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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Mystery Chart No. 1
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3509
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:21 pm    Post subject: Mystery Chart No. 1 Reply with quote

In an effort to practice some astrology, not only talk about it, Mark F made a suggestion that we post a mystery chart and ask members to make some observations based on the chart. We re NOT looking to identify the individual, so if anyone recognizes the data, please withhold what you know and wait for a chart that you don’t recognize. We’re looking for things like describing physical appearance, career or type of career, marriage(s) if any, siblings, if any, children if any, health issues, honors, dishonors etc. Death may or may not be relevant, but if the chart is a long time ago, and someone wants to try it, predict a death date. No one will mind. It is not necessary to post a complete delineation; in fact it is probably better if we don’t do that. If you are interested in vocational astrology, take a stab at the career. If you like relationships, look at the marriage. Is medical astrology your cup of tea, then why not give health issues a whirl?

The purpose of this exercise is to delineate, not criticize. There is plenty of other space to discuss and critique technique on the Forum. Therefore, we would prefer that discussion and critique of a particular point raised on this thread be taken elsewhere. Questions, for the purpose of eliciting information are perfectly acceptable. Criticism, no matter how well intended, is not welcome. If a member is not impressed with a particular technique or understanding of a technique then he or she should put up his or her own, not go after someone who posted a thought or idea.

We would like to limit delineations to verifiable events and conditions. Things like “problems with his parents,” are not helpful since everyone on earth has problems with their parents at some time or other. On the other hand a statement such as, “Left home at about age 16 after altercation with father,” or even “raised by wolves in an abandoned NYC subway station” is acceptable as long as there is supporting testimony. Completely irrelevant remarks and suspicion of cheating will result in immediate deletion of the posts - probably without explanation. Please support all contentions with astrological evidence, i.e. techniques and explanations, unless it is painfully obvious. If someone wants to cheat and goes birthday hunting remember, if you’re discovered your shame will be great, and you will have accomplished nothing, except temporarily bolstering your own pitiful ego.

Placidus is the most commonly used house system, but anything is welcome. Please identify your house system for the benefit of the group. Mistakes are welcome and a post mortem is also a good idea before moving on to another chart. That will be done on another thread. This is wide open so do not feel you must limit yourself to what is mentioned. We’ll accept delineations that include the outer three, but let’s avoid asteroids, Chiron, hypothetical planets, etc on this particular forum.

Remember there are all levels of knowledge on this site from beginners to famous professionals and published authors. Be kind, but be brave. This is good opportunity for beginners to work with experienced astrologers. Errors will not result in fines.

Finally the selection of subjects is mine. I’ll probably be biased towards Americans, so feel free to send me your preferences off list, if you wish. My choices will range from saints to sinners, famous and infamous, historical and contemporary. It probably isn’t possible to find less than obvious charts that are internationally well known, so it is possible that someone will have no idea who the subject is even after revelation. This happened to me once. I worked and worked on a mystery chart and when the native was announced, I had never heard of him, but my delineation wasn’t bad, and that was the point of the exercise.

I’ll post the name of the native on a separate thread on or about Friday, December 1. This way if someone wishes to work with the chart after that, they may avoid “peeking” until they’re done and others can discover identity at their leisure. We can critique what was written on the second thread and people can read that at their leisure.

Remember we are trying to describe the individual and perhaps some events in his or her life, not identify him. While it is perfectly all right to suggest the native is a gangster, it is not acceptable to say, “I think it’s Dutch Shultz.” Mostly let’s have some fun, and keep it light.

Let’s start with this one:

Male
July 10, 1943
12:55 PM EWT (Eastern War Time) + 4hrs
Richmond, VA, USA
37 N 33’ 13”
77 W 27’ 38”


Tom.




Last edited by Tom on Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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sigma4



Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 116

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom,

I believe this a very good idea and a great opportunity for everyone to do some practice with charts in natal astrology.

May I offer that you also give additionally the asc of Mr/Ms Mystery, so that everyone will be sure whether or not s/he is correct, and won't waste time around a false (different than what you intended it to be) chart.

