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Ipswich Serial Killer
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SusanA



Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 28
Location: New Zealand

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:49 am    Post subject: Ipswich Serial Killer Reply with quote

I've greatly enjoyed Deb's brilliant site and this group of forums with their many excellent contributors for some time now, and am finally brave enough to emerge from lurkerdom to post this thread!

I'm especially interested in mundane and horary astrology, and traditional astrology increasingly makes more sense to me than other approaches.

I've been following the dreadful news about the murders of women in and around Ipswich, with an eye on possible astrological patterns linking them with similar past events.

Saturn's current placement in detriment (and recently turned retro) in Leo seems significant to me, so I took a look at the timing of the first murders by two previous UK serial murderers of women, "Jack the Ripper" (first victim August 1888) and the "Yorkshire Ripper", Peter Sutcliffe (October 1975). Sure enough, Saturn was in Leo at both these times.

Sutcliffe himself has Saturn in Cancer, also in detriment, (and conjunct the Moon in the 8th) and his Saturn return occurred in July 1975 (based on his B-rated birth data, 8.30 pm BST, 2 June 1946, Bingley, UK). His first attack upon a woman that year occurred in July - she survived as did another two women he attacked in August, before murdering Wilma McCann on 30 October. Prostitutes have been the first victims in all three groups of killings, although I don't think either Sutcliffe or Jack the Ripper killed only prostitutes.

Astrology is about cycles and repeating patterns, and it is the job of astrologers to identify them, but I don't want to lay responsibility for these terrible events at the feet of a badly placed Saturn without more study, so am very interested to know what others think. Is this is a meaningful pattern? (After all, lots of people with nasty Saturns manage not to become serial killers, and Saturn's transits through Leo & Cancer are almost certainly not always associated with serial killings.)

If it is meaningful, why might it be associated with the UK? (a Capricorn nation if we use the 1066 chart). What other factors might be relevant? Are there other series of murders of women that might be part of the same cycle?

If this Saturn transit is significant, there may be at least one useful prediction we could make: that the killer is around 30 years old, with Saturn in Cancer or Leo, therefore born around the time of the Yorkshire Ripper's first murders, so has recently experienced his first Saturn return.

Of course, there's a good chance the murderer is in this age group, as younger men are more likely to commit murder than older ones - although why people like Sutcliffe wait until they are 30 to do it is interesting. Maybe that's just when their activities become obvious, or when they escalate from assault to murder.

I look forward to reading your responses.
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Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Susan,

Welcome to the site. You've certainly picked a difficult one for your first topic. I have also spent some time today thinking about this issue. I wanted to be able to draw up a chart but am still not sure what the correct chart would be. I've been trying to find some dates and times. Some that I have thought about were the last sighting of the first woman murdered. I believe this is about 11:07pm on 30th October. Another possibility is 2nd December at just before midday when the first body was found. But I am not convinced that this would be the correct way to go.

I agree with you that astrology is about cycles and that it is important to look at these things in this sort of situation. I think it is a good idea to see if there are any patterns linking these murders with others of a similar nature. Saturn is a possibility but I would imagine that there is more to it than that. The patterns and cycles that are evident at the times of serial killings is something worth considering.

I am just on my way out now but I will give this some more thought.

Cheers
Sue
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting that just yesterday I read a report that police in the UK are going to be in touch with police in New Jersey concerning this case. A few weeks ago the bodies of four prostitutes were found in Atlantic City, NJ, and there are some similarities to the Ipswich killings. At this point, no one is claiming the two cases are related. The effort is being made "just in case."

I tried looking for astrology links a long time ago using the infamous case of the California serial killer known as "The Zodiac." Although the locations and times of the murders are pretty well known, I never found an astrological link despite the killer's self-chosen alias. He never gave a reason why he chose that name, and some astrology was associated with the crimes. He used astrological glyphs, among other symbols, in his ciphers. He was never caught.

