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Mystery Chart No 3

 
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:40 pm    Post subject: Mystery Chart No 3 Reply with quote

I know I know I promised a woman, but the women's charts I've looked at have few timed events and accurate charts have been a problem. I'll keep looking. This one should provide some interesting responses.

Also Tony's chart was really No 3, but he didn't number his and I'm going to number mine.

Male
March 9, 1943
7:39 PM GMT
87 W 39
41 N 51

NOTE GMT!!!!!!!!

00 Leo 35 - ASC
14 Aries 54 MC
2 Taurus 05 - Moon
I'm trying to disguise this as much as possible. Moderns may wish to take a crack at it since there are some interesting things in the chart from the modern perspective.

Is this person famous? Unknown? Infamous? Good guy? Bad Guy?

Have fun.

Tom


Last edited by Tom on Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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TonyLouis



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 79

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom,

Could you post the ASC, Moon position, etc so we can be sure we are working with the right chart.

I get ASC 0 Leo 35 and Moon at 2 Taurus 5.
MC at 14 Aries 54.

Tony
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tony,

Sorry I forgot. The positions you mentioned are exactly correct. I'll do the same for the other chart.

Tom
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what program are you using that you can type in lat and long instead of a place name? cause looking this up before going into Astrodienst to look at the chart is highly irritating. thanks, Granny
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TonyLouis



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is this person famous? Unknown? Infamous? Good guy? Bad Guy?


This is quite a striking chart, so I would opt for a famous person. Here are some preliminary observations.

Both Venus and Mars are strongly angular. Mars rules the MC and conjoins the DSC. Venus tightly conjoins the MC. Venus disposes the ASC-ruler Sun by exaltation, triplicity, and face, suggesting that this persons corpus, vita et ingenium lead to public recognition. Venus is also Almuten figuris, so that Venus strongly colors all aspects of this person's life. Mars rules the 5th and 10th (and the 6th by exaltation), and Mars is in paran-square to Venus in the 10th. The Venus/5th house theme suggests the performing arts. With Jupiter exalted in Cancer in the 12th trine the ASC-ruler Sun, he could be a singer, actor, entertainer, or dancer.

You mentioned the modern planets. Mars trine Neptune is often musical and creative and is common in charts of attractive persons, often of glamorous appearance, such as leading actors with lots of sex appeal. There is a striking close grand trine of Mars, Uranus, and Neptune with these two modern planets both closely sextile the ASC. The modern planets are often regarded as generational, so maybe this person is a type of icon or spokesperson for his generation.

Leo rising with Pluto in Leo in the 1st close to the ASC suggests a powerful or commanding personal presence. Bruce Scofield has noted that people with Leo rising are often the first born, the only child, or as children have a long period where they are the sole apple of their parents' eye. This leads to a sense of self-importance and an expection to be admired and valued by everyone they meet.

12th ruler Mercury in the 8th sesquisquare Jupiter Rx in the 12th suggests a tendency to problems with drugs or alcohol, or other forms of self-undoing. This is not a very close aspect but the 8th/12th house combination suggests some difficulties, probably with alcohol, at some time in his life.


Last edited by TonyLouis on Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 0 Leo AScendent argues for a person who is center stage in whatever they do.

The Sun in Pisces in 9th makes me think, knowledge or information, some doomsday attitude possibly, Law? maybe, but Courtroom might not be stage enough for this man with his Mars on Descendent, passionate about ... well since it is a humane sign ...social and intellectual persuits.
possibly political, but I dont think its a politician, the Neptune in 3rd makes me think something newsy, either famous columnist or possibly newsperson, that Idealism in Libra has a very Lou Dobbs kind of appeal. Trine Mars with 1 degree, very strong idealism and passion for human plight, with tight trine to Uranus at 0 Gemini, the air here is very communications oriented.

