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Mystery Chart No. 2
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:04 pm    Post subject: Mystery Chart No. 2 Reply with quote

The native of this next chart is not as well known as No 1 and may not be known at all outside the US, but he brings some interesting things to the table.

Male
October 10, 1924
4:00 am EST
Poughkeepsie, NY
41 N 42' 01"
73 W 55' 55"

21 Virgo 58 Rises
20 Gemini 36 is the MC

I am assured that despite the the exactness of the hour, that this is an accurate birth time.

Tom
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granny_skot



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Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ack, well I know this one so unfair for me to participate, but I will say that one reason I know him is because of a discussion I had with some other astrologers of SEVERAL persons who have that profession, Having a Virgo Rising, details, details...

And shares a Birthday, though 2 year difference with one of my step fathers, who is a 10/10/22 person.
Granny.
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MarkF



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Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The temperament is pretty evenly balanced melancholic, choleric

Significator of manners will be the ASC ruler Mercur and Venus, as they are in mutual reception, and Jupiter is itís in a square with the Moon, but probably more importantly Saturn. Saturn rules the melancholic temperament, Saturn is in mutual reception with Mars, the antiscia of Saturn is conjoined with Mars, and itís also the exaltation ruler of Mercury and the Sun. The contrantiscia of Saturn is on the 12th house cusp. Saturn is all over this chart. Or I should say, Saturn mixed with Mars as they are in each other's signs and with each other's antiscia.

Saturn and Mars are also in an applying square, but it's an out of sign aspect.

As the ASC ruler, Mercury mixed with Venus gives a real interest in the arts, but the literate arts more than the decorative. Though probably a person of few words, they will be charming. Iím thinking of someone with an interest in poetry, acting, fiction or history. I see that as their career, some sort of Venus-Mercury career, leaning more to the Mercury side, but as qualified by Venus.

There are three main stories here, Venus in her fall (mixed with Mercury) and sextile Saturn, which is itself mixed with Mars by reception. The second one is Jupiter in his sign but square the Moon and sextile the Sun.

But hovering all of this is that out of sign square between Saturn and Mars.

Overall this is a very dark chart. With Saturn and Mars a presence behind the scenes so much and with a melancholic temperament, this is a pretty dark personality. Saturn and Mars rule the 5th, 6th and 8th houses, so perhaps the person wonít have any kids or wonít be a great parent but more probably their health both mental and physical will suffer by the mixture of Saturn and Mars over the 6th and 8th houses.
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Overall this is a very dark chart. With Saturn and Mars a presence behind the scenes so much and with a melancholic temperament, this is a pretty dark personality.


In a lot of ways, this is right on the money, but to keep us on track we're not dealing with a Jack the Ripper type here. It might be interesting to contrast the Venus in Virgo in this chart with the Venus in Virgo in Arthur Ashe's chart. They both have Mercury contacts and in one chart Venus is the lady of the ASC and in the other Mercury is the lord of the ASC, yet these are very different men.

No more hints.

Tom
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TonyLouis



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assuming the birth time is correct, the closest aspect in the chart is an almost exact semi-sextile of Neptune with the ASC. Hence, Neptune would strongly color his personality; or as Bonatti would say, his ďcorpus, vita et ingeniumĒ fall under the influence of Neptune. The modern planet Neptune is also closely sextile the MC and trine the Part of Fortune, so it also colors his profession and worldly achievements. Neptune is also involved in a grand trine with Jupiter and the Part of Fortune, all in outgoing fire signs. I would assume that this is a man of great poetic or visionary imagination, possibly a teacher or proselytizer of his worldview. Who he is and what he does are destined to be Neptunian in nature.

With Uranus angular (conjunct the DSC) and square the MC, his career could well involve novel or revolutionary ideas, modern science, astronomy, or even astrology. Uranus resides in Pisces, the sign associated with Neptune by modern astrologers, so he seeks insight into Piscean matters Ė again suggesting great imagination and the exploration of matters of universal significance.

