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Mystery Chart No. 1
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sasha_i



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
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Location: Bucuresti

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that it would be interesting to analyse if the chart is of a female or male person. so I suggest to give only the date and location.
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kerenhappuch



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good thinking Tom Smile I like this game! So long as you tell us at the end how right/wrong we were!

South Node on the 5th cusp makes me think this person didn't have any children of his own - either he was infertile or just never did have children.

I'm going for writing as the main occupation - Moon in 1st is supposed to give writers, and Mercury on Alhena on MC gives the theme of a man carrying out his mission with words. But what kind of writing? Something Cancerian - self-help books? Cookery books? Or travel books (Mercury ruling 9th)? Was he published around age 24? (Solar Arc directed Mercury conjuncts natal Jupiter).

That Jupiter/Mars square catches my eye. I'd say he had a very reckless streak, a pigheaded and thoughtless obstinate streak that got him into trouble. Especially when a transiting planet set off this square - e.g. November 1961-February 1962, when Jupiter entered Aquarius, followed by Saturn in Jan and Mars in Feb. He'd be 18 - perhaps he did something reckless in this time?

In Dec 1969 - Jan 1970 Saturn was stationed at 2 Taurus. In January Jupiter was just entering Scorpio, setting up a nasty-looking opposition/square to his Mars/Jupiter. He'd be 27 - this looks to be a very testing time for him - especially as Saturn was stationed very close to his Mars. Perhaps this explains why he never married or had children!

Got to stop there as have other things to do! But will keep popping back to check on this thread!

Keren
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think that it would be interesting to analyse if the chart is of a female or male person. so I suggest to give only the date and location.


I've never heard of a method by which gender can be determined from a chart.

I'm wondering if it might be a good time to give hints - not so much hints to identify the native, but to keep members on track. But if you would rather if I kept quiet until the end, I'll do that too. For example. I can reveal the children thing. It won't be a give away since lots of people have none, one, few and many children. Appearance I'd have to keep to myself.

There are so many good observations here, I won't be able to comment on all of them, and doing it a little at a time might keep interest going.

Let me know.

Tom


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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aww don't give away any hints. Let's keep us in suspense a while longer.
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its only two days til friday and after I wrote my piece I did some research, I do think I know who it is, but am willing to wait until Friday for the answer. Shoudl we maybe email or PM you our guess? If its who I think it is, I think I did okay.

Granny
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No need for e-mail or PM. This is more about astrology than identification. In fact it shouldn't matter if we know who it is or not. What matters is how our delineations worked out.

Tom
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmmmm, wouldn't you need to know who it is eventually to discover whether or not your delineations worked out? I mean that kinda sounds like: "Congradulations! The operation was a success! but unfortuanately the patient died before we were done."

Wink

Granny
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't say I wouldn't reveal the name, only that the delineation is more important than guessing the name.

Tom
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
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Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I admit I was very stuck with this chart for some days, mostly because even though this was my idea to do a blind chart, Iím afraid of really messing it up.

Normally, Iíve learned to start with the temperament, how that all acts out and with the ASC because thatís where the main signs of the personality will be.

But this chart has such a strong 10th house presence to it that I found that I keep coming back to the 10th house. Whatever else can be said about this person this much is certain, this is a very public person.

Iíll deal in brief with the personís temperament. Itís strongly sanguine, there is almost nothing cold or dry about this person. Though the sanguine temperament is said to be the best, the whole idea of a temperament implies a mixture, but this person is an extreme, with very little balance. As a sanguine person, they are ďCheerful, liberal, faithful, affable, peace-makers, open-hearted, modest, religious.Ē CA, pg 539.

A recent idea that Iíve had to is to first look at the temperament and then to look at the most obvious planets, and to the planet that rules the temperament.

Lets start with that last part first. Jupiter rules the sanguine temperament, and itís peregrine, in the 10th house and is in a partile square to Mars. With Jupiter in hot and dry Leo square hot and dry Mars, that would seem to make the native high strung, maybe headstrong, but with a lot of energy. There is a ton of energy in this chart as a whole, with five of seven planets, including both lights in the angles. Something tells me if anything, just like the temperament mix that this is too much of a good thing. Thatís the background.

