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Mystery Chart No. 1
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astrojin,

What is the "paran stars method"? Briefly please, just the basic idea. I'm not sure about this term.

*************************************************
My only thoughts about the career of the person is that it's most likely represented by Mercury, as of the three that Lilly talks about, Venus for the arts, Mars for labor and military, and Mercury for letters, only Mercury is angular, and more than that it's in the 10th house. 10th house cusp also has Sirius on it. So the person's carrer could be as a writer, a thinker, maybe even a scientist.

I feel I don't have much to say after what everyone else has contributed.
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 469

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

To MarkF:-

The paran stars method is the one outlined in detail by Bernadette Brady. She is currently giving Fixed star course in addition to her medieval astrology class. You can also refer to her bok "Brady's Book of Fixed Stars".

Basically, there are 2 methods that we can use when applying fixed stars.

1) The projected to the ecliptic method.
2) The visual paran method.

The projected via the ecliptic method is the one many modern and traditional astrologers use(d). When they say that a planet conjuncts a star e.g. I have Mercury conj Aldebaran, what they are effectively saying is that; "if I were to project both the star aldebaran and the planet Mercury onto the ecliptic, they would be in conjunction" - within orb that they specify.

But those who follow the second method (which is probably the more ancient method as it is very "visual") would say:-

Now, it is fine that you project the planets onto the ecliptic as they are "tied" to the ecliptic" (within certain celestial latitude - of course). The zodiacal stars are also tied to the ecliptic, hence projected onto ecliptic does not give so much difference. It is those stars that have very large celestial latitude that poses problem. If you were to say that Sirius (the brightest fixed star) conjuncts a planet, any planet is close to the ecliptic but Sirius is currently about 40 deg south of ecliptic. If you were to look up in the sky they are not effectively "conjunct" - they are quite far apart!

Also, in latitudes above approximately 73 deg N (90 minus the declination of Sirius or 90 - 17 = 73), Sirius never rises, hence Sirius would not (according to the ancients that follow the visual paran method) have any effect on you.

For the ancients (and those who follow the visual paran methods), we look to the planets and the stars that are in paran relationship to each other, e.g. when a star culminates or rises or sets or aniculminates and a planet also culminates or rises or sets or anticulminate, we say that they are in paran relationship to each other. So when you see (really see) a star rises and another planet culminates they are in paran relationship - in more modern terms they are in square aspect in mundo.
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To all who have responded with delineations thus far, this is what we're looking for. Thank you. My only concern is that such high level stuff might frighten off beginners and intermediates. I hope not, and to that end I have a suggestion, borrowing a little from Tony's post, for less experienced astrologers.

I saw Bernadette Brady do this to great effect with a class she was teaching. Her intent was to take the charts of members of the class and discuss them. It isn't possible to do full delineations of each and every class member, so she took a tight aspect in a chart and discussed it in conjunction with the Fixed Stars which was the topic of the workshop. It isn't necessary to bring in the fixed stars, (its OK though) but others may wish to simply take an aspect and look at rulerships, the type of aspect and anything else to bring it to life. Force yourself to think hard about what it could mean. If you're wrong you'll learn why. No one learns anything by being right

Books are not the best way to learn. Working with charts is. So members of all levels please feel free to participate.

Thank you all again.

Tom

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Deb
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom

I put a copy of the chart into your first post and I'll drop it in again here.

If anyone would like to see a copy of the chart with the essential dignities and sequence of aspects, the full chart reprentation (horary style with Placidus cusps) is given as an image in this word document which can be opened and printed or downloaded: http://skyscript.co.uk/mystery1.doc


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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astrojin,

I understand what you said about the paran star method. Are you directing the stars to the planets, or the planets to the stars. And do you only count squares, like where one is on the horizon while the other is on the mid-heaven? In other words, you exclude a square where one is in the 11th house and the other is in the 8th house? And I assume that since this is all visual, that you'd exclude squares where one is on the IC and another is on the horizon, yes?

I just read the interview with Bernadette Brady and took an instant liking to her. This is a great coindidence to see her method in an example the next day. I might have to take a trip to the Amazon soon to look for here there.

One small point, why is it called the paran method? What's the origin of that?

Thanks again to everyone.
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1393

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like a moment to agree with Tom... you never learn anything by being right, only by mistakes.

markF my reasoning was very simple... mars is in detriment in the 7th house, he rules the 7th, so this doesn´t speak of a happy marriage. Moon is also square sun in via combusta, so I guess an unhappy one.