Tom
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
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Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zodiac killer, just a thought but, perhaps he was using astrology to choose times least likely to get caught?

the Atlantic City murders happened all around one hotel and there were four women, there have been four women in Ipswich, if I recall correctly. If this person is one and the same, the next move would be to move on to new territory, but this will help give him away, as travel narrows the possiblities. Starting with known last seen times may indeed be a way to start, lets see if we get a mercury killer... a traveling man... thoughts?

also just a thought, but do ATlantic City and Ipswich have any companies in common?

could also give indication as to if they are related or not.

Granny
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granny_skot



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Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I decided to have a look at the last person killed, which seems to be number 5 in ipswich, and this is what I observe....


The last woman found was last seen Sunday night Midnight getting into a Blue BMW with chubby man with short dark hair. That would be 10 December 2006, midnight Ipswich. Rising is 23 Virgo 20 for Midnight
(when they say Midnight here I'm assuming the midnight that straddles Monday, not saturday into sunday, please correct me if I err)

Denebola rising: aligned with South Node!
General influence of the star: According to Ptolemy it is of the nature of Saturn and Venus; to Wilson and Pearce, of Saturn, Venus and Mercury; to Simmonite, of Uranus; and, to Alvidas, of Mercury, Uranus and Mars. It gives swift judgment, despair, regrets, public disgrace, misfortune from the elements of nature, and happiness turned to anger, and makes its natives noble, daring, self-controlled, generous and busy with other people's affairs. (Robson).
The 'Tail of the Lion' has a Uranian nature and it is supposed that, in mundane horoscopes, major catastrophes are triggered off by it. Depending on the position and aspect to other stellar bodies in a personal cosmogram, either preferment or fall are credited to this star. Found on the Ascendant and especially in company with Mercury, a quarrelsome nature, with a liking for legal action is attributed to Denebola. It could also mean that this star is the cause of very exciting events. Badly placed in a map, with Mercury or Uranus, mental diseases - and those mostly incurable ones - are indicated. Fine aspects however, will further work connected with matters of reform and progress. (Ebertin).
If rising: Riches, preferment and good fortune attended by many dangers and anxieties through own folly, benefits seldom last, trouble and sickness. (Robson).
Mercury just past conj with Mars, and coming away from Square to Saturn.

Sun, Pluto and Venus all hanging around the IC of 20 Sag 35
Sun aligned with Sabik –
General influence of the star: According to Ptolemy it is of the nature of Saturn and Venus; and, to Alvidas, of Jupiter and Venus. It causes wastefulness, lost energy, perverted morals, and success in evil deeds. (Robson).
With Sun: Sincere, honorable, scientific, religious and philosophical interests, unorthodox or heretical, moral courage, bad for gain. (Robson).

21 Gemini 16 on the MC Bellatrix –
General influence of the star: According to Ptolemy it is like Mars and Mercury; and, to Alvidas, Mercury and Mars in good aspect. It gives great civil or military honor but danger of sudden dishonor, renown, wealth, eminent friends and liability to accidents causing blindness and ruin. If prominent in a woman's map it makes her loquacious and shrewish, and gives a high-pitched, hard and sharp voice. (Robson).
If positive properties can be drawn out, will lead to advancement and success, but those who succeed always have to allow for being surrounded with envy and hatred. Quick decision making, thoughts and plans being realized with energy, courage, fighting spirit, strategic talents, ability to organize, discrimination. Reckless aggressiveness of a belligerent daredevil. (Ebertin).
Associated with marriage for money and honors followed by reverses. (Larousse Encyclopedia of Astrology).
Great courage, but a tendency to fight futile or lost causes if it is not well aspected. (Dr. Eric Morse).
If culminating: Quarrels, hatred, fraud committed or suffered, forgery, swindling, coining and perjury. (Robson).
Jupiter Mars and mercury all somewhat aligned with dschubba isidus, 2 sag 34