Hands down the most obvious part of this chart is the partile square between the Sun and the Moon. As a sign of health, itís great that both lights are in angles. But a square like this canít be good. I have to say that this has been my main sticking point with this chart. I know this is probably the most critical part as far as the personality is concerned and Iím bothered that I canít nail it down like I want to.

The Moon rules the 10th house where the Sun is, and while the Moon receives the Sun by sign, the Moon is also in the sign of the Sunís fall. In other words, they clash, and that is made worse by the square. The Moon is also in the Via Combusta, which is said to be bad for her. But what does it mean? This is straight from my own head not from some source but I get the feeling of a big ego here, a conflict between the imperious Sun and the normally shy and retiring Moon.

How does this play out against the background of the super-sanguine temperament. If this square represents a big expansive ego it would express itself in a person whoís very sociability and natural grace means that he can get away with things that would sink someone with less charm and affability. I can see someone who can get themselves into lots of trouble but then talk their way out of it.

Saturn trines the Moon and is the almuten ruler of the ASC. Lilly doesnít allow for the lights to be the significator of manners, so that by his system would have to fall to Saturn. While I think that Saturn does affect the ASC, I still think that the overwhelmingly sanguine nature of the person, combined with this Sun-Moon square is the real story with the personality. The Saturn connection here would add some gravitas to this fast moving, quick natured person.

Venus is the ruler of the ASC, and sheís up there in the ever-hopeful 11th house, but in a partile trine with Mars. (This chart has two partile squares and one partile trine, thatís a first for me.) Since Mars rules the 2nd and 7th houses, Iíd wager that this person has had a lot of serious fights with enemies, been through some lawsuits and maybe a bad marriage or two. Mars is in a fixed sign, so this means consistent fights, persistent lawsuits, etc. Mars is either at the tail end of the 7th house or just barely close enough to be in the 8th house. That would depend on rectifying the chart I suppose. Iíd tend to see it more in the 8th house which would mean that itís loss through fights, enemies, lawsuits or divorce.

The personís appearance would be good looking, as befits the Venus ruled Libra ASC. They may also be a nice dresser, well turned out and neat.

Now Iíll turn to the 10th house, which screams for attention. Edited on Thursday, Nov. 30. I left out that here that I am comparing Mercury with the Moon to see the quality of the person's mind. That 10th house label before is a little misleading. Anything I add is in bold, nothing will be taken out What you want to see in a native is how strong each are, but also how well the two work together. Mercury is the stronger of the two, in a commanding sign of long ascension while the Moon is in an obeying sign. Mercury is closer to the cusp than the Moon is too. Mercury is received by the Moon by sign, which shows that the person has a first rate, creative mind, combining both the analytical and imaginative sides of intelligence.

Mercury is also very fast which shows a person who is inconsistent and changes his mind a lot. But the person also studies things fast and thinks fast but with solid reasoning reason. Mercury is also oriental which shows the better side of Mercury, less prone to lies, and trickery. Mercury is widely sextile Mars and that gives some confidence and maybe even some arrogance to the person. That ties in with what I said above about ego. This person has a reason to be arrogant.

Finally, Mercury is square the ASC. This could be a person who receives criticism from on high, from the government, or since Mercury rules the 9th house from universities or the church.

Career
Significators Ė 10th house Sun in Cancer, Moon (by itís square and by it being lord of the 10th) Mercury from being on the 10th cusp, Jupiter for being in the 10th house and Sirius which is on the cusp of the 10th house.

With the Sun in the 10th, with Sirius on the 10th house cusp, with Mercury and Jupiter all in the 10th house, this is certainly a successful person. It doesnít matter that the Sun, Mercury and Jupiter are all peregrine. They are all angular and thatís quite a bit. Add the fixed star Sirius, the brightest star in the sky and that convinces me that this person is very successful.

