the late 19th Century. That would match well chronologically with post-traditional astrologers placing creativity with the Sun/Leo/5th house complex. One possible reason for creativity being linked to the 5th: With all the metaphysical and Theosophical interest in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries, perhaps the children on ?The Sun? Tarot card contributed to the linkage of positive/active/Solar creative powers to the astrological 5th house signification of children.

One point I didn?t state clearly:
The concept of ?personal creativity? is modern and was placed in one house of the chart following modern astrological reasoning.

Hi Kirk,

I agree that 5th is not the house of creativity. When I was still modern (and now I am the ancient one - I thought I saw white hairs on my head this morning!), I used to think that 5th = creativity because 5th H = 5th sign of the zodiac = Leo = Creativity (just like you mentioned).

Some associations that I can think of (that I use in my practice):-

In Vedic astrology the 1, 5, 9 are the Dharma houses (auspicious houses) because of their trinal relationship to Asc (not counting Asc itself of course!). They are also called trikona houses which is of course the Greek equivalent to trigonal...Hence, they (5 and 9) are houses that bring pleasures - "higher" pleasures i.e. pleasures of the soul (9th because it is above the horizon) and "lower" pleasures i.e. pleasures of the body (5th because it is below the horizon).

Hence, it is first and foremost, the house of pleasures (Venus finds Joy in this house, Venus is the co-significator as Chaldean ruler, and 5th H is trine to 1st) as Tom has mentioned. The greatest pleasures of the body (according to the ancients) is children hence the relationship of 5th to children. [The natural significatos of children = Jupiter which also implies that the ancients thought that children bring great benefic to oneself). The other forms of pleasures include sexual pleasures (what else is new), sensual pleasures, gaming (if you do it for pleasures, if you're a professional sportsman then it is the 10th).

Classical astrologers also put honors/accomplishments (as it is one of the pleasures one can receive), places of pleasures (taverns, banquets, see Lilly), and of course all forms of entertainment...

Where then creativity? Currently, I prefer to use algorithms to determine creativity (I mean I don't specifically point creativity to a house). Good planet (benefic in good zodiacal sign) placed in the first is definitely one candidate. Good benefics in good zodiacal signs connected (ruling) the angular houses may point to a creative native, BUT creativity alone does not guarantee success in this world. You might be creative (good planets ruling angles in good zodiacal state) and yet not effective (because there are a lot of slavery indications in the chart i.e. lots of cadency and not aspecting angles)... Just have a look at Vincent Van Gogh's chart - lots of creativity (good planets, good zodiacal state) yet not effective (many slavery indications and candency). He sold only one painting in his lifetime and to his brother!

I was in the middle of writing a post and lost it so I'll try again. I have to disagree that creativity was placed in the 5th for modern reasons of Leo=5th house. No traditional astrologer ascribes to this method. Creativity might be a modern word - English is a modern language. However, the concept has been around forever and so have words to describe it. I had written something similar to Tom along the lines that it is the definition of creativity that is the problem not the house placement. Many of the difficulties associated with house placement involve a misunderstanding of the language. In one reproduction of a Roman chart showing the houses it simply had 'filii' for the 5th house, which means 'sons'. I have actually heard people argue that daughters must be a different house.

I think there is a precedent in traditional astrology for placing such a thing in the 5th house. I am pretty sure Lilly placed plays in the 5th house although I will have to check on that. He may have meant it as an example of pleasure. However, plays are creative. In the Latin language, the words for creativity are the same as the words for giving birth (a 5th house issue). Some Latin words that mean creative:

prodere: bring forth, produce, give birth to, create.

parere: give birth to, bring forth, beget, create.

fingere: create, compose, shape, weave, invent.

These can be found in any Latin dictionary. Interestingly, Cicero uses the word fingere (he meant weave) to argue that astrology is fatalistic.

There may be certain aspects of creativity that belong in another house, for example, recognition for what one creates may belong in the 10th house. However, in terms of one's desire to create and the pleasure one gets from the creative process, I think it belongs in the 5th house. Of course, the process involves Venus but this is separate. It is sometimes quite difficult to come up with the language that has meant the same in traditional times and sometimes traditional concepts do not translate well to modern times. But we cannot assume that history is linear and that as we get more modern everything changes. It doesn't.

Although Morin does not use the word "creativity" he is very clear in ascribing creative power to the triplicity of being and life (house 1, 9, 5) in his article on the Cabal of the Twelve House. According to Morin the Ascendant represents the very creation of the entity whose horoscope we are viewing, its coming into being. He goes on to say:

"The First Triplicity is of the Angle of the East, (which they name the First House, and belongeth to Child-hood) called the Triplicity of Being and Life: the other houses of this Triplicity are the Ninth and Fifth, both which do behold the first house by a Partile Trine Aspects in the Aequator, where is made this rational Division of the Houses.

For, Man liveth on a three-fold respect, in himself, in God, and in his Posterity. But the First Life is onely given a Man for other Causes, viz. That he might worship God, and beget his own likeness: Which is the compleat intention of God in the production of Man.

1. Now as touching the Life of Man in itself (because it is the first of all other things in the Order of Nature, and without it the rest could not be: therefore) it justly challengeth the principal House of the Triplicity viz. The Angle of the East

2. Life in God (the second in order) exists in the house of religion viz. the Ninth, subsequent to the First House in this Triplicity according to the Motion of the Aequator.

