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Mercury retrograde calls Bush bluff?
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CJ



Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 38

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"Andrew J. Bevan"]Well, I can't see any point in getting into an argument over this. I'm all open for new discoveries. It you can give substance to your theories and put it to some good practical use, I wish you good luck with your research.


Well I believe I have enough substance to justify the charts on my web page. It occured to me the reason the people of a country usually get their birthday wrong may be because they have no emotional association whatsoever with the moment as they came into existence then. However they can relate emotionally to subsequent resolutions, declarations etc.
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Christina



Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 82
Location: usa

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For clarification’s sake, the rulerships proposed by CJ are primarily from Alice Bailey’s esoteric astrology.

Admittedly, I am not a fan of Bailey’s. I could never reconcile her racism and ethnic cleansing recipes with assumed spirituality.

Christina
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CJ



Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 38

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This appears to be an attempt to discredit an astrological method by some distorted inference. I state quite clearly my sources on my web page. Also I don't recognize any such "recipes". Here are some quotes about the subject matter (written in the 40s-50s):
" they are ready to tell other nations how to handle their problems but as yet evidence no ability to handle their own, as witness the treatment of the American Negroes and the withholding of equal freedom and opportunity from them."
"In the United States there is isolation, the persecution of such minorities as the Negro race and an ignorant and arrogant nationalism, voiced by some Senators and Representatives with their racial hatreds, their separate attitudes and their unsound political methods".
"The innate endowment of the Negro is very rich in content. He is creative, artistic and capable of the highest mental development when taught and trained - as capable as is the white man; this has been proved again and again by the artists and the scientists who have come out of the Negro race and by the fact of their aspirations and their ambitions."
"The responsibility of the non-Jews, in the light of humanitarian demand, is vital; the record of the persecution of the Jews is a grievous and ghastly story, only paralleled by the Jewish treatment of their enemies, as related in The Old Testament. The fate of the Jews in the world war is a terrible tale of cruelty, torture and wholesale murder and the treatment of the Jews down the ages is one of the blackest chapters in human history. For it there is no excuse or condonation, and right thinking people everywhere are aware of this and are eagerly demanding that these persecutions end."
"To sum up, the Jew has set up an ancient pattern of living within other nations; as a citizen with all the rights of citizenship, he has built up a wall of taboos, of habits and of religious observances which separate him off from his environment and make him non-assimilable. These must go, and he must become a citizen not only in name but in fact."
From a different but similar context "This general statement is often untrue where the individual Jew is concerned. There are Jews in every nation and locality who are deeply loved by all who know them whether Jew or Gentile, who are respected by all around them, who are sought after and valued."
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Christina



Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 82
Location: usa

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CJ,

The following words of Alice Bailey were posted by you – and yet you say she is not proposing ethnic cleansing. I suggest a re-read – and I suggest this in all sincerity. Bailey is clever in how she disguises it, plus her publishers of late have edited out much that is prejudicial or inflammatory (or would reduce book sales, imo) such that many readers are left uninformed. However, her more extreme quotes are in the earlier publications, which can be found by anyone in search of the truth. For now I will use your Bailey quote because there is no question of its validity (and I applaud your objectivity in including it):

Quote:
"To sum up, the Jew has set up an ancient pattern of living within other nations; as a citizen with all the rights of citizenship, he has built up a wall of taboos, of habits and of religious observances which separate him off from his environment and make him non-assimilable. These must go, and he must become a citizen not only in name but in fact."


Bailey tells us that Jewish “religious observances” “must go”, their cultural customs and habits “must go”. She is telling them to drop all things Jewish and assimilate with the people around them. Who are these people around them? The large majority are Christian. Basically she is telling Jews to erase all things Jewish.

This is a recipe for ethnic cleansing – and one of her milder quotes. Dozens more exist which are increasingly severe whereby she insists Jews must intermarry until all trace of Jewish-ness is gone (erase themselves from the planet, breed them out). AND she says peace on earth can only be achieved if Jews follow her advice.

Yes, Bailey claims to be against using physical violence in the form of outright slaughter. Instead, she advises physical and cultural elimination but by a more peaceful method. Peaceful indeed! To my mind it is violent and corrupt in thought. I consider her references linking ‘sameness as assimilation’ to good citizenship to be subversive and devoid of humanity.

