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Christian Astrology - in modern English?

 
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 569

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:31 am    Post subject: Christian Astrology - in modern English? Reply with quote

Does anyone know of a version of Lilly's book but without the hath and hath beens, i.e. in modern English????
Is it a direct translation?
Or is it just a book about Lilly's book (which is not what I am looking for).

Thanks.
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Christian Astrology was written in the vernacular, which in Lilly's case was English. It is the first astrology textbook ever written in English. Editing this book or "translating" it would probably result in a loss of much of its charm, if not accuracy.

Hath, etc is not the problem. Words change their meanings over time, and what Lilly meant may not mean the same thing in contemporary English. I find the long complicated sentences to be more difficult to follow than the arcane phrases, which I think add color.

Tough it out. The more you stick with it the easier it gets.

Tom
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graelhaven



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 82

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually I translated it, but I printed it and didn't save the translation in cyberspace.

Screw charm, when I'm trying to apply the information to a chart I dont need to be doing three translations at once. applying the rule to the chart, is enough. not translating lilly and then trying to figure out what t was I was trying to translate to begin with.

I understand EXACTLY what you mean Taurus7. MissB
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a pity that this book is so poorly known but the volume of Christian Astrology I produced was retyped and formatted, with all spellings corrected and redundant terms brought up to date. It is annotated throughout to explain any obscure words or new astrological terms, copious notes are included on Lilly's narrative and charts - which are presented in his original format as well as modern chart form, locations are identified against the modern world map, hebs and rulerships etc. brought up to date, and a very detailed rulership index is included. In terms of a modern production of Lilly this is as good as anyone is going to get without obliterating his text.
It's available in Amercia from the Astrology Center
http://www.astroamerica.com/lilly.html

PS - I'm not on commission and I don't get any royalties, but I would recommend this book as a worthwhile investment. It's 100% easier to study from than anything you'll download off the internet. Even so, I still think nothing beats the facsimile copy of Lilly's original manuscript (except the original manuscript itself of course). When I first tried to study Lilly I couldn't make head or tail of it. Then I sat myself down, took my time, imagined him speaking his words to me and entered into the spirit of his world. You will learn from Lilly if you let him teach you, but you have to undertake that book as a serious course of study, not something that you can quickly flick through.
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 569

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Screw charm


Wooooo, Beth! Are you having a bad day?
Too bad you didn't save your translation...
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 569

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I would recommend this book as a worthwhile investment. It's 100% easier to study from than anything you'll download off the internet. Even so, I still think nothing beats the facsimile copy of Lilly's original manuscript


OK, so the book you annotated is Lilly's book but with notes and other useful stuff from you - and that's actually 2 books - right?

So what would be the reason to still recommend Lilly's original work? Not quite sure of the difference.

I know Tom mentioned "charm" and you say it's a very serious work and Beth said "screw the charm"....And ofcourse, I would be a very serious student regardless of whether I got your annotated version or his original...
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graelhaven



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 82

Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if its between the original and the one annotated by Deb, i say get the one annotated by deb, I think there are two editors on that one aren't there Deb? anyway, I have only glanced through that one once, when I went back to buy it someone else had picked it up. I believe you can get it from amazon.

As to the Screw Charm comment, nope not being bitchy, I mean what I said about sitting down and working on a chart, if I have to first try to figure out the language, then what the man meant and then apply it to the chart.... screw that, translate the work first so you arent trying to figure out twenty things at once. Leave Charm for Kinkaid Paintings and weekend getaways.

my 2 cents worth anyway.

Missb
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Deb
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Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I produced Volumes I and II which are sold together as one book - but with help from generous colleagues such as David Plant, David McCann, Nick Campion, Graeme Tobyn, Dylan Warren Davis, Olicia Barclay, Maurice McCann and others. There was a lot of work that went into it. I didnít really work with Kim Farnell on Vol III but I think she acknowledged me anyway for some text I passed over.