General influence of the star: According to Ptolemy it is of the nature of Mars and Saturn; and to Alvidas, of Jupiter in square to the Moon. It causes sudden assaults, malevolence, immorality and shamelessness. (Robson).
This star and Acrab are both positioned next to each other in the Scorpion's head, they are supposed to correspond to a Mars character with a blend of Saturn characteristics. Dr Koch is of the opinion that both these stars are 'doubtful'. The effect of these two stars has yet to be researched more fully. According to tradition, these stars are credited with giving the ability to do research, and especially research into things of a particularly secret and hidden nature. For this to be however, further influence of the sign Scorpio and planets Mercury and Uranus have also to be present; preferably these stellar bodies would be positioned on the MC or Ascendant and be near another stellar body pointing to mental capabilities. In lower types, however, a tendency to falsehood and treason can be noted. Both stars are a poor augury for material wealth. There will be difficulties, impediments, or loss, dependent upon the position these have in the cosmogram. In mundane maps, there is an indication of mass catastrophes, should either Mars, Saturn or Uranus be in this first degrees of Sagittarius, especially in an angular position. (Ebertin).
Situated on the head of the Scorpion, not where its armament is, which is at the rear. It is a fighter of great skill and characterizes Mars-Saturn perfectly. Anyone with this star strong in their horoscope is likely to show a patient and wary approach to any situation, but this will belie the skilled determination which will then be brought to bear. Scorpio is famous for the surgeons born in it and this star shows up just the qualities which they need to have. The same applies to generals, policemen, private investigators and secret service agents, many of whom have this star well placed and aspected. In research of all other kinds too, it distinguishes the real adept. (Dr. Eric Morse).
With Jupiter: Deceitful, dishonest, dissipated, low companions, danger of imprisonment. (Robson).
With Mars: Immoral, criminal, violent, evil environment, sudden or violent death. (Robson).
With Mercury: Hypocritical, evil mind, low associates, imprisonment, malignant disease but chances of recovery, criminal, secrets in connection with life or parentage, domestic disharmony. (Robson).


Venus in Critical area, she is in 4th, the bottom of the chart and at 29 Sag 43, poised to go to Capricorn, the earth… She has just left trine with Saturn. Aligned with Acumen, the sting! Ouch. also Venus is dignified at 1 CApricorn, which makes me wonder if death has not dignified this woman in some way? possibly seeing the dead as nicer people? not certain, just on odd notation..
The Moon is at 1 Virgo 15 in the 12th. Square Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, Jupiter is the murderer.
Somewhat aligned with Megrez - History of the star: A pale yellow star. The Arabic name for Megrez is Al-Maghriz (1), the "Root of the Tail" or "The insertion-point" of the Bear's tail Ursa Major [Magrez may be Arabic for "Buttocks"?]. –
Influence of the constellation: It is said to give a quiet, prudent, suspicious, mistrustful, self-controlled, patient nature, but an uneasy spirit and great anger when roused. By the Kabalists it is associated with the Hebrew letter Zain and the 7th Tarot Trump "The Chariot". (Robson).
Twelfth house of self undoing, knew that she shouldn’t be on street or getting in with him and did??? Didn’t listen to instincts or to warnings?

here the man is jupiter in sag, in own sign, in own terms, so travel may still be part of the issue, he is Pisces Jupiter in Sag. She is Virgo Mercury (odd for a sex worker?) conj jupiter, meeting in the parking lot (3rd house)

the observer said a chubby man with dark hair, the description on skyscript of a jupiter man is "Signifies an upright, straight and tall stature; brown, ruddy and lovely complexion; of an oval or long visage, and it full or fleshy; high forehead; large grey eyes; his hair soft, and a kind of auburn brown; much beard; a large, deep belly: strong proportioned thighs and legs; his feet long, being the most indecent parts of his whole body; in his speech he is sober, and of grave discourse."

debs discussion of third house Skyscript, first page: "Main Rulerships:
Brothers and sisters, cousins or general members of the family (not parents, they belong to the 4th house). Neighbours and our local neighbourhood. The environment in which we live and work. Short journeys or those made on a regular basis. Lilly notes that this house shows a propensity for: "oft removing from one place to another" ([CA], p.52).
Letters, rumours, reports, messages and messengers. Communications generally. Newspapers, magazines, telephones, postal service. Written deeds and contracts. Speeches and debates. Our ability to express ourselves and communicate to others. Languages, mobility skills and self-expression. "

and
In Events:
As above, related to whoever initiates the action. Barbara Watters notes: "if very afflicted it may indicate that he who makes an offer or proposes something is lying" ([JoE], p.64).