IMO, peace is achieved through tolerance of differences, as is good citizenship. Tolerance perpetuates freedom and real freedom requires strength and courage. In the extreme it means having an opinion or belief that you are willing to die defending and the strength to restrain oneself from bashing your best friend or neighbor for having an opposing view (or from breeding them out). Peace is easy when everyone agrees or is the same.

Some other quotes from Bailey where she describes Jews as alien (non-human) and justifies the holocaust as well deserved karma: “The Jews are the reincarnation of spiritual failures or residues from another planet... The Jew represents materialism, cruelty and a spiritual conservatism, under the domination of the separative, selfish mind…” From 1949: “ Today the law of racial karma is working and the Jews are paying the price [for evil done in past lives], factually and symbolically ...” “Release from the present situation will come when the Jew forgets that he is a Jew.... The Jewish problem will be solved by intermarriage; that of the Negro will not. This will mean concession and compromise on the part of the orthodox Jews -- not the concession of expediency but the concession of conviction.” (Esoteric Healing, p. 267.)

All in all, I cannot reconcile Bailey’s esoteric astrology with my beliefs of tolerance and freedom. But then I am sure there are many who cannot reconcile astrology (of any sort) with their beliefs! As long as civil liberties are not violated, believers and non-believers can protest, boycott, shout opposing views at each other loudly from the rooftops, debate, educate – and I choose all these methods when opportunity arises. Bailey is referred to as the ‘mother of the new age’ and, sadly through no fault of their own, many of her followers are unaware of her small-minded bigotry.

Christina
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CJ



Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 38

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Yes, Bailey claims to be against using physical violence in the form of outright slaughter. Instead, she advises physical and cultural elimination but by a more peaceful method. Peaceful indeed! To my mind it is violent and corrupt in thought. I consider her references linking ?sameness as assimilation? to good citizenship to be subversive and devoid of humanity.


I disagree with this narrow view. The only context for this is the "Jewish problem" specifically (Jews are also mentioned as a whole fewer times than blacks), so I do not agree that there is some general "racism" or bigotry. As for the Jews they are special in that their religion states they are the Chosen People above all others and should stay apart. Suppose that is untrue? Their religion is also one of the few remaining purely tribal religions in the world. And reading the Old Testament it's easy to get the impression there is no afterlife, so "materialism" is not far-fetched either (there was in fact a Jewish sect the Sadducees propounding this about the time of Jesus). As I see it Bailey's gripe is with their religion, the motive may be to save them from their outdated beliefs. I myself believe in an objective truth, and that includes the possibility that some religions are more wrong than others. (Also I don't believe Bailey can be said to favor Christianity either, as you said yourself by some regarded as influencing New Age which hardline Christians are hostile to. I won't include all the quotes about Christianity now as this goes beyond this forum.)

Quote:

All in all, I cannot reconcile Bailey?s esoteric astrology with my beliefs of tolerance and freedom. But then I am sure there are many who cannot reconcile astrology (of any sort) with their beliefs! As long as civil liberties are not violated, believers and non-believers can protest, boycott, shout opposing views at each other loudly from the rooftops, debate, educate ? and I choose all these methods when opportunity arises.


Well you seem to treat astrology as a belief rather than a science. That suggests you have the 6th ray using Bailey's terminology prominent in your personality. I am able to search all the Bailey so I know probably more than you think about them. However than
I do not consider myself a Bailey believer or adherent, initially I was skeptic until it came to make sense. That doesn't mean I now accept everything at face value, that's why I have also rectified my charts as much as possible.
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Christina



Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 82
Location: usa

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well you seem to treat astrology as a belief rather than a science.


I did not specify either preference.

It is possible that I introduced some confusion by not defining my terminology. I will attempt to rectify. Tolerance does not mean agreement or disagreement, thus…

Quote:
As for the Jews they are special in that their religion states they are the Chosen People above all others and should stay apart. Suppose that is untrue?


…it does not matter if their religious beliefs are untrue or true. Tolerance allows all people freedom to think their own thoughts, express their thoughts and live those thoughts as they choose. Others are equally free to agree or disagree. All have freedom to exist.

Quote:
As I see it Bailey's gripe is with their religion, the motive may be to save them from their outdated beliefs.


Maybe so, she may think herself helpful. Yet history has proven that many an oppressor came disguised as savior/liberator. Disagreement is one thing, censorship is another. Suggesting a people breed themselves out is a denial of their freedom to exist. It censors them from existence and is intolerant and bigoted. My objection is to any astrology that seeks to justify the elimination of an entire people’s very existence simply because its author doesn't like those people’s thoughts, religious beliefs, customs, culture, habits and/or way of life.

