No murderer this time and al the planets aren't in the same house.

Male
Jan 31, 1919
6:30 PM CST
Cairo, Ga
84 W 13
30 N 52

ASC 28 Leo 35
MC 25 Taurus 47


Tom

Hi Tom,

Let me thank you first for your outstanding moderation of these mystery charts. It is really inspiring, and so are the contributions of the forum members. Thank you all.

What strikes me with this chart is the strong position of Saturn rising together with the fixed star Regulus. The appearance of this man should be of seriousness, reliability - even dignity - with real leadership qualities.
At the Descendant, Mars, Venus and Uranus make him unyielding, yet charming. The fixed star Fomalhaut just setting in the West gives him idealism and charisma.

Jupiter and Pluto as the most elevated planets let him strive for public recognition and influence. This is enhanced by a parallel aspect of Pluto and the Meridian. This conjunction is triggered by the Primary Direction of the MC in the years 1961-1963 when public recognition should/could materialise. (Key: Ptolemy)

The Jupiter/Pluto conjunction receives a Trine from Mars. I have often observed Mars/Pluto with men of great physical strength, who often need an outlet by doing a lot of sports, and the ability to work very hard and focused, and Jupiter should make it even easier to be successful.

What might be difficult in this chart is the Sun/Moon conjunction afflicted by Neptune. It contradicts the previous paragraph and I don?t like it. Maybe problems with body fluids? ? Neptune together with Saturn are in the 12th house, i.e. in a strong Gauquelin sector, which is not good for health. This constellation was triggered by Primary MC 1995-1999.

Another difficult aspect is the opposition of Saturn and Uranus afflicting both angles of the chart, and Venus, too. It seems to me that this man suffers from permanent inner tension. I had transiting Uranus opposite my natal leo Saturn 3 years ago; it wasn?t nice, and my heart frequency was disturbed. I hope this man doesn?t have that.

The icing on the cake, the paran aspects of planets to fixed stars, emphasize the leadership qualities and social engagement, and also the public recognition. There could be strong and potentially abrasive religious or philosophical world views raising opposition from others and so creating - or finding himself in - a sometimes hostile environment, but I?m sure he would face the challenge with Mars and Saturn at the AC/DC axis.


Thank you again for providing these Mystery Charts

Ren?

P.S. Blue text added later

Well, first temperament - according to the Greenbaum method its? mainly choleric. So this man is aspiring, inspired, strives high, active, efficient. 3D noted Regulus and Saturn on the Ascendant, I noted them too ? this man must be a leader type in one way or another. But this is a nocturnal chart, so possibly this man is working more for the common good than for highlighting his own ego and individuality (also Saturn on the Ascendant and the planets in Aquarius would point to that direction).

Almuten of the chart is Saturn, and at least for me the most striking figuration in this chart is the mutual reception of the Sun and Saturn. Though the Sun is still quite far from opposing Saturn, the Moon brings his light to him, so the Sun undoubtedly receives Saturn in his domicile. And because Saturn is retrogade, it returns Sun?s disposition and also his own disposition, so there?s a strong reception from Saturn to the Sun too. There?s a strange interplay between individual personality represented by the Sun and Leo and ?mass-consciousness?, represented by Saturn and Aquarius.

There?s still another figure, Saturn rules also the 6th house of diseases and the Ascendant ruler Sun approaches and receives him. Has this man been ill? But the 2nd house ruler Mercury is in the 6th house, in fact with Alcabitius it?s on the cusp of the 6th house, maybe this man could also have been worked as a doctor. But of course I'm bothered about the debilitated Saturn on the Ascendant - does the mutual reception with the Sun save them both, or are they like "two drunks helping each other"?

The 7th whole sign house has three planets in it and Venus is on Descendant ? marriage, companionships or other people in general must have played a big role in this man?s life, and because of Venus, I would say these companionship/conpanionships have been with a woman / several women. We have fixed signs here, so it?s more likely that there has been one significant relationship. But though the Sun and the Moon are in the 7th sign, they?re also cadent, I don?t know how that manifests. It signifies some sort of weakness.