Cheers,
Sigma
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3509
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent suggestion. The ASC of this mystery chart is 11 Libra 28 according to my software. Other programs may vary by a minute or so. And for the record the MC is 12 Cancer 55.

Thanks Sigma.

Tom
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Finland

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom,

Would you please give the day and year too...?
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3509
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hi Tom,

Would you please give the day and year too...?


Why? Do you need that? Sorry It got cut off when I cut and pasted.

Here is all the data again. I'll edit the original post.

Male
July 10, 1943
12:55 PM EWT + 4hrs
Richmond, VA, USA
37 N 33’ 13”
77 W 27’ 38”

Sorry about that.

Tom
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's Jimi Hendrix! Do I win the prize?
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Booooo and it isn't.
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TonyLouis



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 79

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I run the data through Solar Fire, it gives EST rather than EWT as active in Richmond VA on that date. Do you know if EWT was used in Virginia in July 1943?
PS: This may be a bug in Solar Fire 6 with the built-in ACS atlas.
When I enter "Richmond" VA it gives EST, but if I enter "richmond" VA (small "r") it gives EWT.
How odd!

PS: I rebooted my computer and the strange action around entering Richmond in Solar Fire cleared up. I have no idea what happened but it now gives EWT. Sorry about any confusion.


Last edited by TonyLouis on Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tony,

According to my printed version of the America Atlas, 1978, Virginia went on Eastern War Time on Feb 9, 1942 and went back to standard time on September 30, 1945.

I don't know if this has anything to do with SF 6.0 atlas, but cities in Virginia are separate from the counties (or they were when I went to school there a while ago), and there is a Richmond county as well as a Richmond City. I believe Maryland government is set up the same way. However both the city and the county went on war time and back to standard on the above dates.

Tom
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AlexMc



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 55
Location: USA

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Virginia went on Eastern War Time on Feb 9, 1942 and went back to standard time on September 30, 1945.


Ditto what Tom says here about EWT. By an Act of the United States Congress War Time was observed nationwide during these dates - it was federal law.

In addition, my printed copy of Time Changes in the United States (1966) gives the same dates for Virginia as well as for every other state.

Very strange for Solar Fire's ACS atlas to have a DST/WT quirk there - thanks for the heads up.
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TonyLouis



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 79

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
We would like to limit delineations to verifiable events and conditions.


In rectifying charts I generally start by considering planets close to angles because they will indicate events in early life by primary direction or secondary progression. In this chart we have the Sun close the the MC and the Moon close to the ASC. Eyeballing the chart, I would estimate a significant event involving the parents about age 5 or 6 as the luminaries cross the angles by primary direction. Given the close square between the sun and moon, I would expect this event to be stressful. Because the Moon naturally rules the mother and also rules the 10th cusp, which traditionally signifies the mother, and the sun is in the 10th (the mother), I would expect this event to have affected the person's mother quite profoundly.

Solar Fire gives the following direct primaries for conjuntions to angles in early life:
(direct primary directions at a rate of one degree RA on MC = 1 year)
MC conj Mercury Dec 47
Sun conj MC July 48
Moon conj ASC Sept 49

Mercury rules the natal 9th, which is the derived 12th of the mother, so she may have become ill at that time. The sun rules the natal 11th, which (as Morin noted) is the 8th of the 4th, representing the death of a parent. The natal ASC is the 4th of the 10th, so could also signify the mother's death. I woud suspect that this person's mother became seriously ill or may even have died when he or she was about 6 years old.

Since the Sun and Moon are natally square, we should also consider when the MC squares the Moon by converse primary direction. Solar Fire gives this as:
MC cPm square Moon Nov 1950.

This is the last primary direction involving this natal sun/moon square in this person's childhood, so whatever befell the mother would have been completed by the end of 1950 (by age 7).

PS: The reason I start with estimating hits and events from planets very close to angles (if they occur) is to get a sense of whether I'm working with a radical chart. If the person tells me that nothing happened in early life that is analogous to the hits in the chart, I suspect that I do not have an accurate birth time. I then ask them to double check the birth time before spending a lot of time on the wrong chart.


Last edited by TonyLouis on Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:46 am; edited 2 times in total
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony,

I can't thank you enough for that last post. I had hoped that this topic would be a learning excercise for me, and your one post alone did more than I had hoped for.