The year I was seeing by firdaria, which is not an easy technique, but I gave a try.
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Finland

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
markF my reasoning was very simple... mars is in detriment in the 7th house, he rules the 7th, so this doesn´t speak of a happy marriage. Moon is also square sun in via combusta, so I guess an unhappy one.


I thougt the same, except that I see Mars in the 8th whole sign house, which makes things worse with the marriage... but I'm wondering about the role of Venus, who trines Mars tightly and so receives him and gives him her "disposition, nature and virtue" as Bonatti writes. But Venus has not much virtue, being in her fall and in the 12th whole sign house - but she is in turn received by Mercury who is sextiling her, so that improves her situation. I cannot say exactly what this means Confused , I would just say that the situation of Mars is not simple. I think I would still say that there's probably been problems with marriage.

MC is exactly on the midpoint of Sun and Mercury, which would point to a man with an influental public role involving communications / writing. MC is also on Sirius, and Robson says here: "High office under Government giving great profit and reputation". So I would say this is a famous and influental man with a public position, which involves speaking or writing.

The ruler of MC, the Moon, is close to the Ascendant, which emphasizes the strong role of his public activities in his life (this man is what he does), and she's squaring the Sun and Mercury (moiety orbs), so she receives them in her domicile. The Sun rules the 11th house of Good Spirit, hopes and wishes and friendship, and Mercury rules the 9th house of spirituality and foreign travel, maybe his activities point to that kind of areas... charity, foreign countries... missionary...? Also Saturn in the 9th house is trining the Moon the MC/10th house ruler and receiving her in his exaltation. So here's another connection of religion, philosophy and / or foreign countries and profession / life mission.

But I'm wondering the role of the Asc ruler Venus in her fall in the 12th whole sign house of self-undoing... Confused The picture is not wholly as glorious as it would seem from the 10th house alone.
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yuzuru



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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Papretis

Quote:
But I'm wondering the role of the Asc ruler Venus in her fall in the 12th whole sign house of self-undoing...


Yes, and if we think that moon is in first house, and moon is exaltation of the 8th house, we got a picture of a person directed to self undoing and that this has maybe give him an early death.

I don´t think that mercury could really help venus to help mars... too far away. We can see that sun is exaltation ruler of 7th is squaring moon, which doesn´t body well to a good marriage.
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay Tom, I’ll play, here is my 2 cents…

With Sun at the Top of the chart in Cancer, I’d say this persons best success comes from giving service to others. A public figure?
The sun seems fairly close to Wasat – fixed star, from ann wright
General influence of the star: Connected with chemicals, poisons and gas. Violence, malevolence, destructiveness as a first principal. (Robson). Because of the Saturnine quality of this star, it gives a heaviness and tendency to pessimism. Apart from that however, Al Wasat does show up a quality of being able to speak with clear authority when others are waffling and prominence in public affairs or management is often the result. (Dr. Eric Morse) end quote….
With Jupiter in the 10th as well, I suspect this person has gained a lot from their career. The Libra rising makes me think that public image is somewhat important, and that the person cares (moon) a great deal about justice, balance, fairness.

With Mars in Taurus I suspect this person is passionately stubborn. In the Seventh house, ruled by Mars, well really passionate. (likes to play I think)

With Uranus on the 9th house cusp, I suspect travel has been somewhat spontaneous, and education unusual. Views on Law and religion possibly a bit different than the usual.
Also aligned to – Prima Hyadum With Uranus: Scientific, literary, artistic and mystical interests, unconsciously psychic, greatly influenced by environment, favorable for marriage after 35 and for gain and children, ill-health, seldom long life. (Robson).

Father,or family history, was possibly in the field of law or higher education, Gemini on the 9th house cusp And Mercury trying to straddle both 9th and 10th houses leads me to believe that this is a rather good orator. Someone who leads by voice. some authority-saturn in air- intellect in 9th house, higher ed, travel law divination, okay maybe daddy was a preacher but I dont think so...Saturn looks to possibly be connected to Capella- (the goat, hey ruler of Capricorn connected to goats, nimble person?) With Saturn: Shrewd, tidy fond of luxury, many detrimental habits, makes much money but does not keep it, trouble from opposite sex and domestic disharmony, bad health at end of life and afflicted in arms, legs or eyes necessitating restricted movement. (Robson). End quote…

Moon appears to be aligned with Seginus - Moon: Preferment by indirect means followed by disgrace and ruin. (Robson). End Quote in First house. Round face? More death omens..

