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Latin terminology & other inexplicables in Dee's Diary

 
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SGFoxe



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 274
Location: Chicago, IL

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:57 pm    Post subject: Latin terminology & other inexplicables in Dee's Diary Reply with quote

April 22, 1555 Jane Fromond borne at Cheyham ([i]where is that? not in my atlas[/i]) at none, I[i] assume this is 12 pm lmt[/i]

August 1, 1555, Edward Kelly [b]natus horus quarta a meridie Wigornie[/b] -- what time is that? & where is Wigornie

June 23, 1563 Jane Cooper, now Mystris Kelly, toward evening. [i]Where?, I'm using 4:30 pm LMT[/i]

Writing a paper "Dr. Dee, Dr. Faustus & the Assassination of Christopher Marlowe" -- my conjecture for Marlowe's birth is Feb 7, 1564 NS -- just about at the full moon, yielding 12 AQ rising w/Mercury in 12th --

Really appreciate your info. Thanks in advance.

Sonja Foxe
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Sonja,

Sorry I can't help with the Latin. Every source I checked online lists Marlowe's Birthdate as Feb 6, 1564, and his baptism as Feb 26, 1664. None of my sources specified NS or OS. Since the baptism is from a recorded document and since England didn't go on the Gregorian caledar for quite some time after Marlowe, I'd lean towards OS.

In The Astrologer's Apprentice No. 8 Marlowe's birthdata is given as follows without a source: Feb 6, 1564, 4:00 am LMT, Canterbury, OS, 23 Sagittarius rises. The article is a fun read regardless of whether or not we accept the date and time.

Tom
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Kim Farnell



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 256

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
April 22, 1555 Jane Fromond borne at Cheyham (where is that? not in my atlas) at none, I assume this is 12 pm lmt


Cheyham is the old spelling for Cheam and "none" is noon.

Quote:
August 1, 1555, Edward Kelly natus horus quarta a meridie Wigornie -- what time is that? & where is Wigornie



Fourth hour in the afternoon (4 pm). Old form of Worcester.


Quote:
June 23, 1563 Jane Cooper, now Mystris Kelly, toward evening. Where?, I'm using 4:30 pm LMT


Joan Cooper, Chipping Norton.
http://www.johndee.org/charlotte/Chapter6/6p2.html
Why 4:30 pm? That's too early for evening in June.


I think I may have data on Marlowe somewhere, but could take a while to seek it out...

Kim

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SGFoxe



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
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Location: Chicago, IL

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you so very much.

Sonja Foxe
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SGFoxe



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
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Location: Chicago, IL

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:42 pm    Post subject: Thanks again Reply with quote

Tom, I'm using NS for Marlowe because one of the biographers said he could have been born anytime between Jan 15 & Feb 25 1564 OS -- I like the full Leo Moon because of his dramaturgy & if one does a converse progression to his death the lunar CAP/CAN eclipse some 29 days before this hypothetical b-date addresses the circumstances of his death.

Isn't interesting how Marlowe's death resonates with the current murdered spy -- Litvinenko?

Kim, would you suggest for a 7:30-8 pm birthtime for Joan Cooper?
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Kim Farnell



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Kim, would you suggest for a 7:30-8 pm birthtime for Joan Cooper?


I take it you're thinking of sunset? I don't know Dee's diaries well enough to take more than an educated guess, it depends how he uses the word "evening" and whether there's any other suggestive text. (For example, if he uses "sunset" differently as a word.) However, I'd be tempted towards just before 6 pm on the basis that by then vespers would rely on clock time rather than unequal hours, therefore be at 6pm, and is an alternative expression for evening.

The issue with Marlowe's dob isn't so much which calendar (it would definitely be OS in 1564) so much as year. It's possible that Dee used 1 January for the new year, but also that he used the old year dates so the new year starts at 25 March. That would mean that 1564 under this system could actually be 1565 as we calculate it. But again, I don't know the text well enough and would have to look more closely. (I'd guess 1 Jan as he was a protestant with a bee in his bonnet about calendars but maybe you know this.)

Forget that - It seems from Charlotte Fell Smith's biography of Dee that he'd use Jan 1 as the new year. I've left the above in case anyone else points it out.
http://altreligion.about.com/library/texts/bl_johndee59.htm

I'll try to find my own notes on Marlowe, which are hiding somewhere as soon as I have a few spare seconds.

Kim
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SGFoxe



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kim, thanks so much.

I cast the corrected 'scopes, and still could not find Cheam ... not in my atlas.

My justification for the "NS" for Marlowe was supposing when he was abroad on a mission for Seething Lane that his birthdate was translated into NS for some reason or another, admittedly very speculative on my part -- however, none of his biographers has anything better to offer -- just the baptism date Feb 26 1564 OS is documented.

Sonja
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SGFoxe



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:34 pm    Post subject: CHEAM Reply with quote

Found it on Wikipedia
51.347863224903904 North; 0.2113740 West
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Kim Farnell



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I cast the corrected 'scopes, and still could not find Cheam ... not in my atlas.


It's near Sutton in Surrey (or Balham in London depending on which end and your point of view). Latitude 51.360918, longitude -0.218809. It's there, honest Very Happy

Kim
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Kim Farnell



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simultaneous posting - and I see you're at the other end of Cheam, if I get really bored I'll work out which of us is at the posh end

Kim Very Happy
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1635
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

somehow your last remark reminded me of a tootsie pop commercial, posh on the inside, sweet hard crust on the outside...

HOw many licks does it take to get tot he center of a tootsie pop? the world may never know...

(tootsie pop's are a candy, for those that may live where they dont have them)

Granny
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