For a beginner I think this is the best book, but I made the decision to give the original text the benefit of an editorís hand, by inserting missing full stops, updating the spelling of words and taking a more consistent approach to capitalisation, etc. Whilst this makes the book easier to read, it does of course leave it open to the criticism that the words are not presented exactly as they were originally published. So it may be a less desirable source for quotes where you want to illustrate something that Lilly said in an article of your own.

The other point, which Tom would agree with, is that although the original text appears difficult when you first approach it, it is surprising how quickly you settle into Lillyís style. The very presentation of the words in the original type somehow flavours the book with his essence. I find it hard to describe, but personally I turn to Lillyís original text when I am looking up a passage (maybe because Iím just very familiar with it and it tends to fall open in the right places) but I use my version a lot and itís a blessing for looking up references. The footnotes contain a great deal of information that I think is essential for bridging the centuries, especially if English is not the first language.
Anyway, this might all be a bit superfluous because unless Iím mistaken the facsimile copy is out of print and likely to remain that way.
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the synonyms for "charm" is "interesting." I think that means a kind of pleasant sort of interesting, and that's the way I see Christian Astrology.

The "original" facsimile is out of print, and although it was available when first published in a harbound deluxe edition for $90, that is now worth almost double that amount in the used book market. I have a facsimile of The Prophetical Merline and I find that charming as well, and I don't mean that to be in any way condescending.

The volume of CA that I use is a retype, but has none of the annotations Deb mentions her edition has. I've seen her edtion; I don't own it, but I wish I bought that one instead of the one I have.

I've seen original edtions of CA for sale on ebay and other places and $1500 to $2000 US is a common price. I wouldn't want to use that for every day either.

Interestingly there is a 1659 edition of CA that LIlly says is "updated" or some such description. I have a facsimile of that on CD, but I've yet to find time to do any comparison work with it to see what, if anything was changed.

Tom
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 569

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Prophetical Merline and I find that charming as well, and I don't mean that to be in any way condescending.

Who wrote that one?

Quote:
The volume of CA that I use is a retype, but has none of the annotations Deb mentions her edition has. I've seen her edtion; I don't own it, but I wish I bought that one instead of the one I have

OK, so the consensus seems to be Deb's annotated version.

But does anyone have any comments on:
"A modern Lilly" by Carol Wiggers?

Thanks.
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Prophetical Merline and I find that charming as well, and I don't mean that to be in any way condescending.


Quote:
Who wrote that one?


William Lilly in 1642. It is mostly mundane astrology, I believe. I haven't done much with it yet.

Quote:
But does anyone have any comments on:
"A modern Lilly" by Carol Wiggers?


Carol Wiggers retyped my edition of CA. No problem there. I don't know anything about "A Modern Lilly." I do know that ordering from JustUs & Associates is a pain. It takes forever to get anything from her. You'll get it eventually, but not after having to hound her a bit. This may have changed over the last year or so, but prior to that it was difficult. This is too bad since JustUs has many fine books.


Tom
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MaryAKe
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Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought the Lilly Facsimile from Justus back in 1998 together with many other books. I always found Carole Wiggers and her team very responsive, quick and helpful. Often I got books much quicker and sometimes cheaper, even with the overseas postage than from a UK source. I spent some time away in Spain and on return to UK found that Carole Wiggers seems to have 'gone missing' and I understand she may be unwell.

I don't study as much as I would like but once I got used to Lilly I do find him very useful. However I must heap loads of praise towards Deb and her 'translated' copy which I have purchased. I still like to use the original facsimile copy but the modern text makes life so much easier.

Thank you Deb
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 569

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ordered Deb's annotated version of Christian Astrology from the source she indicated, about a month ago:
http://www.astroamerica.com/lilly.html
Due to some confusion, it appears they won't be able to ship it to me for about 3 months.
Does anyone know of some other place I can place my order online for this particular book? I livei n NJ.
Thanks,
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try Midheaven Bookshop http://www.midheavenbooks.com
They are based in London so there will be some international postage, but they usually carry stocks and offer a very efficient and reliable service.
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