And the Alpha Alchita of Corvus appears to be his rising – crow? Scavenger and message deliverer.

Mercury looks to be aligned with Alhena – (from ann wrights page) With Mercury: Popularity, benefits from opposite sex, musical arid artistic ability but little fame, domestic harmony, business adversely affected by pleasure and society. (Robson). End quote….

Part of Fortune on the 4th cusp, person would do well to consider ancestors, home, building, land, etc in their efforts.

Venus in Virgo, makes me think this person was very serious about their physical well being, but also had some physical ailment? (the only two people who I know have Venus in Virgo, as they are related to me, are both health nuts, very physical, both play tennis, but both have some Physical ailment, so off the wall perhaps notation, but that is from a personal note) Venus in the 11, I think this person gets along well with women as friends, and is promoted quite a bit by women. The chart strikes me as a person who is both private and public at once? Possibly a public figure who doesn’t display their private life all over the front pages?

Also someone who was probably more well known either for his/her death or after his her death, the NN to the left of the MC, seems to indicate after death prominence, even as the sun on MC is saying a life of prominence? Did the person have an unusual death? 8th house ruler is Venus, who is in 11th in Virgo, Venus is in her fall in Virgo, possibly venereal or blood related disease? Something that attacks the vitality of the individual?

Almost all the planets in this chart are in the upper half, leading me to think this is a pretty public person, with moon bellow suggesting keeps emotions to self. possibly strongly involved in civil rights? Between cancer sun, libra risning and the saturn in gemini, makes me thing public defense which makes me think civil rights with the era this chart is from.

Neptune in 12, self undoing through self deception? Possibly?
Pluto aligned with the Asselli - General influence of Aselli: According to Ptolemy both the Aselli are of the nature of Mars and the Sun, but Alvidas states that the North Asellus (Asellus Borealis) is like the Sun and Mars in sextile, and the South Asellus (Asellus Astralis) like the Sun and Mars in semisquare. Together they give care and responsibility, with a charitable and fostering nature, but danger of violent death, serious accidents and burns. (Robson).
General influence of North Asellus: It gives patience, beneficence and courage, and makes its natives heroic and defiant leaders. (Robson).
The two Asellus correspond to the Sun and Mars, both these fixed stars are therefore to count as a positive influence, if in conjunction with the Ascendant, MC or stellar bodies of the same character, but especially if grouped with the Sun or Mars. These people will have an aggressive nature and will not take insults easily. They may, by their own lack of caution, or by being dare-devils, put their life in danger and they will not hesitate to use brutal and violent means. When the Asellus are with the Ascendant danger by large animals (horses, bulls) may exist. (Ebertin).
The patient donkey is a lovable creature, but it can be very self-willed and unco-operative indeed, at times of its own choosing. The Aselli (this star and the other donkey Asellus Australis) display all the moodiness of Cancer at its most negative, while in Leo. A conjunction with the Moon, Mercury, Venus or Neptune, well aspected, will often reveal the poet, painter, musician unusually gifted, composer, psychic 'medium' or astrologer. In all cases too, there is a patience for which the donkey is respected, a quality necessary for all really reliable psychism. Perhaps when the donkey is being stubborn, he is seeing something in the path which his impatient master cannot, or will not see. (Dr. Eric Morse). End quote….

My overall impression is someone who is athletic, in the public eye, possibly civil rights activist, dies/died tragically, I think already has died because of the Venus, and all the other indicators, probably in the late 80’s or in the 90’s, but I’m fairly certain deceased. Dziben culminating just doesn’t look good. Possibly person is also related to money struggles? Failed business dealings? probably either married late or not at all, and also possibly had few children if any, I'd suspect one or two at most.

Well my two bits, am I close at all?
Granny
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a first for me – I’ve always had some sort of biographical information when working with charts. Take that away and things get pretty frightening. But I’m feeling brav(ish).