Christina
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CJ



Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 38

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

?it does not matter if their religious beliefs are untrue or true. Tolerance allows all people freedom to think their own thoughts, express their thoughts and live those thoughts as they choose. Others are equally free to agree or disagree. All have freedom to exist.


I believe on the contrary that religion is also subject to astrology, particularly equinoctical precession. If we take the region of Greece for example, first there was at least on Crete and probably on the mainland a bull&snake cult with priestesses. Then came invaders with the Olympic gods (Zeus the All-Father probably Aries, but the stories of their amorous follies Libra). After that Christianity (Virgin Mary as Virgo prominent at least in the early and middle stages, as well as the saviour of Pisces. Pisces also monotheism generally, as Pluto for the first ray/Oneness is the esoteric ruler). The next world religion may perhaps include an astrological component (Aquarius) and perhaps recognition of the human soul as separate from the personality (Leo). Any religion that does not reform itself accordingly is marked for death (whether through coercion or otherwise). According to Bailey, the Jewish religion is "symbolically" stuck in Aries, other Aries tribal-oriented religions that have been absorbed are the Nordic Asatru and the Persian Zoroastrism (the Far East belongs culturally to an earlier era and may not be following the cycles of this one to the same extent, although in China there was Emperor-worship while Christianity is now popular). Violent change may have been necessary because religion has more often been about parents indoctrinating their children than free choice.

Quote:

My objection is to any astrology that seeks to justify the elimination of an entire people?s very existence simply because its author doesn't like those people?s thoughts, religious beliefs, customs, culture, habits and/or way of life.


Then you don't accept esoteric astrology because of your beliefs and I don't have a problem with that. I'm not out to convert someone, only discuss it scientifically.
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 4673
Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Mercury retrograde calls Bush bluff? Reply with quote

Quote:
Although I find the Iranian plans of Uranium enrichment highly disturbing, I am equally disturbed by the recent shaking of US swords and George Bush Jr. ordering a second US Aircraft Carrier to the Gulf-region, re. news of Feb 20. 2007. I cannot spot the astrological build-up in this region at present and Mercury retrograde in Pisces (water) makes me want to call his bluff. Or do we witness another erronous (?) decision by the Bush administration with the potential of plunging the President into new troubles?

Andrew J.Bevan

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Andrew



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 360

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"In the United States there is isolation, the persecution of such minorities as the Negro race and an ignorant and arrogant nationalism, voiced by some Senators and Representatives with their racial hatreds, their separate attitudes and their unsound political methods".


Recent scientific evidence demonstrates that the idea of race is a biological myth, as outdated as the widely held medieval belief that the sun revolved around the earth. Obscurantists will insist otherwise; good for them. Anthropologists, biologists and geneticists have increasingly found that, biologically speaking, there is no such thing as "race." Modern science is decoding the genetic puzzle of DNA and human variation - and finding that skin color really is only skin deep.

Allice Bailey did not advocate "science" in the modern (empirical) sense of the term. She made the same kind of inflated, unsubstantive absolutist statements that every other claimant to "privileged insight" (including astrology and astrologers) has ever made: this is so because I say it is so; this is science because I say it is science. The set of assumptions that enthusiasts talk among themselves about, but which constitute a belief system rather than a form of empirical knowledge.

Quote:
“The Jews are the reincarnation of spiritual failures or residues from another planet... The Jew represents materialism, cruelty and a spiritual conservatism, under the domination of the separative, selfish mind…” From 1949: “ Today the law of racial karma is working and the Jews are paying the price [for evil done in past lives], factually and symbolically ...” “Release from the present situation will come when the Jew forgets that he is a Jew.... The Jewish problem will be solved by intermarriage; that of the Negro will not. This will mean concession and compromise on the part of the orthodox Jews -- not the concession of expediency but the concession of conviction.” (Esoteric Healing, p. 267.)


Idiotic twaddle.
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CJ



Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 38

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Andrew"]
Quote:
"In the United States there is isolation, the persecution of such minorities as the Negro race and an ignorant and arrogant nationalism, voiced by some Senators and Representatives with their racial hatreds, their separate attitudes and their unsound political methods".

Recent scientific evidence demonstrates that the idea of race is a biological myth, as outdated as the widely held medieval belief that the sun revolved around the earth. Obscurantists will insist otherwise; good for them. Anthropologists, biologists and geneticists have increasingly found that, biologically speaking, there is no such thing as "race." Modern science is decoding the genetic puzzle of DNA and human variation - and finding that skin color really is only skin deep.