I find it interesting that mars is ruler of 8 and she has passed mars and jupiter at last sighting, meaning she has already met the means of her demise, prior? I wonder too, if there is more than one man involved? if mars is the means or a person? Mars rules the third as well, which perhaps means she was murdered in the Blue BMW? Jupiter rules 4th as well as 7th,

of the fourth house, from skyscript:
Associated Planets:
Manilius viewed the 4th house as the temple of Saturn. Both are related to ancestry, land, agriculture, mining and death - this relevancy suggests a heightened emphasis on these affairs when Saturn is connected with the 4th house by location or rulership.
Cosignificators are Cancer and the Sun; Lilly notes: "In Nativities or Questions, this fourth house represents fathers, so doth the Sun by day and Saturn by night; yet if the Sun be herein placed, he is not ill, but rather shows the father to be of a noble disposition, &c. " ([CA], p.53).
Sun conj 4th house cusp
Places the sun signifies:Houses, courts of princes, palaces, theatres, all magnificent structures being clear and decent, halls, dining rooms.

I think the sun on angle here is significant, but I'm not certain why...
Also Part of Fortune on this chart is squarely in the fourth at 10 Cap 53
The ARabic part of Danger or violence is at 14 gemini 18
Part of Death at 8 Tau 20
I see no direct connections here Part of death is loosly aligned with Azha which Ann Wright gives as :History of the star: A pale yellow star in Eridanus, the River.

Arabic name for Azha is Al-Udhi (1), "The hatching-place". Azha is supposed to have been the Azha of Al Sufi, and the equivalent Ashiyane of the Persians, and was known by Kazwini as Al Udhiyy, being chief among the stars of the Ostrich's Nest, which the word signifies. The other components were zeta (Zibal), rho, and sigma. (Allen).

Part of Danger loosely aligned with Cursa - ann wright gives - History of the star: A topaz yellow star in the River, Eridanus.

The Arabic name for Cursa, Al-Kursi (1), "The chair" or Al Kursiyy al Jauzah, the "Chair", or "Footstool", of the Central One, i.e. Orion, formed by beta, lamda, and psi Eridani and regarded as the support of his left foot.

In the earlier astronomy of the Arabs it was one of Al Udha al Na'am, "the Ostrich's Nest", that some extended to omega1 and omega2.

The Century Cyclopedia gives Dhalim as an alternative title, undoubtedly from Al Thalim, the Ostrich; but, although used for beta by several writers, this better belongs to theta. (Allen).

The only real dignity the moon has is she is in her triplicity, Mercury is in detriment, though in her face. Jupiter is really very strong in this chart.

okay off the wall notation, Jupiter is in his day house... might this person work in or near the parking garage? possibly borrowing the car from some one? okay just an odd thought...
Jupiter is in night triplicity, in his terms, I"m not certain how he could possibly be any better situated. He's got control of the wheel. I do wonder if perhaps Sun is the element of the law, who is day ruler of Sag and possibly shows that Sun ran into him in the past?

well a few things to mull over in any case.

Granny
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deeptiman



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Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:42 pm    Post subject: Solar Ingress chart Reply with quote

Hello, i think that a relevant astrological fact live in the Solar ingress chart to Libra,using coordinates of london, England.First of all,there was an lunation in the day prior,and Venus in fall was near the point-venus related to women,it shows affliction to women,mainly because the Moon rules house 8 of the lunation chart calculated to London.
In the Solar ingress chart,Mars lord of house 8 afflicts Mercury lord of ascendente showing death of the people -Mars is in detriment in Libra and conjunct fixed star Vindemiatrix,fixed star related to mourning.Venus,dispositor of Mars has anticion point at 9 aries,falling in house 8 in aspect of opposition with this nasty Mars.Venus is conjunct Denebola fixed star,a venusian star with bad reputation of infortune and disaster in mundane charts.
Mars in transit is now conjunct I.C. of this chart, an angle,acting as a "trigger"
All the best
Gerson
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SusanA



Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 28
Location: New Zealand

Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks Sue, Tom, Granny & Deeptiman for your thoughtful comments which have opened up several further lines of inquiry for me.