The triplicity rulers of the Ascendant and the PoF are Jupiter, the Sun and Saturn ? again the role of The Sun and Saturn is emphasized. Jupiter is exalted in the 12th sign, but retrogade, could it be that the first part of this man?s life has been quite isolated, possibly coloured by religious / highly principled upbringing? Then this man has fulfilled the Sun/Saturn figure on the second and third part of his life and the last third has been the best (Saturn angular, conjoining the PoF). In fact the PoF is tightly opposing Venus (when using different formula for day and night charts), maybe the livelihood has come through a woman/women. Working as a doctor of women?s diseases, together with a partner, that?s the final quess.

The Sun and Moon are cadent, with Saturn and Mars angular, so the native was born in poverty or other similar oppressive circumstances, with his parents being 'slaves' and similarly oppressed. Since his birth was in the South at the beginning of the 20th century, he was probably poor white or black; with Saturn on the Asc, I'd go with black.

Venus, Mars, and Saturn, being the most angular, would provide the profession. Mars means physical hands on work, Venus craft and aesthetical work; Venus being disposited by Saturn, in the first, would re-emphasize works of the body. So he was probably an athlete of some kind.

I always feel like I?m wasting an opportunity if I skip these things, so here I go...


I find health problems, bodily injury, or permanent physical handicaps. I?m using Placidus here.

1. It?s a nocturnal chart so I?ll start with the Moon as an important chart factor for the native. It?s peregrine, combust and deep in the Sun?s furnace in the 6th house, so it?s probably having trouble doing its lunar thing. The Moon is associated with the body, so this may be one indication of bad health.

2. The Sun, serving as ASC ruler and therefore closely linked to health and vitality, is in detriment and also placed in the 6th. Another possible indication of health problems. The dispositor of both lights is Saturn. Saturn is powerfully placed on the Ascendant, but being in detriment, retrograde and above the horizon (that is, out of sect with the Sun below the horizon), I can see this Saturn as more of a troublemaker than helper. I?ve read that the ancients looked closely at sect placement of the malefics and thought that for best behavior Saturn should be placed together with the Sun above or below the horizon, and Mars should be placed oppositely from the Sun.

3. The Part of Fortune is another indicator of the body and health. It?s always found at the ASC around the time of the new Moon, but once again the debilitated Saturn gains importance in this chart due to the conjunction with the PoF along with the ASC. The lord of the PoF is the Sun (which is in detriment, below the horizon and in the cadent 6th .)

4. Uranus opposing the Ascendant, Saturn and PoF also looks like potential physical disability, possibly through an accident. But with Saturn ruling the DESC and Uranus conjunct the same, the problems might come from an assault by someone. If not an intentional assault, possibly the problems are due to the actions or carelessness of someone else.

The problematic Saturn-Uranus opposition is not only conjunct the ASC-DESC and PoF, but also squares the MC-IC axis, so it looks like the Saturn and Uranus influences are there at the beginning/early life and affects his future/career/action in the world. That also makes me think of life-long health problems or a physical handicap.

Mars has dignity by triplicity, is in hayz, and has strength to act in the 7th house ? seems like a pretty nice Mars. Mars in Pisces looks like the spiritual warrior type, or an otherwise inspirational figure. Is it him, or someone else who helps him (7th house)? It?s applying trine the 11th house Cancer Jupiter in exaltation. These are the two planets with the most dignity and are placed in strong houses (but maybe being retrograde and completely out of sect ? ex conditione ? is weakening Jupiter). It?s hard to ignore Pluto there with them: Compassionate, helpful and powerful friends? Mars rules the 4th of home, family, clan, and heritage. Jupiter rules the 5th house. If we consider the idea of the succedent houses indicating the resources of the previous angle, we can maybe somehow bring in the resources of the family, clan, and heritage by way of the 5th house. Using the Morin idea of planetary influence in the opposite house would be another way of making Jupiter active in the 5th .

Gotta stop... I?m getting too tired and confused ... I?m trying to somehow tie together the 4th, 5th, 7th, and 11th houses as areas of help and direction in his life. The 9th house of religion, spirituality and philosophy also looks important as being ruled by Mars.

I would say that receiving assistance from others has been very important in the life of the native.