I don't see what this has to do with the subject. One can recognize racial hatred in others without acknowledging a racial difference (for that matter more recent studies make it more doubtful, such as this one http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2005/2/4/newStudyLinksRaceAndDnaMaterial). On the other hand if you call yourself an astrologer then by definition you are saying that a person is determined by others factors than genes or upbringing.

Quote:

Allice Bailey did not advocate "science" in the modern (empirical) sense of the term. She made the same kind of inflated, unsubstantive absolutist statements that every other claimant to "privileged insight" (including astrology and astrologers) has ever made: this is so because I say it is so; this is science because I say it is science.


As you said yourself there is no claim to science. However it can be approached and tested in a scientific manner. (I have also done statistical research on the astrology.) Empirical science is limited to what can be perceived with the senses, but there is no perceptible influence that can explain astrology for example so it is just ignored or ridiculed.

Quote:

The set of assumptions that enthusiasts talk among themselves about, but which constitute a belief system rather than a form of empirical knowledge..


Well it seems to me you reject it out of prejudice rather than research. The world view of modern can equally be described as a gigantic myth if one accepts that not all of reality can be perceived by human senses (which scientists themselves are now saying by claiming 95% of the universe is dark matter). Traditional astrology which you seem to believe in makes to my mind more incredible claims than what I have read in Bailey's books.
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Andrew



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 360

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't see what this has to do with the subject.


What this has to do with the subject is this: There is no Negro race or Caucasian race or Asian race or any other race other than the human race. All white, black, yellow, brown or red varieties thereof are closely related interbreeding subspecies, all descended from a common mother that lived somewhere in Central Africa some 100,000 years ago.

Bailey claimed to serve as the amanuensis for a so-called Master of Wisdom, who explicitly refers to Negroes and Jews as belonging to a "race." So much for wisdom. More like whiz-dumb.

A source who claims to serve as the amanuensis for the Master Kuthumi offers this:

"In the past we have had to withdraw our support from those who were given the opportunity to represent us. The one who for a time had the opportunity of representing the master Djwal Kul soon lost that authority through intellectual pride... of the lower mental body, which can never be the channel of the mind of God. Thus I expose to you the false teachings subtly woven into the work of Alice Bailey, whose failure to surrender totally rendered her unfit as an instrument of the Tibetan Master.

The way of the intellect is not the path of the Buddha or of the chohans of the rays. It should not be the path of their chelas. Now the masters of the Far East must seek to undo the harm that has been done to their chelas by the Lucis Trust organization, which claims our backing but has it not at all. Alice Bailey, due to her lack of surrender to the will of God, never passed the final initiations which would have qualified her as our amanuensis."


It's all twaddle, of course.

Quote:
On the other hand if you call yourself an astrologer then by definition you are saying that a person is determined by others factors than genes or upbringing.


Correlations between configurations do not necessarily indicate a causative relationship, nor do they necessarily posit a deterministic influence. They might suggest the presence of synchronistic phenomena, but they do not "cause" or "determine" anything.

Quote:
As you said yourself there is no claim to science. However it can be approached and tested in a scientific manner. (I have also done statistical research on the astrology.) Empirical science is limited to what can be perceived with the senses, but there is no perceptible influence that can explain astrology for example so it is just ignored or ridiculed.


To make an assertion is not to establish a fact. To borrow from Heinz Pagels:

"Although the word 'science' is much abused, it continues to imply an adherence to logic, the clear presentation of assumptions and deductions, and the experimental method. Most importantly, any science necessarily contains a recipe for its own falsification."

Astrologers who claim to conduct "research" with implications beyond the self-referential universe of astrological knowledge had best be prepared to submit the results of their "research" to the criteria and methodology of experimental science rather than taking refuge in the theoretical vaguaries of physics or philosophy. Otherwise the results of such conclusive "research" will remain as credible as their claims for its factual "truth." Besides which, if empirical science is "limited," it is then pointless to attempt to "test" astrology in a "scientific manner." Confirmation bias is not synonymous with clinical evidence or statistical significance.

Quote:
The world view of modern can equally be described as a gigantic myth if one accepts that not all of reality can be perceived by human senses (which scientists themselves are now saying by claiming 95% of the universe is dark matter). Traditional astrology which you seem to believe in makes to my mind more incredible claims than what I have read in Bailey's books.