Before I go on, I want to emphasise that my interest in this subject has been sparked by the possibility that it is a cyclical phenomenon, and therefore falls squarely within the field of astrological study. I’m sure we’re all aware of the profound grief, distress and pain felt by the family, friends and communities of the victims, and am also sure you join me in extending our sympathy to them. I have no interest at all in wallowing in the details of these crimes. Instead, my focus is on astrology’s usefulness as a predictive and investigative tool.

So I won’t insert a pile of info here about the definition of serial murder, types of killers etc, but Wikipedia is a good, non-sensational source of information about these murders and serial killings in general.

Obviously, we can look at murders as individual events and attempt to unravel or explain them by obtaining birth and death data for the victims, and, eventually, the natal chart, transits, progressions etc of the killer; or we can consider each group of murders which have been, or appear to be committed by a serial killer, and see whether or not they are part of a longer cycle, or cycles. I’m taking the second approach, which is why I began with the data for the first murder in each of the three UK series: Jack The Ripper (1888), the Yorkshire Ripper (1975) and Ipswich (2006).
The Ipswich murders have already been explicitly and repeatedly compared with the two previous series.

Granny – I agree that a last seen chart is valid for examining what happened to a particular victim, and your delineation of that chart for the latest victim is helpful for the clues it offers about the murderer and its description of the circumstances surrounding the meeting between murder and victim.

However, in this case, as Sue suggests, I’ve used the “last seen” data for the first Ipswich victim, Tania Nicol, who appeared on CCTV footage at 11:07 pm, 29 October 2006, Ipswich. Because her body wasn’t found until 8 December, it’s as close as we can get to the time of her death – which is the moment this series of murders was born, at least as far as we know at this stage.

As Tom notes, Suffolk police are investigating the possibility of a link between the five Ipswich murders and the four Atlantic City murders. Six other unsolved murders of girls & young women in East Anglia, dating back to 1992, are also being re-examined.

The best data I can find for the two earlier series is:

Mary Ann Nichols – first victim of Jack the Ripper
3:30 am GMT +0:00
31 August 1888 NS
London
51N30 000W10

Wilma McCann – first murder victim of Peter Sutcliffe
1:30 am GMT +0:00
30 October 1975
Leeds
53N50 001W35


I note in passing the co-incidence of the names Nicol and Nicholls, and the dates: all on or very close to the last day of the month.

When the charts for the 1888, 1975 and 2006 series are viewed on a tri-wheel (with the 1888 series as the inner wheel) Saturn in Leo leaps out as a key connection among them, appearing in either the 12th or 1st houses of the 1888 chart. Lilly's description of Saturn when badly placed (adapted by Deb on this site) is relevant: "envious, covetous, jealous and mistrustful, timorous, sordid, outwardly dissembling, sluggish, suspicious, stubborn, a condemner of women, a close liar, malicious, murmuring, never contented, ever repining."

I haven’t been able to find a “last seen” time for the first Atlantic City victim, as there’s still some doubt about the times & dates of their disappearances and likely deaths. (An aside you’ll all appreciate: I’ve just calculated a chart for Atlantic City at 9.20 pm, the time in my location as I write this, to check the city’s co-ordinates. As if to make sure I don’t miss it, there’s Saturn in Leo, sitting right on the Ascendant!)

Deeptiman, your post about the Libra ingress reminds us to consider all the charts relevant in mundane astrology. John Frawley gives a great example of event delineation in The Real Astrology, when he considers the bombing of Coventry (chapter 12, pp. 131-7), using the city’s foundation chart, the 1921 Grand Conjunction of Jupiter & Saturn, the 1921 Aries Ingress, the Third Reich’s birth chart, the Eclipse before the outbreak of war, Coventry’s solar and lunar returns before the raid, and the full moon which fell on the night of the raid.