Mercury rules both the ASC and MC and occupies the 1st house. This gives a strong intellectual and communicative bent to his character and his profession. The ASC-ruler in the 1st indicates a self-made man or at least someone who is strongly self-motivated. In Libra Mercury seeks balanced judgment and artistic refinement. Mercury is especially prominent because it conjoins his prenatal Full Moon (syzygy ante nativitatem). He appears fated to pursue Mercury-related matters Ė to communicate his ideas.

Jupiter in Sagittarius in the 3rd sextile his first-house sun again suggests a man of ideas and vision, a person with a need to communicate. Mars rules the 3rd cusp and resides in Aquarius, so he is likely to be a crusader for his novel ideas.

Regarding the primary mundane directions of his early life:

In December 1926 Moon conjoined Uranus in the 6th. This could have been a significant health crisis.

In June 1929 the ASC and Uranus were in opposition by primary mundane direction: another health crisis.

In December 1929 Jupiter and the DSC conjoined by primary mundane direction. I would expect this to have been a positive development or abundance to his family or involving his parents. Jupiter occupies Sagittarius which it rules. Perhaps he changed residence to a more favorable location. Maybe the family got to travel at that time. The parents might have received increased income or some honor. Maybe the mother had twins.
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MarkF



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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom,

I should have clarified what I meant. I mean that this chart is a lot darker compared to Arthur Ashe's chart. I didn't mean that this was a malign personality. I think that the gravity and seriousness is a presence behind a lot of the obviously Mercurial ASC. In other words, if this person is a writer, or an actor, a poet or playwright, however this Mercury/Venus is played out, it will not by in a light and bright way, but in a somber, serious and studius way.

Other than that I'm stuck as usual. Can we go back to doing horary?
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I should have clarified what I meant. I mean that this chart is a lot darker compared to Arthur Ashe's chart. I didn't mean that this was a malign personality


Why not? Those kind of people exist. I suppose the "Jack the Ripper" reference was a bit too strong. It was hyperbole. But there are dark characters out there and that darkness can manifest in dangerous, base, or even artistic activites. I would consider Edgar Alan Poe as having a dark side that might manifest in his chart. Drugs, alcohol, marcabe poetry, these are things I would consider "dark," and almost everything in this chart is below the horizon. The exceptions are Venus and Neptune both in the 12th (Placidus cusps). Oh yeah Pluto is in the 10th. The darkest planet is above the horizon and out of the 12th. You are awfuly close to the mark, Mark - don't sell yourself short. It is a very long shot that anyone could look at this shot and tell us what the native is known for, but we can work on other stuff that will make that more apparent.

I first encountered this chart a few years ago and what struck me was the Mercury - Venus mutual reception, but I had the advantage of knowing who the native was and what he was known for, although until that moment I'd never heard of him.

It was a complete coincidence that both this chart and Arthur Ashe's chart both have Venus in Virgo. That was not planned. I didn't notice it until after I posted the data. But this gives us the opportunity to look at a very similar placment (by essential dignity) and see how they worked out in the native's life. Ashe's Venus in Virgo ruled his ASC. Venus is in her fall, but she is also in triplicity. Ashe was an impeccably neat man (Virgo all the way), but perhaps the weakness in Venus manifested in physical difficulties that were genetic. In addition to being given a graceful athletic body, Ashe was dealth heart disease (Venus trine Mars?) and even endured brain surgery (Mercury?).

This guy has Mercury ruling the ASC, not too badly placed in Libra but in mutual reception with Venus in fall. Would this at some point affect his body? His career? Mercury rules his MC, too.

This is so ridiculously easy for me, and anyone contributing to the thread could do the same thing knowing what I know about the native, so push yourself.

