A new mystery chart 1 by TonyLouis I hope it's okay to post yet another mystery chart. This is a person who is well known outside the United States, which is why I chose this chart. In addition, his birth time is not in the public domain. I happened to have the opportunity some years ago to ask him personally for his birth time. The time he gave may not be exact but it is from family records. Here is the data that he provided: Male born 29 November 1946 at 4 AM EST, at 22N53, 82W30. ASC = 27 Libra 35 MC = 28 Cancer 03 Moon = 7 Aquarius 45. Questions include what is his career, what is he known for, what are his political views, and what role did he play in his society. Tony Quote Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:50 am
2 by Tom This is my first installment. I'll try to answer the questions soon. The temperament is sanguine. The significators of the manners are Venus and Mercury, indicating the arts perhaps performing arts e.g a musician. However, what is a bit foreboding is that Venus is Rx and in detriment. Venus Rx is a nasty piece of work at times. Ted Bundy, who was born five days before this person, has the same Venus Rx and this Venus is at the same spot, 18 Scorpio, as Charles Manson?s Venus. This is not a good beginning, particularly since Venus is the lady of the ASC. Over on the Yahoo group Angelicus Merlin, Caroline Allen has been posting Firmicus? delineations, and I have to say, despite they?re being ancient cookbook astrology, they can be damned accurate, so let?s play: ?1. Venus on the ascendant by night will make men of divine intelligence, friends of emperors and powerful men, entrusted with the management of their affairs. They will be important and respectable orators according to the nature and quality of the signs. ? ?2. If Mercury is in aspect to Venus or in conjunction with her, the indication is for crowns or wreaths as prizes in contests; the natives will be musicians widely acclaimed. ?3. Venus in the fixed sign or those with small voice (Leo and Sagittarius) in a nocturnal chart will make devoted friends of emperors, who make and invent things that please royalty; they cater to royalty and luxury and receive great riches from these occupations. In earth or watery signs she makes the manufacturers of perfumes, weavers of magnificent textiles, or successful dyers. In four footed signs (and Scorpio is one) the natives are animal lovers in charge of the king?s herds; the are also well born, famous, and of good character.? He saves the bad stuff for people with Venus in a day chart ? she is a nocturnal planet. Taking Firmicus at his word, we can try to look at this in contemporary terms. I doubt we?re dealing with the keeper of the King?s herds, but we might be dealing with someone who works with ?royalty? either in high politics or in the professional world. With cardinal angles we?re dealing with someone who will take the initiative, but three of the four rulers of the angels are in fixed signs, so I?m thinking power behind the throne, possibly due to loyalty (fixed signs). The closest aspect is the Moon applying to Saturn. Both planets are directed to opposition about a year after the birth. Saturn receives the Moon and both planets are close to the MC IC axis opposite the signs they rule. They are each directed to an angle, Saturn to the MC and Moon to the IC when the native was between 12 and 14 years old. I suspect divorce, but since Saturn and the Moon are involved we could be dealing with death of the mother. The aspect itself implies a stiff, formal demeanor and personality perhaps leading to depression. Jupiter, exaltation ruler of the MC is directed to the ASC at about age 20 followed by Venus a few years later (both mundo and in zodiac). This suggests the native came to prominence about age 20 to 25 and again early in the 21st century as Mars is directed to the ASC and Mars rules the 7th. Tom Quote Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:14 am
3 by TonyLouis Tom, Much of what you say about this chart is on target. I'll wait a few days to post the identity of this man. He is well known in much of the world but relatively unknown in the United States. Tony Quote Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:47 am