Real stong me factor with pluto in leo in first, which seems contradictory, but I see a lot of crusaders as being narcissistic. (I have a cousin who works in TV who is practically a socialist, doesn't stop him from demanding a salary that pushes the limits of 6 figures towards the next level) The Jupiter in 12 in cancer suggests to me this man makes good money at something that is large institution oriented, Trine(a bit over 3 degrees) Sun, so they work together.

Venus ruler of 4 and 11 on the MC
hopes adn desires are aligned with his social desires? Friends are helpful to his success,
for 4th house, father? that confuses me a bit I'll think further on it, but moon in 10th in taurus feels like a wonderful place for his moon to be, gives impression of emotional solidity. someone you can depend on?
(somehow I think this is a man who is comfortable in a subdued suit? the fathers knows best appearance?)

14 ARies Alpheratz -
With Venus: Neat and tidy appearance, quiet life, good health, fond of pleasure and society, fortunate for speculation. (Robson).
General influence of the star: According to Ptolemy it is of the nature of Jupiter and Venus, and to these Alvidas adds Mars also. It gives independence, freedom, love, riches, honor and a keen intellect. (Robson).
Harmonious nature which makes for popularity. If it is in affinity to propitious stellar bodies and with the personal points MC, Asc, Sun, Moon, one can count on becoming well known in public and popularity with the masses. If connected to the Sun, the native can easily become unpopular and can be toppled over. Also if transiting Saturn passes over the fixed star in conjunction with another stellar body (planet) a weakening of popular appeal is indicated. In this way E. Ebertin noted that, in many cases, directors and administrators, who had in their cosmogram. Sun in conjunction with this star, lost their posts, when in 1938 and 1939 transiting Saturn passed over this conjunction. (Ebertin).

there is something about the Venus Aries and FAther that perturbs me but I can't put my finger on it.

Mercury in 8? talks about death? odd thought but its there. Saturn is also in Gemini, but I think 6 degrees is a bit far out to be a true part of the Very solid grand trine. denotes to me a very strong sense of being practical in persuit of hopes and dreams, of being organized and methodical in persuit of end goal. reminds me a bit of a strategist, but not necessarily military strategy, just someone who is logical and oriented to move in a logical forward motion to their goals... reminds me of virgo rising almost... ?

I dont know if you noticed but the PoF is ON the 3rd hosue cusp, his fortune comes from communications, okay now I really think this is someone who makes their money through WORDS, either written or spoken, the Leo makes me think Spoken.

Saturn is aligned wit Hyadem II, a star in the face of Taurus, from Ann Wrights page
With Saturn: Caution, forethought, omnivorous reader, scientific, success but little prominence, worry and annoyance from relatives. (Robson).

another interesting note, from Ann Wrights page 0 Aquarius

General influence of the star: It gives a handsome appearance, neatness, a lovable disposition and beneficence in despair. (Robson).

I get the overall impression of someone who is a formal speaker of some kind, (possibly jurist, but I dont think so) someone who is center stage, speaks of serious things and give an appearance of being solid and dependable. That Taurus moon makes me think he has a formal demeanor, but give impression of 'father knows best' ... (father knows best was a TV show in the 50's in case anone is wondering, which featured a family with about the most impossibly perfect parents one could imagine. I think of it as the ultimate nostalgic dream of a past family life. I assure you its hollywood, not reality!) But I think this man, gives that kind of impression.

possibly a ... not dan rather but more Walter Cronkite type perosnality, or even a bit like senator John Edwards, comfy in a suit, but you can see him carving the christmas turkey... kind of person. Possibly a newsman because that mercury in 8 seems like something that would denote that, or politician, the Mars on 7th square Venus gives a kind of political bent to the personality.

I think this person is Extremely well read, that 9th house sun in Pisces just screams creative and intelligent and constantly learning...