Tom
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horarcek



Joined: 24 Jul 2005
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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="MarkF"] Can we go back to doing horary?[/quote]

Please no - we have to learn a lot on this "natal" field.
Leery
Asc - cold and dry
L1 - cold and dry
Sun - cold= and dry
Moon - hot and dry
LoG (Jup.) - hot+ and dry+

Temperament melancholic and choleric - he got a lot of sparkling ideas and he was able to analyse and explore them with purpose to find things useful.
Lack of fire - he was not an action-man at a first glance.
Abundance of air, all angles, Moon and Venus in common signs - ability to accept various kinds of influences and transform it on his way.
Wealth - Venus L2, accidental and essential weak but in reception with Mercury,L1; Sun in his fall on the cusp of 2nd in sextile with strong benefic Jupiter - this man earned enough by really hard work.
Marriage - Moon and Uranus on the cusp of 7th - more than one
Children - L5 in fertile sign, Moon and 7th house in fertile sign, 11th house (5th from 7th) and her lord in fertile signs - more than one child
Moon in Pisces in square with Jupiter, L4 - maybe he must followed father steps.
Health - malefics Mars and Saturn (antiscia) on the cusp of 6th - man experienced bad things in health area.

Well, it`s dinner time and I`ll try more later.

Trojan
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Cenned



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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:06 pm    Post subject: Mystery chart 2 Reply with quote

Only Venus of the classical seven was above the horizon in the night sky when this mystery person was born. It was the Morning Star, just about as distant as it ever gets from the Sun. In early times the Morning Star was known as Phosphorous or Lucifer, the light giver. Venus as the Morning Star tends to have a bad reputation in astrology. It brings bad luck. We see this in Lillyís Table of the Fortitudes and Debilities of the planets, there oriental Venus (Ďorientalí meaning rising before the Sun, as here) is considered an Accidental Debility with a negative score of 2. The early Christian church picked up on this idea. Lucifer, they taught, was a fallen angel, another name for Satan, the Devil.

Being born with only the Morning Star visible in the sky must have meaning here. Venus rules the Sunís sign and is in mutual reception with Mercury, the Ascendant ruler. Does this mutual reception nullify the bad omen?

The combination of Sun in Libra and Moon in Pisces, with the Virgo Ascendant, suggests a gentle person. Someone who is friendly, sociable, and impressionable. There is some reserve, some innate shyness perhaps. He/she can see the viewpoints of others, and is able to get into their shoesóthereís much non-judgmental empathy. However, with the close Moon-Uranus conjunction near the 7th cusp, he/she could become easily confused, identifying with too many different opinions and viewpoints, and be unable to stay on a persistent course of action for any length of time. This combination would be ideal for an actor or actress, someone who is able to slip easily into the personality and mannerisms of a role.

The angular Moon-Uranus conjunction says he/she will be looked upon as odd or eccentric. There is great originality. But, stimulated perhaps by others, he/she is liable to swing from one extreme to another, and get entangled in too much detail (the square from Jupiter to the conjunction confirms this difficulty with detail, a Jovian bugbear). Thereís a try-anything-once outlook (again, helped by the Jupiter square). He/she is clearly unconventional, and I suspect something of a sexual deviate, probably homosexual or lesbian, attracted to the young, fresh and untried. His/her enthusiasms will swing up and down, which also suggests some degree of manic-depressiveness.

The Mars-Saturn antiscion points to stress. It will also make the person very impulsive, with little self-control, someone who tends to act first and think about it later. He/she can be a hard worker but will always want quick results, and will be excessive in just about everything. Alone this pairing could point to criminality, but the rest of the chart (the Morning Star apart) doesnít appear to confirm this.

The Jupiter-Pluto conjunction by antiscion, with Jupiter near the IC, suggests the possibility of inherited money.

Mercury & Venus in mutual reception gives an artistic sense, much idealism, and an awareness of the social needs of others. He/she may work for the betterment of others.

Who is this? An actor or actress probably; perhaps a flaming queen, maybe a member of the Salvation Army or one of those priests the Catholic Church now wants to disown.

Cenned
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MarkF



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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom,

I keep thinking some sort of dark actor like Marlon Brando, someone in the arts, literary but dark. You said Edgar Allen Poe and that's what I had in mind, someone along those lines. Or Alfred Hitchcock, or Harold Pinter.