4 by Tom Lilly on the profession advises the astrologer to look at Mercury, Venus and Mars and using a variety of conditions limit to one the significator of the profession. See page 624 in CA. Mercury and Venus are conjunct in the first house and the become the first candidates, but Venus is in detriment and Rx. Mercury is Rx, but not so badly placed as Venus, but the conjunction means she will qualify Mercury. Mercury is also conjunct the Moon by antiscion. Mercury beats out Venus and coupled with the sanguine temperament this is beginning to look like a ?scholar? of some kind. Mercury rules the 9th house so we?re looking for a 9th house kind of profession. Mars, as significator of the profession is really tempting despite his being in the second house. He is in mutual reception with Jupiter, exaltation ruler of the MC. He will work with Jupiter. How? Tony asked an intriguing set of questions. What is the native?s profession? What is he known for? What role did he play in society? This implies there are different answers for all those questions. If we looked at the chart of Dr. Christian Barnard we might say he was a doctor and he was known for medical things. But the implication here is for something else. Sorry Tony, I know this isn?t astrological, but I couldn?t help but notice. Mercury, our significator of the profession is conjunct the Moon, ruler of the 10th, by antiscion. Antiscion is known as the shadow or behind the scenes sort of conjunction. Coupled with the ruler of the MC we may find our native, has a dual ?career? or is known for things besides his career. This may be further accentuated by the Mars ? Jupiter mutual reception. Mars is one of Lilly?s significators of profession and Jupiter is the exaltation ruler of the MC. Although Tony didn?t supply the information, a glance at the coordinates of the chart indicates the native was born near Havana, Cuba. I couldn?t help but notice that. The latitude was a giveaway. So combining astrological information with non astrological information, I?ve come up with a scenario, and I?m not betting hevy on it. The native lost a parent or parents in the Cuban Revolution when Castro came to power. As a result his politics are anti-Castro and he has engaged in activites that would be considered subversive to the Cuban government. He possibly held a 9th house profession, lawyer, teacher, or religious, perhaps a writer, or if the Mercury ? Venus conjunction led to a performing arts career a singer or other kind of entertainer which masked his subversive activity. On the other hand, maybe he?s Castro?s brother. Tom Quote Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:18 pm
5 by granny_skot The mercury Moon connection makes me think poet. odd I know, but also his 27 Libra rising aligns with IZAR 'the belt of the shouter', so possibly musically inclined, but makes me think speaks from the gut. Cancer rising is aligned with Aludra - the back of the dog, the star was known as Isis by grotius according to Ann wright. who goes on to say "Influence of the constellation: It is said to give good qualities, charity and a faithful heart, but violent and dangerous passions. There is some danger from, or fear of, darkness and the night, and liability to dog bites, though the latter characteristic is probably associated more particularly with Sirius (this star). Canis Major is connected by the Kabalists with the Hebrew letter Tzaddi and the 18th Tarot Trump, "The Moon". (Robson)." His Moon being an important part of his makeup in his 4th house,in air, makes me think he is deeply soulfull person with strong, revolutionary(but that isn't the word I really want, maybe unusual, or out of the ordinary?) ways of seeing the world and how people should treat each other. Possibly his Mother fed his poetical soul. so much going on in the first house, including Jupiter as focus of strong T square, I think this was a very visible individual, who benefitted from his antagonism of the - for lack of better term, I'll call it the mainstream - I think he did not like others dictating to him in anyway, the Jupiter first house Scorpio, just screams someone who is their own person. Air risning, Air moon coupled with water MC, Water Mercury(though harsh scorpio, so possibly jaded) and water Venus (though debilitated) give a passionate, soulfull communicator... sun and mars in second in sag ... Trine SAturn in 10th, money from antagonism with authorities? probably not a money centered individual. With his 8th house ruled by taurus and his venus in 1st house, I wonder if his death was public or publicized in some way ( you sorta allude to him being passed away already in your opening post, as in what was he known for, not why is he well known, type discussion) Also Venus, lady of death in this instance square Authority, Saturn and Death, Pluto... so food for thought... chiron in the first house also makes me think that his words were cathartic or healing in some sense. and Uranus at 20 Gem in the 8th make me think he was definitely involved in war or battle of some kind. 20 Gem , but these are side notes not main focus... Neptune in 12th makes me think idealism about a large institution? self undoing from trusting in wrong group? possibly. To sum up - Okay in some manner I think this person was a poet, in the idealogical sense of Bob Dylan and Beatles, etc. Kind of poet. Probably either spoke or sang to large groups and had difficulties with some authority. Granny Quote Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:37 pm