From the beginning Saturn got my attention:

1. Almuten of ASC with rulership by exaltation, triplicity and face.
2. Has the most essential dignity of the planets
3. Is placed in the strong 9th house, trine the 1st house Moon – which it receives by exaltation, triplicity and face.
4. Is in Hayz
5. Is oriental of the Sun – recently left the Sun’s beams, so is in a powerful part of the cycle
6. Is the next planet aspected by the Moon (after the Moon’s separation from square the Sun).
7. Is Lord of the Part of Fortune
8. The guy was even born on a Saturday!

This dignified, diurnal, oriental Saturn looks constructive and productive – not a cause of misfortune. Regarding the Ascendant, Venus by comparison seems like a minor player.

That was the easy part, now I suppose I should be brave and do something with it.

For starters, the angular 1st house Moon (ruler of 10th) in waxing square to the 10th house Sun is powerful and active. This is a person who needs to be out shining in the world and whom the world acknowledges with some sort of fame, honors, recognition or notoriety (Moon, MC ruler, in 1st). To me this angular Sun/Moon waxing square in the two strongest houses of a chart is the dynamic basis of this chart – anything tied to it is very important.

The Moon has recently separated from the Sun and next applies to that strong and important Saturn. The Sun/Moon tension wants to produce, and the tension moves into the 9th house by way of Saturn.

The 9th house: Higher education, religion, philosophy, publishing, travel. With Gemini – and Mercury as the 9th ruler and dispositor of Saturn - along with the Libra ASC and Moon, I go more toward thought, writing and social concerns (Air signs). Science is another possibility. Archeology is one of Saturn’s interests – interesting when you consider that the Saturn-ruled Part of Fortune is conjunct the Saturn-ruled IC: buried things. Cancer on the MC is interested in history. Mercury – ruler of the 9th and Saturn – is in Cancer and conjunct the MC: The 9th house of education, philosophy and religion is brought into action in the 10th.

Do we have here a published historian, archeologist, or religious figure with broad public appeal through the media? If he hasn’t actually published, the media could possibly serve as a substitute for publishing. I can see him as someone who gets around the world and writes and/or speaks about the cultures of the world.

But I will cheat: I also see the possibility of someone who popularizes science.
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TonyLouis



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Following up on Astrojin's post, I looked at the primary directions involving Venus (ASC and 8th ruler) and the Sun (Hyleg) and the MC (a major angle). Here is what Solar Fire produced as primaries (1 deg RA = 1 year):

Venus Pm conj Sun May 89 (Venus rules 8th and ASC; Sun = Hyleg)

Venus cPm ASC Sep 91 (ruler of 8th conjoins ASC)

Moon Pm conj Venus Sep 92 (Moon in 1st and alchocoden; Venus ruler of 8th; directions involving Moon often reflect health issues)

Venus Pm conj MC Nov 93 (8th ruler culminates at MC)

These dates are quite consistent with Astrojin's findings regarding the Hyleg and suggest significant, possibly life-threatening health issues during this period.
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granny_skot



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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would love to learn more from Brady. One of these days. I get the theory but I have't quite gotten the practice. I tried to do my parans, and then she sent me a list of my parans and while I got several of them right, I completely missed others. and got a few completely wrong. so I know i'm not quite understanding something.

But I love reading her stuff, she is so right on so often!
Granny
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

To MarkF:-

Quote:
I understand what you said about the paran star method. Are you directing the stars to the planets, or the planets to the stars. And do you only count squares, like where one is on the horizon while the other is on the mid-heaven? In other words, you exclude a square where one is in the 11th house and the other is in the 8th house? And I assume that since this is all visual, that you'd exclude squares where one is on the IC and another is on the horizon, yes?


The term directing may not be right in this context. What we do is we turn the natal chart according to the diurnal motion (whole day) and see whether there are planets that make paran relationship with the fixed of stars (of your choice of course!).

When we are born, there might not be any stars that are on the Asc or Mc or Dsc or IC. Similarly, there might not be any planets on the Asc or Mc or Dsc or IC. But during the course of the day (as you turn the chart according to its diurnal motion), when a planet rises and at the same time a star rises OR culminates OR sets OR anticulminates – we say that they are in paran. Similarly, when a planet culminates and at the same time a star rises OR culminates OR sets OR anticulminates – we say that they are in paran. Yet again, when a planet sets and at the same time a star rises OR culminates OR sets OR anticulminates – we say that they are in paran. Yet again, when a planet anticulminates and at the same time a star rises OR culminates OR sets OR anticulminates – we say that they are in paran. It is preferable not to use the term squares. And yes, looking at the above explanation of parans, we exclude any other “squares”…
The IC is different. Though you cannot see the star anticulminate, anticulmination point is easily recognized by taking the exact opposite of the culmination point.