Iíd give special place in this chart to Sirius. From the Fixed Stars web site, Sirius ďclose to the MC, promise is given of gaining extensive wealth, a lucky hand in commercial enterprise or matters of governmentĒ From Vivian Robson, Sirius shows, ďhigh office under Government giving great profit and reputation.Ē From Lilly, CA, page 621, ďFixed stars give great gifts, and elevate even from Poverty to an extreme height of Fortune; the seven Planets do not soĒ and ďThe two Dog Stars, Sirius and Procyon, arising with the Sun, or culminating with him, give Kingly Preferment.Ē

This person is famous or receives the esteem of those around him, but itís a controversial kind of fame due to the square. If the Moon represents the common people, perhaps heís well known but not loved by the people. But thatís just a guess really. I still donít understand the square of the Sun to the Moon.

Whether the person has worldwide fame and success or just the high regard of his colleagues and is successful in his own world is hard to tell. With Sirius on the 10th, Iíd lean more to real fame, not just the admiration of those around him.

Since the lord of the 10th house, the Moon, is in the first house, this shows that fame and renown will come to this person.

The Moon in the ASC shows that the person rises through their efforts, not through inheritance and this is confirmed too by the applying trine to Saturn, as Saturn shows hard work.

Jupiter in the 10th house, in a diurnal geniture, shows a person who is employed in public affairs, but because heís square to Mars, he could also lose it all due to wrangling and fights, and perhaps to that ego that I mentioned above. Mars rules the 7th house, so the conflicts may take the form of lawsuits or divorce even. Mars also rules the 2nd house, and wherever Mars is connected to the 2nd house shows a loss of money.

Will It Last?
Mercury represents the career as Iíll show below, and is applying to the Sun and will be combust soon. This shows a speedy rise, the fame continues, but itís hard to maintain his fame. Perhaps from the square of Mars to Jupiter, a bad lawsuit or divorce.

What Kind of Career
Though both Mercury and Jupiter are in the 10th house, Iíd say that Mercury signifies the personís career more. One because itís one of the three natural signifiers of careers, along with Venus and Mars, but also because itís closer to the 10th house cusp. Even though Mercury is peregrine, the fact that itís the planet that rises in the morning just ahead of the Sun gives it a special place and will show the career.

Since Mercury is applying to the Sun, this shows his career is associated with the government or gives him a powerful position.

What kind of career is this? Obviously this is some sort of job associated with intelligence, language, math or science, or business. And the theme of the government keeps coming up over and over. I keep thinking of a government lawyer, a spokesmen for the government, or a scientist whose work requires government patents or subsidies. Iíd lean to science since Mercury is in a movable sign, Cancer. Mercury in a movable signs show the person is capable of handling the hardest subject, math, science and medicine. Since Mercury is not in a humane sign, Iíd discount things like him being an author or man of letters. That separating square with Mars could show chemistry or even surgery as a possibility.

Cancer is also a fertile sign, so I see lots of ideas, lots of creativity.

I wonder is water is connected to the personís career in some way as Cancer is a water sign?

Iíd like to go on but I think this is enough for now.
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Last edited by MarkF on Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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yuzuru



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Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A person oriented to connecting with people, knowing them, to speak his mind and to move around, gather a lot of friends, mainly women, maybe from lower class than his. In general friends will give him great joy, although some big problems with women-friends. He will try to fulfill his objectives by a too controling nature, focusing in the details, pragmatics and objectives, which will ultimately give a lot of frustration to his basic motivation. Another contradiction is that he tries to be social and at the same time donīt want to give to reveal himself. He adapts very well to any environment he is.

In the mental health department I think he may have had problems with agression and compulsion ? I donīt think he expressed his sexuality very well.

I am not sure yet, but he may be connected to religion, science, etc, but if he does is mainly a very institutional one, not a creative one. I think he was very dogmatic. With pars fidei and pars spiritum in 9th house, it seens to me that he should have been connected with religion/values or at least phylosophy.
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
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Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuzuru,

Could you explain your thinking behind some of these ideas? Iím curious to know your reasoning. Again, itís not to criticize; Iím just looking for more information.

Quote:
He will try to fulfill his objectives by a too controlling nature, focusing in the details, pragmatics and objectives, which will ultimately give a lot of frustration to his basic motivation. Another contradiction is that he tries to be social and at the same time donít want to give to reveal himself. He adapts very well to any environment he is.

In the mental health department I think he may have had problems with aggression and compulsion ? I donít think he expressed his sexuality very well.