Anything can be described as anything provided one has the wish to do so. Consistency is not necessarily synonymous with accuracy and truth, but the various "traditional astrologies" are at least internally consistent and symbolically developed. The same cannot be said for the torrential scribblings of Mrs. Alice A. Bailey. I am reminded of the words of Carl Jung who, in a letter written in November 1935, wrote:

"I have read a few books by Rudolf Steiner and must confess that I have found nothing in them that is of the slightest use to me. I am not interested at all in what can be speculated about experience without any proof ... I have also got to know very many anthroposophists and theosophists and have always discovered to my regret that these people imagine all sorts of things and assert all sorts of things for which they are quite incapable of offering any proof. I have no prejudices against the greatest marvels if someone gives me the necessary proofs. Nor shall I hesitate to stand up for the truth if I know it can be proved. But I shall guard against adding to the number of those who use unproven assertions to erect a world system no stone of which rests on the surface of this earth. So long as Steiner is or was not able to understand the Hittite inscriptions yet understood the language of Atlantis which nobody knows existed, there is no reason to get excited about anything that Herr Steiner has said."

The same words could apply to Blavatsky, Bailey, and a host of others.
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't see what this has to do with the subject.

Especially baffling in light of Andrew B’s quote above from the thread’s initial post. Here it is again:

Quote:
Although I find the Iranian plans of Uranium enrichment highly disturbing, I am equally disturbed by the recent shaking of US swords and George Bush Jr. ordering a second US Aircraft Carrier to the Gulf-region, re. news of Feb 20. 2007. I cannot spot the astrological build-up in this region at present and Mercury retrograde in Pisces (water) makes me want to call his bluff. Or do we witness another erronous (?) decision by the Bush administration with the potential of plunging the President into new troubles?

So odd; so mysterious. Why would Andrew B. have quoted himself? Confused
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL, why not kirk, Andrew is after all rather quotable.

And I'd have to agree with Andrew's statement that there is only the human race. now where were we? ah yes, the persian gulf perhaps?

Granny
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CJ



Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 38

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't see what this has to do with the subject.

What this has to do with the subject is this: There is no Negro race or Caucasian race or Asian race or any other race other than the human race. All white, black, yellow, brown or red varieties thereof are closely related interbreeding subspecies, all descended from a common mother that lived somewhere in Central Africa some 100,000 years ago.


That is your belief and not the scienctific position at the moment, so I don't care to comment.

Quote:

Bailey claimed to serve as the amanuensis for a so-called Master of Wisdom, who explicitly refers to Negroes and Jews as belonging to a "race."


What is meant with a race is something else than what you mean, since Negroes also belong to the "Aryan" race. (The Nazi interpretation of this is described as "materialistic").


Quote:
On the other hand if you call yourself an astrologer then by definition you are saying that a person is determined by others factors than genes or upbringing.

Correlations between configurations do not necessarily indicate a causative relationship, nor do they necessarily posit a deterministic influence. They might suggest the presence of synchronistic phenomena, but they do not "cause" or "determine" anything.


That is semantic juggling, there is some other influence than those mentioned inherently in astrology whether it "determines" or not.

[quote]
To make an assertion is not to establish a fact. To borrow from Heinz Pagels:
[/qote]

I have repeatedly my web page which you have not bothered to refute. So I conclude that you either accept the results or you are so hopelessly biased that you don't even bother. I suspect the latter, so I see no point in describing my results and methods.

Quote:
The world view of modern can equally be described as a gigantic myth if one accepts that not all of reality can be perceived by human senses (which scientists themselves are now saying by claiming 95% of the universe is dark matter). Traditional astrology which you seem to believe in makes to my mind more incredible claims than what I have read in Bailey's books.

Anything can be described as anything provided one has the wish to do so. Consistency is not necessarily synonymous with accuracy and truth, but the various "traditional astrologies" are at least internally consistent and symbolically developed. The same cannot be said for the torrential scribblings of Mrs. Alice A. Bailey.


I think on the contrary those writings are a lot more "internally consistent" than the range of opinions by traditional astrologers. You mentioned that there are set some set of assumptions, and I showed that science also has them (all reality can be perceived).
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Andrew



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 360

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have repeatedly my web page which you have not bothered to refute. So I conclude that you either accept the results or you are so hopelessly biased that you don't even bother. I suspect the latter, so I see no point in describing my results and methods.


"There is no force in this or any other universe as powerful as the human capacity for self delusion." - Frank Zappa
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