Since we are looking at whole day of birth, time of birth is not required in the calculations of parans. The parans are sensitive to latitude, so the paran stars are the same for certain band of latitude depending on the orb you choose. This of course changes slightly every year due to the precession of the equinox. To make sure that our readings are personal:-

1) We must use tight orb, 0 deg and 30 min of radian which translates to about 2 min of time. This means if we have a planet rising at certain time, the star must be on the Asc or Mc or Dsc or IC within 2 minutes of time (not more).

2) Remember that the planetary configuration changes though the paran stars do not (baring precession of the equinox) e.g. if in your latitude a star rises with MC in 10 deg Gemini, it will rise with MC in 10 deg Gemini every year (which changes slowly – about a degree every 72 years). This year you might have one planet on 10 Gemini (which then makes them in paran) but in another year it might be another planet that is on MC.

3)The stars do not have meanings on their own (at least not so when predicting using natal chart). We have to look into the planet that is in paran with the star and blend the meanings of the planet and the star together. If the natal planet is cadent and not really effective, you might not see the manifestation of the paran. Yes, in the end we have to tie the meanings of the stars back to the natal chart (the concept you have been screaming through your posts!).

4) The meanings of the stars are more prevalent if the planet involve in paran with the stars is ruler of the Asc or MC.

5) The timing is taken from the paran star itself. If the paran star is rising, the effects of the star are from early life till the end. If the paran star is culminating, the effects of the star are from mid life till the end. If the paran star is setting, the effects of the star are from late life till the end. If the paran star is rising, the effects of the star are from near end of life till after (referred to Ulugh Begh method).

6) If a star happens to be exactly on one of your angles at birth (in this case time of birth is required), the meanings of the star become part of you your whole life. Orb for this one is 4 minutes of time (1 deg radian).

An example:-

In J.F. Kennedy's chart Mars is in paran with Algol (yes that Ras Al-Ghul "Head of the demon", which represents decapitation among others), Mars culminates as Algol culminates during the day he was born. Now, everyone born on the same day would have this signature. However, in his chart Mars is almost conjunct his eighth house cusp (death) and on this account alone would make Mars determined to the eighth (as Morinus would have put it), Mars is also exalted ruler of 4th H (endings), Mars is detriment, all of which make Mars as the important planet surrounding his demise. His death is martial due to fire, gunshot, ...(don't have to elaborate on that!), and Mars is also ruler of 7th (wife or open enemies or associates), Mars conj Mercury (during travel?)... With Mars in paran to Algol makes it even more empasized (decapitation or something to do with head!). The star Algol culminates which means this would happen during his prime time...

Quote:
I just read the interview with Bernadette Brady and took an instant liking to her. This is a great coindidence to see her method in an example the next day. I might have to take a trip to the Amazon soon to look for here there.


She is a fantastic teacher!

Quote:
One small point, why is it called the paran method? What's the origin of that?


If I am not mistaken, paran simply means destination.
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I compared Tony's observations regarding primary directions to those I get using Rumen Kolev's program. It seems that Solar Fire is using Mundo primaries (as opposed to primary directions calculated along the zodiac) using the Key of Ptolemy: 1 degree of right ascension = one year of life.

Kolev considers mundo primaries to be far stronger, i.e. more accurate and producing stronger effects than directions made in zodiac.

There can also be a significant time discrepancy. In Adolph Hitler's chart as rectified by Kolev, Venus and Mars in Taurus are tightly conjunct (about a 20 minute orb) near the 8th cusp. When they are directed in zodiac the reach the DSC about the same time, but when they are directed in mundo Venus hits the DSC about seven years after Mars. The mundo Mars direction coincided with the publication of Mein Kampf and the Venus direction coincided with his entry into German politics.

Using the Naibod Key brings the dates closer to the events by a few weeks or months.

Tom

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sasha_i



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 288
Location: Bucuresti

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

I made some analysis about his appearance:

It appears in general a harmonious body
Medium height. Straight hair, brown hair (but it is possible to have some light brown tendencies). Probably a melancholic expression, thick lips and nose, pale face. a rare or thin beard. Probably blemish in, or near the eye. Eyes smalls and light brown, looking downward and a little louring. Serious stomach or intestines problems.
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