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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello again,

I like to try on the profession:-

Lilly, Schoener, and many ancient astrologers said that the profession of a native is governed by either Mercury, Mars or Venus but nobody puts is quite clearly as Paulus of Alexandrinus did in his book (trans. Dorian Greenbaum). Basically, the profession is governed by three swift moving planets i.e. Mercury, Venus and Mars.

If your professional signifier is Mecury, then you fall into the intellectual or merchant caste, if it is Venus, you would fall into the Artisan caste, if it is Mars then you fall into the warior caste (understand the ancient mode of thinking here). In more modern terms, Mercury = scholar, mechant, commerce, business, peopel who use the mind/intellect, etc., Venus = poets, singers, performers of any kind, people who play with emotions, etc., Mars = military people, sportsmen (if they do it for the performance then it's Venus not Mars!), people who use skills, etc.
Mercury as ruler of Gemini is more intellectual, as ruler of Virgo is more analyical/commerce..., Mars as ruler of Aries is of warrior type, Mars as ruler of Scopio is more of the skilled type, Venus as ruler of Taurus is more material-creative type and Venus as ruler of Libra is more people-creative type.

Sun and Moon are luminaries, they are life givers (spirit, body form, matter, ...). Jupiter (as ruler of Sag) is of the noble caste and Jupiter as ruler of Pisces is of the spiritual caste (hence no pofession). Saturn in not good condition is probably the outcast or slave (hence no profession). We would have to modify this to more modern expression.

Now, which is the strongest of the three (Mercury, Venus, Mars) that governs the profession of this mystery chart? There are many methods i.e. Bonatti, Hephaistion, Paulus, etc. but basically we look at the strongest among the following:-

1) Placement of sun and its ruler: Sun is in Cancer, ruler moon
2) Placement of MC and ruler: MC in Cancer, ruler moon
3) Any of the three (Mercury, Mars, Venus) that are spear bearers to the sun (rising before the sun) and some authors require that the planet be not combust : Mecury (almost combust - eeeh who cares).
4) Check the planet that moon separates and applies to.
5) Any of the three that are angular (in the following order - 10th, 1st, 4th, 7th some astrologers drop 7th), you may also want to look at the houses trine to MC i.e. the second (house of finance) and the sixth (labor).

Well, the most voted is Mecury. Hence, the intellectual/merchant caste. One who uses the mind to do things in life and his profession.

Then we delineate Mercury to get a better description of the profession.

Mercury conj MC AND sun AND all Mercury, Sun, MC in the house of Moon (Cancer) - surely makes him famous. Reception from he moon by square makes the public likes him too!

Mercury is oriental and in the hemisphere of the sun, hence in sect - he is in the field where he is most accepted and he will do things (his profession at least) accepted by the public. Mercury not detriment nor fall, he is not into alternative profession.

Mecury is in the term of Venus (Egyptian) and Venus is in Virgo (fall) - hence he will have many friends that are into alternative things OR women (or any expression of fall Venus) shall give him trouble in his profession. Since Mercury and MC are in Cancer - the three trip lords are Venus, Mars and Moon. Venus and Mars are not in good essential dignities (one in fall and one in detriment) would make him only relatively successful late in life (profession). With Mercury applying to sun, this mercurial profession would be mercurial indeed (very fast and quick in its expression and duration). Mercury conj Sun conj MC would give also atheletic expression, remember the winged feet of Hermes (Mercury) cheating Appolo (sun)!.

Oh no I have to go!


Last edited by astrojin on Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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AlexMc



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Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What an upfront and interesting chart Tom selected for us. Five of the traditional seven planets are angular including both luminaries. Three of these five are in the 10th - Mercury, Sun and Jupiter and Jupiter is making a phasis. Very promising for fame and fortune. The only two non-angular planets are LoA (Venus) and the asc almuten (Saturn) - square by sign with Venus applying to Saturn (still out of orb) and both disposited by Mercury (the professional significator and also talent sig).

By secondary progression, a serious prolonged crisis and reversal of fortune begins when progressed Venus stations retrograde in partile square to natal Saturn from approximately age 32 to 41 years Ė possibly health related because in addition to ruling the ascendant Venus also rules 8th and is exalt ruler of 6th (in fall). Venus and Saturn are part of his life motivation and happiness significators. Some extreme reversal (RX) and denial (Saturn square) of happiness occurred. Saturn also rules the 4th and 5th so this could involve a parent or a child but I am leaning towards it being him because of the two asc rulers and his 6th.