6 by TonyLouis So far the comments are well in the ball park. Just to clarify, this person is still living and active in his career. As Tom noted he was born in Cuba and is well known throughout the Spanish-speaking world. Tom, Could you say more about the significators of manners and how they are derived? Also, you comments about Ted Bundy got me thinking. The data I have for Bundy are: 24 NOV 1946 at 10:35 PM EST Burlington Vermont 44 N 29, 73 W 12 ASC 25 Leo 03 MC 16 TAU 30 Moon 17 SAG 41 The planetary positions of the two charts are close except for the Moon, which lies in Aquarius in the mystery chart and in Sagittarius in Bundy's chart. Bundy has Moon conjunct Mars, while the other chart has Moon sextile the Sun which lies 10 degrees before Mars in Sagittarius. Bundy has Saturn in Leo retrograde in the 12th (a traditionally bad house) and the contrantiscion of Saturn conjoins his natal Venus. Bundy also has Pluto retrograde in the 12th, with the anticsion/contranticion of Pluto fairly exactly on the meridian. Modern astrologers have associated Pluto with violence and mass death. The mystery chart has Saturn in the 10th (a traditionally good house) with the contrantiscion of Saturn conjunct Mercury. In addition, the antiscion of the Moon conjoins Mercury. He is not a serial killer and, unlike Bundy, he is generally held in high esteem. Tony Quote Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:13 pm
7 by Tom The significator of the manners or what Ptolemy called the "quality of the mind (Ashmand) or soul (Robbins) are the planet or usually planets that express the temperament. The idea is that a natal reading is like a pyramid. The temperament is the base then the manners or quality of mind is next highest and so on. Ptolemy gives the following rules in Book III of Tetrabiblos: 1) A planet in the first house. I was taught to add the following refinement - the planet should be close to the ASC and definitely in the same sign of the ASC. If there is one, then this is our significator of the manners. 2) If not look for a planet (or planets) that are in tight aspect to Mercury AND the Moon. If there is one (this is rare) then this our significator of the manners. 3) If not we look for the planet or planets that most engage Mercury and the Moon and this is the most common; it is also the most difficult. 'To engage" isn't all that specific. Some times Mercury and the Moon are in many of the dignities of the planet or planets. Sometimes they can be the planet that next aspects Mercury and the Moon, but in that case I would look to see if other planets either engage both Mercury and the Moon or at least each other. 4) Although Mercury can be a significator of manners, The Sun and Moon cannot unless they are extremely well fortified and positioned and nothing else is. 5) If all else fails, use Lord ASC. A good example is Janis Joplin who has Mercury and the Moon next apply to Saturn in Gemini and Jupiter in Cancer near the Moon in Cancer. Notice Saturn and Jupiter are in each other's detriment. They are in a negative mutual reception and they work together in Joplin's chart. That brings us to the next point. How well they work together or how poorly they work together tells us something as well. In the mystery chart I selected Venus and Mercury as SOM. Venus and Mercury can work quite well together. Planets like Mars and Saturn do not work so well together, but they can. A choleric with Mars as a significator of the manners might well be tempered with help from Saturn. Notice, in the mystery chart, Moon and Mercury are in mutual reception by triplicity. They are also in aspect by sign. This by itself, indicates a good working mind. The imaginative sense is working nicely with the rational mind. Venus is conjunct Mercury and Mercury is in the triplicity of the Moon. I found nothing better and I gave Venus a few points for being lady of the ASC. Of this combination Ptolemy says: "Conciliated with Mercury and posited with glory, Venus makes men lovers of the arts, philosophical, of scientific mind, and good genius, poetical, delighting in learning and elegance, polite, voluptuous,, luxurious in their habits of life, joyous, friendly, pious, prudent, fitted for various arts, intelligent, not misled by error, quick in learning, self teaching, emulous of worth, followers of virtue, copious and agreeable in speech, serene and sincere in manner, delighting in exercise, honest, judicious, high-minded, and continent in desire as regards women; but, when so conciliated and posited adversely, she will make men oppresive, fit for various arts, evil tongued, unsteady, malevolent, fraudulent, turbulent liars, calumniators, faithless, crafty, insidious, practiced