I'm trying to learn some basic techniques, where to start, how to get a handle on a chart. I had thought to start with the temperament, which I figure is very sanguine. But even I know that once having stated that, it doesn't really say much about the person. Roughly a quarter of the people on earth are sanguine.
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1393

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

did he marry ? because it seens to me that it was a very unhappy marriage.
If he did, I would guess that it was between Mar 1959 and may 1960
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you tell us where you see that? It's not that I am disagreeing with you, I'm just interested in your technique. There is a "no disagreeing" rule for this topic that Tom and I came up, and whew, does that feel good!
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 469

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

Using paran stars method to delineate his life(orb of 0 deg and 30 min):-

The moon is in paran relationship with rukbat (star lower):-

Rukbat is stance of the archer and the stance of the archer has to be strong and (more importantly) steady. This suggests a person of who can endeavor harsh things in life, one who steadily face the difficulties of life and fight back with constant "steadiness" - God! my english!.

Mercury and Jupiter is in paran relationship with Scheat (the thinker), which suggests a person who goes for intellectual pursuit especially during the early (star rise with Jupiter) and later part of his life (star sets with Mercury).

Mercury is also in paran relationship with the Persian Royal star Fomalhaut (star rise) which may mean that the native strives for artistic expression during his early years (he may wanted to be a poet/singer/performer of some kind when he was young but somehow this is not seen/manifested as Mercury is combust and is also ruler of 12th).

Now, the rest of the stars that have paran relationship with the traditional planets are active during his later years suggesting his public "appearance" and fame/notoriety came late...

He has 4 stars that anticulminate (indications of expression in late part of life and after death), AlRisha with Mercury, Castor, Agena and Thuban with Mars. AlRisha is bringing things together (uniting the opposites), Castor is the star of wanting a voice, Agena is sacrifice for a cause, and Thuban is the star of protector. All these suggest that at later part of his life (and after death he would be remembered for this) he could be gathering something (AlRisha) or calling to the public (Castor) in order to protect something (Thuban) for a cause (Agena) and he is probably the victim or protecting victims of (Agena) ...?

With Venus in paran to Alcyone (star of seven weeping sisters), there is something to cry about during his prime time (coupled with Venus in fall...)


Length of life:-

Hyleg is unmistakenly sun, making moon alchocoden as dispositor of sun that is making a tight square aspect to the sun. The benefics do not cnj, trine or sextile the moon (within orb) and the malefics do not cnj, square or oppose the moon - suggests a long life (108 years) if he is not pushed over the cliff, or run over by chariots, or contract anything from others, or meet with an accident... With strong hyleg and Achocoden we would expect someone who is strong and full of life...

but

the ruler of the ASC is Venus who happens to be the ruler of the 8th (death) AND the first triplicity ruler of 8th (meaning death by many medieval astrologers) AND Venus is fall in Virgo AND Mars is located in the house of death (whole sign) AND Mars is detriment AND according to Abu Ali al-Khayyat, Moon kills when she is in the 1st house (?) AND Moon is exalted ruler of 8th house - these do not bode well with his longevity. With Venus (fall) ruler and first trip ruler of 8th and Mars (detriment) located in 8th (whole sign), the manner surroundings his death is due to other person (Mars is also ruler of 7th) and can also be due to corrupted pleasures (Venus in Virgo)...

So Venus, Moon and probably Mars are important key planets to watch for his longevity. Though Alchocoden gives a long life, "accidents" could happen to nullify this...

We would naturally look at the primary direction of moon or venus to cnj/sqr/opp malefics...

One glance would alert us to the primary direction of moon (in the first house and exalted ruler of 8th) to conj Venus (ruler of 8th plus 1st trip ruler of 8th plus ruler of 1st H) - which happens at late 1992.

Progressed Moon also conj Pluto in 1992 and later Venus in 1994.

Transit Saturn oppose venus in 1994

Looking at his Fridaria, late 1992 is also Saturn/Moon period (moon being emphasized).

Wow!!! I wonder if he even survives 1992-1994 period - must have been hell for him.
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