I don’t have the foundation data for Ipswich or Atlantic City, but thanks, Deeptiman, for your comments on the solar ingress chart and the lunation of 29 October.

The only fixed star aspected in all three UK murder series charts is Agena at 22-24 Scorpio: conjunct Mars in 1888; conjunct NN in 1975; and conjunct Jupiter in 2006. (I don’t know how to interpret the star parans which Brady considers more useful than star aspects.)

Finally, if Saturn’s cycle is relevant to this particular cycle of serial murders, in the UK at least, there seem to be a couple of gaps around 1917-19 (WW1 and the great flu pandemic may have killed or otherwise derailed any likely serial murderers) and again in 1946-48 (end of WW2).

I know there’s a lot more to examine in these charts - any further comments are welcome!
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:52 pm    Post subject: Caught? Reply with quote

An arrest has been made:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,237102,00.html

I hope this is the right guy and he's off the streets for good.

Tom
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granny_skot



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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do note that he fits one thing I thought interesting in the last seen chart. The last seen chart indicated that the woman knew her killer before hand, he was allegedly a "friend" of all five women. this makes sense to me.

A few other things as well, I'm hoping to get birth data on him.

Granny
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SusanA



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Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, assuming he's guilty, news of this guy's arrest is very welcome.
And granny's point about the victim having previous knowledge of him seems spot on. If what I've read so far about his behaviour is correct, he appears to have befriended all five women over a period of time before killing them and saw himself as their protector - as well as a regular client.

As with many serial killers it seems his activity was triggered by a particular traumatic event, in this case, the break-up of his marriage 18 months ago; but at 37, he's somewhat older than I expected, and won't have Saturn in Leo. (I know Tom will be relieved about that!!). If he was born in 1969 his Saturn will be in Aries (Fall) or Taurus.
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SusanA



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Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I wonder too, if there is more than one man involved?


So wrote granny - and now another, 48-year-old man has been arrested. This plot doth thicken mightily!

It seems doubts about Mr Stephens' guilt have arisen following his arrest and the media now speculates that he's a fantasist. I'm certainly not prepared to speculate any further, at least for now - a horary would have been interesting, don't you think?
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SusanA



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Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I take it back about a horary, because I don't like using it for questions from which the querent is too distant and which therefore lack the degree of personal urgency that makes horary work. I seem to remember Deb writing about this too.
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As with many serial killers it seems his activity was triggered by a particular traumatic event, in this case, the break-up of his marriage 18 months ago;


I've often wondered about things like this and wonder if it is a chicken and egg question. Lots and lots of us suffer traumatic events, and yet, mercifully only the tiniest of percentages become serial killers. And I even wonder about that. Ted Bundy, did not seem to suffer an individual traumatic event, but rather may have been motivated by an all consuming rage. This may also be true of Jeffrey Dahmer.

What is more interesting is the marriage part. Although it caused quite a stir in feminist circles about thrity years ago, George Gilder's research into criminally violent behavior has never been refuted. It was originally titled Sexual Suicide. Political pressure was brought to bear on the publisher who withdrew the book shortly after publication. It was republished a few years later with a different title. He must have hit too close to home for some. I don't recall the precise numbers, but it seems that, in the US anyway, the vast majority of violent crimes (and other serious anti social acts) are committed by unmarried men. Violent crimes committed by women, although less common, showed no such pattern. A violent woman was no more likely to be married than unmarried. There is also a profile for serial killers (Gilder's work included all sorts of criminal behavior) that they are white, single, loners, in the rough age bracket of 18 - 35. In fact most violent crime is committed in that age demographic [ASIDE: There was a serious decline in violent crime in the US and all the politicians broke their arms patting themselves on the back taking credit for it. The fact is that there was a significant demographic shift: a dip in the population of men in that age bracket. There is a bulge coming and violent crime is inching up again. I'm certain the current crop of politicians will all assume responsbility for it]. That this man was married at all is surprising. Had I ever met Mr. Gilder I would have asked him if these men were single because they were crazy or crazy because they were single. He seemed to imply the latter.