Okay I'll go research some more, granny...
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tony,

Your response is fascinating (and as usual contains first rate astrology) because your interpretations make sense, but they don't fit the native, yet you aren't wrong! OK some of the particulars are off, but the overriding sense of what this person is and what he does is in your observations, but manifested a whole lot differently. I'm thinking in particular of your performing arts observation. It's sort of true. I can't say more without giving it away.

For the record I identified strongy with Scofield's observation. I have Leo rising and I am the oldest of three brothers (no sisters). But my "baby" brother who is 48 years old, has Leo rising as well as his son, an only child. Now my brother was nearly 11 yeas younger than I am and nearly ten years younger than the "middle" child, so he was raised as an only child. So Scofield's observation holds. Our native is the second born, but again you're right. Don't try to figure this last out. I'm only confusing the issue, but my intentions are good.

Nice job.

Tom


Last edited by Tom on Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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TonyLouis



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 79

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom,

Thanks for the feedback. I neglected to mention the importance of Sun in the 9th, which Granny picked up on. Sun is ASC-ruler and is exaltation, triplicity and face ruler of the 10th. Jupiter receives the Sun. Jupiter is exalted in Cancer, and the exalted Moon in the 10th receives the 12th house Jupiter in Cancer. All of this to say that Jupiter and the 9th are also closely tied to the profession. I still think this is a public figure. The 9th/Jupiter connection suggests someone connected with academics, philosophy, religion, spirituality, foreign affairs, or the law. Modern astrologers connect the 9th with broadcasting. I think Granny was going in this direction.

Judging from the primary directions of the ASC and MC (Ptolemy's key of 1 degree per year), the following were probably important in his career and may have brought him into the limelight:

Moon to MC in Jan 1961
ASC to Jupiter in Feb 1962
Sun to MC in Aug 1967 (converse direction)
Sun to Venus in Jan 1968 (converse)
MC to Sun in April 1970

In his early life Pluto came to the ASC by primary direction at the end of 1944 and Mars opposed Pluto in 1945. I would guess this corresponded to some significant childhood illness or accident when he was between 1 and 2 years of age.

He was probably in the limelight when primary directed Sun conjoined Mars in Nov 2004, since Sun rules the MC by exaltation and Mars rules the MC by sign. And again when the Moon (exalted in Taurus in the 10th) conjoined natal Jupiter by converse primary in May 2005.
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horarcek



Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 148
Location: Slovenia

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="granny_skot"]what program are you using that you can type in lat and long instead of a place name? cause looking this up before going into Astrodienst to look at the chart is highly irritating. thanks, Granny[/quote]

I`m very satisfied with Allen Edwall`s program Astrowin.
It is free on:
http://www.astrowin.org/astro_sw.htm

Best wishes
Trojan
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Moon to MC in Jan 1961
ASC to Jupiter in Feb 1962
Sun to MC in Aug 1967 (converse direction)
Sun to Venus in Jan 1968 (converse)
MC to Sun in April 1970


Go a bit beyond 1970 and see what you find. I ran some directions and found correlations (but I know what to look for), but I didn't use 1 degree for a year. The most accurate primaries for this chart seem to be Placidan mundo directions using a key popularized by Placidus, although not invented by him. Nonetheless it is still called the key of Placidus. Kolev says it is the most complex calculation of all the keys. Here is his example:

Quote:
Let the DA (diurnal arc) of a particular direction be 10 degrees. Let the right ascension of the Sun in the native's chart be 123.56 degrees. We add the DA or 10 degrees to the RA of the Sun (123.56 degrees)and obtain 133.56 degrees. Now we must check how many days after the birth the RA of the Sun will be 133.56 degrees. Suppose they are 10 days and 12 hours. This will equate the DA to 10 years and six months.


Got it? I use the program.

I think it is fair to grant a large fudge factor when citing primaries as our method of prediction, because there are so many methods. They all seem to hover around a particular time period though.