Prog Venus perfects its first square to natal Saturn at 20Virgo11 at approximately age 32, then stations RX (20Virgo33) at age 37. The crisis that had been building up worsened at this SRX juncture. (All ages are approximate because Iím just looking at the ephemeris without benefit of software. If, when all is revealed on Friday, this has any merit I will revisit it and get more specific with the math, progressed angles, lunar triggers, transits and so onÖ)

Next, prog Venus, now in retrograde motion, re-applies to the square to natal Saturn (never having really left it) and perfects the square again at 20Virgo11 at age 39 or 40.

Backing up to age 37 when prog Venus Stationed, a year later at age 38 prog Mercury (professional sig but also L12, troubles) came within 1 degree applying orb of prog Venus simultaneously squaring natal Saturn (perfecting at age 39, approximately Ė a little bit before the rx Prog Venus perfects at 39 or 40 yrs). This put further stress on his professional and personal troubles and would be the worst of the crisis. It was quite a pile up.

Almost immediately after the prog Mercury and Venus aspects perfect their squares to natal Saturn there is relief as prog Jupiter sextiles the ascendant.

Regards his career in general - it focuses on that Mercury with Sun and Moon close seconds. The speed of his Mercury is extremely fast Ė heís quick. Mecury is his talent as well as his profession (lucky gets to work at what he likes and is good at). The keyword for Mercury's nature is "contest". Could be mental contests (including writing), political contests, sports or gaming contests -- or any fast exchanges, even retail. Moon as L10 in asc relates to public honoring him, nuturing, social causes or food industry (need temperament here to help distinguish which). He did have alot of friends helping him (L3 Sun and L11 jupiter in 10th conjunct with Jupiter making a phasis). I think he gave people hope (sun jupiter conj in 10). Even the sig's for 'enemies' (L12 and L7) are in friendly aspects with reception to and from LoA - like face to face friendly contestants. What kind? I'm off to calculate temperment - I may be back
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sigma4



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Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe this guy had married more than once as his moon aspects two planets, Sun and Saturn, and divorced as his Sun and Moon is in tight square and both Moon and dsc fall on a a moveable sign.

He is certainly a public figure and this has been quite addressed already.

Sigma
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iím going to sneak in some information here without saying if or how it relates to the native.

Temperament: Using the method advocated by John Frawley, a modification of Lillyís method, I get a remarkably balanced temperament with a slight edge towards sanguine. Using Dorian Greenbaumís method, which she devised after studying a variety of traditional methods, I get the same balance, but more strongly sanguine. Since this is rough work and the basis of the nativity, that fact that one shows more sanguine than the other is of little consequence. The native will be balanced in his approach to life and in his motivations.

The significator of the manners when there is no planet in and close to the ascendant is the planet or planets that most engage Mercury and the Moon. Venus is in a fairly wide sextile to Mercury and is in the domicile and exaltation of Mercury. She is also the ASC ruler. Saturn is powerful in this chart and he is in trine to the Moon, the exaltation ruler of the ASC, on the antiscion of Mercury, and in a Mercury sign. Although Venus is in her fall, a serious debility, she is also in her triplicity. In this sense she is a bit like Mars in Cancer. The weakness may outweigh the strength, but she is not completely weak and she is well placed in the 11th (Placidus). Saturn is also in triplicity and although cadent, he is in the best cadent house, the ninth. It would have bee better if there were a direct common link between Venus and Saturn such as mutual reception or aspect, but there isnít so we work with this.

Therefore, his balanced/sanguine temperament is going to be expressed through Venus and Saturn. Jupiter will play a role as Jupiter is the ruler of the sanguine temperament.

So we have a somewhat sanguine individual with a dominant Saturn, as Kirk says, he was even born on a Saturday. Doesnít the word ďsteadyĒ suggest itself?

Also I agree with those who see the Sun Ė Moon square as important. How does a balanced, steady individual express that angular aspect?

Unless there is a flurry of activity, Iíll post the name tonight in a seperate thread..

Tom
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