There are exceptions. The so-called BTK killer was married for a long time. But that is rare. Bundy, Sam Berkowitz, the Hillside Stranglers, and others were all unmarried.


Quote:
but at 37, he's somewhat older than I expected, and won't have Saturn in Leo. (I know Tom will be relieved about that!!).


Yes I am. Wink It's bad enough having a Saturn like Ted Bundy's, I don't need more destructive individuals associated with my chart. 37 is a bit old for this, but these guys rarely start with the crimes they are ultimately charged with. Bundy may have killed a girl when he was about 13 or 14. Usually they work their way up to murder, and can't stop once they start, which is why I believe California's Zodiac killer (unsolved and now a very old case - DNA seems to have absolved a once-good now deceased suspect) died shortly after his final taunting letter to the San Francisco PD.

Tom.
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SusanA



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Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Lots and lots of us suffer traumatic events, and yet, mercifully only the tiniest of percentages become serial killers. And I even wonder about that.


Tom, that's an excellent point, and the sort of thing we need to be thinking about. Thank you for raising it, and for the information about George Gilder's research, which in turn reminds me of something I've read about marriage making men happy and women unhappy, but perhaps that's just a one-eyed feminist theory!

There's always a danger in focussing on one particular feature that a group of people appear to have in common eg Saturn in Leo or a recent traumatic event. Life, people and astrology are all more complex than that.

It can lead us to overlook, for example, an individual's interaction with other people and other circumstances that may be less obvious than a divorce, but just as important.

We also need to think about the astrology of victims as well as the perpetrators of crimes. This raises the idea of fate, or fatedness which we 21st century Westerners are so uncomfortable about. It may turn out to have more to do with our profound connectedness, both to each other and the cosmos - a concept that western science, at least, is beginning to cope with.

I wish I could remember the name of the astrologer who wrote an excellent study of the natal charts of the children murdered at Dunblane, and identified common elements in the charts of those who died, which those who survived didn't have. The article didn't downplay the tragedy of that event, but it certainly dealt with the possibility that very little about it was accidental or random.

And there may be, for some people, real consolation in that. There's a very good book written by the mother of a young girl named Kirsa Jensen who went missing, and is assumed to have been murdered in NZ, in the 1980s. The only comfort she found through the whole dreadful experience of losing her daughter was meeting Elisabeth Kubler Ross, who asked the mother if Kirsa had displayed any sign of knowing what would happen to her. Her mother recalled three apparent signs and EKR told her that her daughter's soul had always known what would happen and that there had been nothing she, the mother, could have done to prevent it.

Now that may be simply a new age version of traditional religious consolation, with as much or as little weight as we choose to give it: your daughter's okay because she's in heaven or because it was her fate to die at age 14. Neither of these propositions is very easy to accept, but Mrs Jensen, at least, found more comfort in the second than the first, despite previously having a strong Christian faith.

The research about the propensity - if that's the right term - of unmarried men to commit serious crimes presents another scary prospect: all the "only boys" in China, coming of age in a rapidly changing society, and likely to find that there just aren't enough women for them to marry. Here are the figures from Wikipedia:

0-14 years: 20.8% (male 145,461,833; female 128,445,739)
15-64 years: 71.4% (male 482,439,115; female 455,960,489)
65 years and over: 7.7% (male 48,562,635; female 53,103,902) (2006 est.)
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Susan – its good to see you in the forum.

Quote:
I wish I could remember the name of the astrologer who wrote an excellent study of the natal charts of the children murdered at Dunblane, and identified common elements in the charts of those who died, which those who survived didn't have. The article didn't downplay the tragedy of that event, but it certainly dealt with the possibility that very little about it was accidental or random.


This must be the article “Who will survive?” by Ken Gilman, past editor of Considerations. It’s available online at http://www.considerations-mag.com/articles/whoWillSurvive.htm
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