This is where John Worsdale steps in. In his work, he listed all the directions, to angles, interplanetary aspects (major and minor), and conjunctions, parallels etc and arranged them in chronological order. One could easily see (easily see; not easily calculate) periods where directions piled up at a particular time. The really enterprising amongst us could then compare these time periods with progressions, transits solar returns etc and combine them. Hey we've got nothing else to do.

Tom
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Cenned



Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
Location: New York

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:47 am    Post subject: Mystery Chart #3 Reply with quote

Mystery Chart #3
With Mars opposing Pluto across the horizon, Fagan tells us, that “he is a strong disciplinarian, who is dreaded for his inexorable stillness.” He is highly ambitious, perhaps a military man with the angular Mars ruling the MC.
These two, Mars and Pluto, in a fixed T-square to the elevated Moon will have brought him into the public eye and made him well known.
Mars rules both the MC and the 5th house: a profession that combines war with sport—perhaps boxing or wrestling.
Saturn with Uranus: he is someone who does not bend to outside pressure. He will have little use for what he considers to be trivial. This pairing in Gemini and Saturn’s mutual reception with Mercury (and the grand trine with Mars and Neptune) makes for brilliance, but he has an inflexible mind, and is someone who opposes any form of sentimentality. There is much dissatisfaction here. I take this Saturn-Uranus pairing to provide him with the ability to train himself so that he can achieve the mastery that his Mars-Pluto demands.
His health is important to him, more so than to most of us (Mars and Neptune as part of the Grand Trine, Jupiter the 6th ruler and dispositor of the Sun retrograde in the 12th house).
Venus is at the MC but in her detriment and squaring Jupiter: his manners are too abrupt to be considered polite and he dislikes following the party line (mars disposes Venus, is angular and opposed by Pluto).
With Pluto rising he is rather anti-social.
At a guess I'd say this is someone like Rocky Marciano.
Cheers
Cenned
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TonyLouis



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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
some of the particulars are off, but the overriding sense of what this person is and what he does is in your observations, but manifested a whole lot differently.


Tom,

I recall reading (but I don't remember the author) an astrologer who talked about the Heisenberg principal of astrology. He argued that there is a limit to how precise we can be in our delineations. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle in physics says that the more accurately we measure position, the less we know about the momentum of an elementary particle. In astrology we can be very accurate in our archetypal delineations but the harder we try to be specific, the less accurate we are likely to be -- unless we are gifted with a fair amount of psychic intuition. One of the problems is that there are very few astrological symbols and each one carries perhaps hundreds of significations. In hindsight we can usually see the specifics but in advance it is often difficult.

Tony
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I recall reading (but I don't remember the author) an astrologer who talked about the Heisenberg principal of astrology. He argued that there is a limit to how precise we can be in our delineations.


Hi Tony,

I couldn't agree more, and many of the suggestions of career on this thread are going to make that point despite the wide ranging possibilities. So far we have military man, boxer, and performing artist to name three, and they fit although none are exactly correct. The nature of those things or perhaps the essence of those things fit the native, as does his actual profession. To be honest I am seriously eager to talk about this chart for a lot of reasons in addtion to the career.

There is one major personal theme that I haven't seen mentioned, and to be honest I'm not so sure I'd know where to look to find it myself. Yet that theme led to his success and (hint) his downfall.

Rocky Marciano was born on Sept 1, 1923. I'd prefer that people didn't post names since sooner or later someone is going to get it right and spoil it for others. Accuracy is great, but identification is not polite. Thanks

Tom
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With Christmas fast approaching and he fact that we have two charts up, I'm thinking of revealing the name tonight in the hopes that we can spend some time discussing it in depth with knowledge. I have this feeling the chart will generate more than a few posts once we know who he is This way we'll have time to get involved with Chart 4 before Christmas.

I will not be available for the week after Christmas. I'm going to visit my son in Germany and will not be near a computer very often, if at all for a week. I'd like to have both names up and discussed a bit before I leave.

Tom
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