Oh here I go again. Some more admittedly vague thoughts:

So the ASC is Fixed, Sun and Moon are Fixed, Venus as ruler of the MC is Fixed and Moon as almuten of MC is, once again, Fixed. With the huge Fixed influence the sense of movement and action seems to come mostly from the trine of Mutable Mars and Cardinal Jupiter. Sun and Moon in the 6th don?t have much ability to act. The Fixed influence may have given him tenacity and convictions, but the push to act and the major source of movement in the chart would seem to come from Jupiter and Mars and the houses they occupy and rule. So houses 4, 5, 7, 9 and 11 are looking pretty important. The 8th looks interesting due to Jupiter as lord and Mars as almuten (using Placidus). The relative softness of Mars in Pisces is an interesting contrast to the Fixed influence.

It?s also interesting how tightly conjoined the Sun and Moon are; but they seem to be off to the side of things in a house they can?t operate strongly in, and are separate from the other traditional bodies through lack of aspects to them. Their only aspect is a separating opposition to a 12th house Neptune ? not much drive there. They give the impression of being involved in their own private drama of the Sun burning up the Moon.

But I can?t give up on Whole-Sign houses...

Whole-Sign houses puts Mars in the 8th and makes the lights angular. The angular lights do add more energy and a sense of enmity, conflict or competition ? or at least the need to cooperate with or be influenced by another person. The Sun as ASC ruler is then put in the house of others with the ruler of others conjunct the ASC. By switching to a quadrant system you can see how the lights (and Sun as ASC ruler) become cadent and weaker, but Saturn as the significator of others is still strong and linked to the ASC. So it looks like he starts out as the weakling or underdog. I?m personally not finding strong indications that he was able to climb on top.

Hi Kirk,

The dispositor of both lights is Saturn. Saturn is powerfully placed on the Ascendant, but being in detriment, retrograde and above the horizon (that is, out of sect with the Sun below the horizon), I can see this Saturn as more of a troublemaker than helper. I?ve read that the ancients looked closely at sect placement of the malefics and thought that for best behavior Saturn should be placed together with the Sun above or below the horizon, and Mars should be placed oppositely from the Sun.

I'm going to have to check Rob Hand's book on sect, but I think that, although Saturn is out of sect, he is still a diurnal planet in a diurnal sign. and two out of three counts for something. Also, Saturn in the 12th or first is not badly placed. In the 12th he joys and in the first he has a strong affinity in that both Saturn signifies structure, and the ASC signifies the body.

Just a thought.

Tom

Hi everyone,

About hayz: A diurnal planet above the horizon in a masculine sign for a diurnal nativity is in hayz.

Saturn (diurnal) is above the horizon and in a masculine sign (Leo) for this figure but the native is not a diurnal birth. Therefore Saturn is not in hayz. It is not in halb either.

A planet is in halb if:

- it is a diurnal planet, and either above the earth by day or below it by night

- it is a nocturnal planet, and either above the earth by night or below it by day

Benjamin Dykes, in page 49 of his "Using Medieval Astrology Part I", states:

According to tradition, even if the sect of the chart is the same as the planet, the planet have more beneficial effects. For example, Saturn in a diurnal chart will tend to produce positive saturnian effects (discipline, order, hard but successful efforts), assuming he is unafflicted and in an appropriate place; but in a nocturnal chart he is supposed to be destructive and hindering.

...and he [Dykes] goes on to say in the same page:

Zoller warns that the whole halb-hayz matter is is questionable and unrewarding. But he does say that diurnal planets that are above the earth by day tend to have more public manifestations, and those planet in hayz are more refined, pervasive and beneficial.

As the native in question does not have a Saturn in good shape and considering also that:

- Saturn is in mutual reception with a cadent Sun,
- ruling the 6th house
- afflicting both the MC by a tight square and its ruler, Venus by opposition,

his profession and reputation must have been troubled somewhere in his life.

Cheers,

Sigma[/i]

Hi Tom & Sigma4,

For those of you who don?t have the book or who aren?t sure what we?re talking about, this is from pages 6-7 of Hand?s Night & Day:

Although no ancient writing ever states this explicitly, it would seem from these writings that the most important of these relationships is that a planet is of the same sect as the chart. ... That the condition of the chart is the most important of the three sect factors can be inferred from the fact that many of the Greek texts only mention the chart?s diurnal or nocturnal status in relation to the sect of the planet. Little is said about the agreement of the sect of the planet with that of the sign or placement.