3. And lastly, Life in his Posterity, bestowed on the house of Children, which is the fifth. Wherefore this whole Triplicity concerneth Life."

So it is not farfetched to say that the 5th is connected with our creativity (or generativity). In the first we are born, we come into being. In the 9th we live in God. And in the 5th we live on through our progency, whom we create, whether they be our actual children or our symbolic creatiions. According to Morin, it is God's intention that humans create (beget) their own likeness through their 5th house activity.

Astrojin wrote:

Classical astrologers also put honors/accomplishments [in the 5th house]

Honors and accomplishments would be 10th house. See Morinus Book XXI. They might be pleasurable to receive, but they are the product of action.

Sue wrote:

I think there is a precedent in traditional astrology for placing such a thing in the 5th house. I am pretty sure Lilly placed plays in the 5th house although I will have to check on that. He may have meant it as an example of pleasure. However, plays are creative.

I think the idea of plays and the fifth house is that of pleasure or joy. Children are supposed to be a pleasure and they are created from an act of pleasure.

Morinus said the grand trine of houses begining with the ASC were all the things of life. Man lived in himself, (ASC) in his God (9th) and in his children which are created by man in the image of God in accordance with God's will.

From Answers.com

cre?ate (krē-āt') pronunciation
tr.v., -at?ed, -at?ing, -ates.

1. To cause to exist; bring into being. See synonyms at found1.
2. To give rise to; produce: That remark created a stir.
3. To invest with an office or title; appoint.
4. To produce through artistic or imaginative effort: create a poem; create a role.

adj. Archaic.

Created.

[Middle English createn, from Latin creāre, creāt-.]

All of the old texts associate the 5th house with children. We cause children to exist. There is no other way for children to be brought into existence other than by the action of other humans. It seems to me that therefore anything we cause to exist would be fifth house. So if we cause music, or sculpture, or paintings to exist they too would fall under the dominion of the 5th house, but perhaps not exclusively 5th house.

Honors are not created by the recipient. The activity that resulted in the honors is of the recipient.

Tom

Thank you for the replies, everyone.

?To create? and ?creation? are very old words and ideas. But the idea of personal creativity seems quite modern. I have nothing to back this up with, but I have the impression that before the 18th Century talk would more likely have been along the lines of ?creative actions? or of being of a ?creative nature? rather than of a person having creativity. ?Creativity? has been part of the jargon of the Human Potential and New-Age movements of the past few decades. Since that time we have learned to look for creativity as a desirable quality. Popular psychological discussion created the demand; I think astrologers then supplied a chart house placement for it.

The 5th as a part of the creative experience does seem possible. Tony?s post fits with what occurred to me while out walking: With the 1st, 5th, and 9th house trigon we have the joys of Mercury, Venus and Sun. Those seem like likely planetary factors for creativity. But I?m sure this is the temptation of simplicity beckoning.

I think we need to be cautious about linking Venusian aesthetic experience too tightly with creativity. A response to something isn?t the same as creative action. For example, the dynamic principle that makes me aware of the beauty of a sunset is not the same dynamic principle that will make me go home and paint or poetically describe it. The Venus factor gets me to stop, notice and appreciate the sunset, but I don?t think it?s the same factor that will put me in action to prolong, enlarge or extend the experience through creative action. There needs to be something else in order to direct that experience outward. And Venusian pleasure comes up short: Writing a novel or composing a symphony aren't necessarily pleasant and pleasurable experiences, nor can they be counted on as ways to have fun.

But here I am trying to analyze and describe creativity! My point is that Venus with her 5th house joy just isn?t enough to allow us to look at someone?s 5th house for a clear indication of their creativity. The interpretation we get from such a procedure would be faulty due to its incompleteness.

Hello,

To Tom:-
I know one astrologer who uses third triplicity ruler of the 5th as honors... and she is quite good in her prediction... though the usual correspondence for third trip ruler of fifth = emissary




Also... do have a look at:-

http://home.online.no/~stebi/5thhouse.htm

I need to correct myself. In my first post I wrote ?the solitude of the 12th could provide the perfect conditions for a creative outburst?. Yes, but that isn?t creativity itself. The 12th could provide the setting or opportunity for creativity, but being a passive house which doesn?t aspect the Ascendant it hardly seems like a good candidate for the act of creativity. The same could be said for the 6th and 8th - other houses that don't aspect the Ascendant. The 2nd might work since it?s the next house to ascend, but I think all this is still looking for something that isn?t a house matter. Assigning creativity to houses is like looking to the 5th and 7th houses for a description of how a person expresses love because those are the houses of romance and marriage.

To be honest, I have never seen a traditional astrologer attribute 'creativity' to the 5th house in the way you are describing. I think it is semantics to say that 'creative actions' or 'having a creative nature' is different from a person having creativity. As I pointed out earlier, the Latin language uses the same words for to create as it does to give birth. But I do not recall the 5th house being used in this way and I haven't used it myself. It is certainly the house that modern astrologers use but I haven't seen any real evidence that traditional astrologers have slipped into the house=sign belief by using the 5th for creativity.

...I haven't used it myself

I won't tell anyone where to find it.




Oh, that was naughty of me!