in evil, uncourteous, debauchers of women, corrupters of youth, fond, of personal adornment, dissolute, infamous, notoriously offensive and publicly complained of yet striving after all things." Ptolemy is clearly dealing in extremes, but in these passages, I've found it more rewarding to strive to catch the underlying themes rather than blindly applying the descriptive adectives he uses profusely, The most common phrases, good and bad are associated with (obviously) the artistic and the verbal. A sanguine artistic talent is likely to study the arts and find artistic ways of expression: singing and writing would be the most obivous, with playing an instrument or being a painter or sculpter (dexterity is Mercury) another possibility. In Ed Wood's case he expressed himself without talent and in poor taste, but that wouldn't stop someone who was "striving after all things." [NOTE: we can use Ptolemy's descriptions for aspects and mutual reception as well as the significator of manners] Notice, too that Ptolemy when describing a well placed Venus - Mercury emphasizes the good side of Venus, the arts, charm, manners, etc and when describing the down side we get the down side of Venus, vulgar, base, etc. These are combined with Mercury's significations nicely - a liar - spoken word, deceptive; evil tongued spoken word can be deceptive (gossip) or overt (sarcasm). Debauchers of youth. Mercury is associated with youth, a debilitated Venus with debauchery. But still I think the idea is to get an overall sense of the person. This chart has Mercury and Venus in less than admirable postions, but Tony tells us the man is well thought of (as opposed to "publicly complained of") Jupiter being in the same sign as Mercury and Venus will mitigate some of the ill in Ptolemy's description, and as exaltation ruler of the MC will help the reputation, and perhaps the native put the less than desireable attributes to good use somehow. Also, we all have our dark side. It's just that most of us keep it in check, the Ted Bundy's of the world do not. Like the temperament, this is rough work. It is finer than the temperament, but only one step finer and these things are made better or worse depending on aspects, placement, etc. About a year or so ago a few of us dissected Bundy's chart over on an other list. Some of the members did a really fine job, and I think they were students of Robert Zoller. I've always found Bundy's chart to be a mystery. Of the serious bad guys' charts I've seen, a battered ASC ruler is common, even if it isn't universal. Hitler comes to mind and if I recall Charlie Manson's ASC ruler gets mugged as well just to name two. Bundy's ASC ruler, the Sun, isn't all that bad, although it isn't all that strong, either. The most malefic thing I can see is that the Sun is sort of beseiged by Mars and by Mercury, who by being retrograde and keeping company with the debilitated Venus is an accidental malefic. But again we have the retrograde Venus and the contrantiscion by Saturn. Venus rules the MC. Yet Bundy was no ordinary killer and Charlie is quite tame by comparison. Manson may never have actually killed anyone. Bundy's thrill killings may be in the hundreds, although no hard evidence has emerged to support those kinds of numbers. But to compare to Manson, Manson's ego was battered and bruised. He had one of the worst childhood's I've ever read about. Bundy had some psychological disadvantages. He was told his mother, who gave birth to him out of wedlock, was really his sister and his grandparents were really his parents. The truth must have come as something of a shock. Yet perhaps the only man who had a positive influence on his life was his grandfather whom Ted genuinely seemed to love. Saturn in Leo in the 12th might not be all that bad, especially in a day chart, which Bundy's is not. Yes Saturn is in detriment and retrograde, but Saturn joys in the 12th, he is a day planet in a day or masculine sign and above the horizon. In a night chart this is a bit of a problem and the shadow being opposite a retrograde Venus in detriment is a problem. The only obvious ominous thing in Bundy's chart is the grouping near the IC. All those planets at the bottom of the chart have to mean something and since none of the are particularly strong, I'd say it is at least a red flag. Tom Quote Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:18 pm
8 by TonyLouis Tom, Thanks for the explanation of Ptolemy and manners. Regarding Saturn in the 12th, I seem to recall Lilly regarding Saturn as the author of mischief and that Saturn's joy in the 12th had to do with his ability to do mischief when so placed. Serial killing would qualify as a type of mischief. I'll reveal the mystery person at the end of the week. Tony Quote Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:08 pm