I still think that this person's career is in the "Venus = the arts" family. In his example of the merchant, Lilly gives away some more ideas about how to spot the career. Besides looking for which of the trio of Venus, Mercury and Mars is dignified and angular, Lilly also say to look to see which of them is connected to the Moon, and whatís connected to the 7th house, as thatís the house of business and trade. In Asheís chart, Mars is in the 7th. I think we were all fooled by Mercury in the 10th in Asheís chart. In the chart of Lillyís merchant, Mars is also in the 7th. So why is one an athlete yet the one is a merchant? It seems that sometimes the significator of the career acts according to its nature and other times the career is more shown by the planets itís in aspect with or disposits or is disposited by. Asheís Mars is in Taurus, ruled by Venus, so heís got the Mars athleticism tempered by Venus. Lillyís merchant has Mars in Leo in aspect with four other planets. Mars does not act like Mars in this instance. If anything heís like a placeholder, something that will point elsewhere for the real career, which Lilly says is shown by all those different planets as a merchant who trades in a lot of things.

In this current chart, Mercury rules the 1st and 10th and is in mutual reception with Venus who is the exaltation ruler of the 7th. Either way you slice it, this guyís work would show that combination. But Iíd see the personís career as more Venereal than Mercurial. Why? Call is a hunch, but I think I see a pattern. If Venus, Mars or Mercury is in their own sign (or maybe exaltation) they express themselves according to their own nature, an artist, a soldier or a thinker. But if they are peregrine, the career will be shown by the planet that disposits it, are in aspect with it, or both. Iíve only looked at a dozen or so chart using this idea but it seems to hold up. One exception that Iíve noticed a few times is like in Asheís chart, when we have Mars in its detriment, it does seem to act according to its nature, but qualified by itís dispositor Venus. I have a feeling that Iím not explaining this right but thatís OK.

I didn't notice what you said about all the planets being under the earth except Venus but there it is. I know that both Lilly and Al-Khayyat (spelling?) say to first look at the overall pattern, where the lights are, how strong they are but I missed that.
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
oriental Venus (Ďorientalí meaning rising before the Sun, as here) is considered an Accidental Debility with a negative score of 2. The early Christian church picked up on this idea. Lucifer, they taught, was a fallen angel, another name for Satan, the Devil.


Venus oriental, in the sign of her fall = fallen angel. I love it. Don't make too much of this with the chart, but it does have a certain connection.

Quote:
I still think that this person's career is in the "Venus = the arts" family.


Quote:
Asheís Mars is in Taurus, ruled by Venus, so heís got the Mars athleticism tempered by Venus.


So an aspect to Venus in Ashe's chart gives us information about the career. It qualifies or "tempers" it. What about the mystery chart? What tightly aspects Venus?

Tom
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MarkF



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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, Venus is sextile with Saturn, but since Saturn and Mars are in mutual reception and have each otherís antiscia, itís more accurate to say that Venus is sextile with Saturn/Mars. But Scorpio is the sign of the detriment of Venus, so itís not an easy aspect.

So the personís career is a Venus-Saturn-Mars mťlange sort of thing? In my very limited little world, Saturn-Mars means really nasty things like Naziís and Bill OíReilly but other than that Iím stuck. Iím just happy that I got myself to Venus.

Maybe he has something to do with war? An actor in horror movies?
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark, Mark, Mark, other than your Bill O'Reilly quote, you don't know how close you are. I seriously doubt it is possible to get closer with just the chart, so move on to other things about the man. Well Done.

Tom
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MarkF



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Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't I rest? I feel like I gave birth to a baby.
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Monk



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Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuk, Phact, Bellatrix, Capella conjunct M.C. plus El Nath both Paran and conjunct M.C. by projected, Pluto conjunct Sirius.......Alcyone Culminating in paran with Venus Rising....A love of theatre and dark rituals of religion,.....I think he is a writer of dark stuff, in religion, perhaps dark in a sexual way, but a scary writer!
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