In our mystery chart Saturn (a diurnal planet) is out of sect in a nocturnal chart.

Second in importance is that a planet is correctly placed above or below the horizon; diurnal planets are best above the horizon in the daytime or below it at night, while nocturnal planets are best above the horizon at night or below it by day. A planet whose sect is not in accord with the chart is more effective than it would otherwise be if it is correctly placed by hemisphere within the chart.

Saturn is placed above the horizon in a nocturnal chart ? out of sect again.

Last in significance, a planet is reinforced somewhat by being located in a sign whose sect agrees with its own.

Here Saturn in Leo is in sect agreement, but in the weakest case. Saturn isn?t in hayz, but is very weakly in sect.

... in some ways a planet out of sect seems to be merely inhibited in its expression, as if its power were lessened; but some planets, especially the malefics, seem to be made more malefic in quality, and not lessened in quantity of power at all.

So this chart?s Saturn in detriment conjunct the ASC gets an extra dose of nastiness. Saturn can be quite good in the Ascendant, but not in this case. The troubling part is that smooth and easy birth time. If the native were actually born 13 minutes earlier Saturn would be below the horizon, which would change the delineation somewhat.

This is a case where Whole-Sign houses makes things interesting. Whether above or below the horizon Saturn in Leo would remain in the Ascendant as long as Leo is rising. That gives more Ascendant description without having to switch between the 1st and 12th houses. The first-house Saturn in a degree earlier or later than the Ascendant degree would change the condition Saturn.

Zoller warns that the whole halb-hayz matter is is questionable and unrewarding.

I find myself agreeing with Zoller on this. While there are references to the technique in many of the older texts, outside of Hand's book, I can't recall seeing other than passing mention made of this condition in any delineation where it is mentioned at all. At best Hayz would be an accidental dignity, and I don't see it as much of one. I've never seen anyone say anything like: "Well Saturn is in Hayz which overcomes the debility of being in the 8th house."

Hand does have some fascinating delineations in his little book Night and Day, but that is the only place I've ever seen the subject given much attention.

Tom

Hello Traditional Astrologers,

this debate about the strength of Saturn reveals for me the fundamental difficulty with the many approaches in determining the strength of a planet.
There can be quite contradicting results. In this mystery chart 7, we have - according to Solar Fire:

? Mars in Hayz
? Jupiter ex Conditio
? Almuten Ibn Ezra: Saturn #1 with 43 points, #2 Jupiter 23 points (and ex conditio), Mars second last and in Hayz!
? Essential dignities (Ptolemy) Jupiter #1 with 6 points (it is ex conditio!)
? Essential dignities (Dorothean/Egyptian) Jupiter #1 with 4 points (ex conditio)


Even after trying it out again and again, I?m still confused with this method. So confused that I gave it up.
Can somebody help me clear the fog?

Cheers
Ren?

Hi 3D,

You have to mix it all together.

Here?s the beginning of the paragraph on page 6 that I took the last Rob Hand quote from:

If a planet?s sect is not in accord with any one of these three factors, the planet is to that degree out of sect and is to that extent altered in its expression in the chart. The manner of the alteration as we have inferred it from the ancient writings seems to be a mixture of quantity and quality, that is, in some ways a planet out of sect seems to be merely inhibited in its expression, as if its power were lessened; ...

Concerning Jupiter with the highest essential dignity score (Dorothean/Egyptian) but ex conditione, (or extra conditione as Hand has it on page 7): Jupiter is strongly benefic in exaltation and well able to act beneficially in the 11th house. But being out of sect as a diurnal planet in a nocturnal cart; being nocturnally placed (not in the same hemisphere as the Sun); and also being situated in a nocturnal sign takes away a fair amount of its power and ability to perform its benefic acts ? maybe more in this chart than I had initially realized. According to Hand, it?s the first two that really count ? chart and placement.

So it?s not a matter of either/or, but of how much. Overall, it looks like we have a moderately benefic Jupiter in this chart. Likewise, the more helpful qualities of Mars are brought out and given a better chance to be put to use.

The fact that Jupiter is exalted in a nocturnal sign shows the limits of the 3rd factor in sect determination. That may be one reason why it?s questionable to put too much into in hayz.