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1922 committee?

 
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CJ



Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 38

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:45 pm    Post subject: 1922 committee? Reply with quote

Might someone know when that committee was formed, I have only found April 1923 (it seems like a possible chart for the UK Conservative Party).
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the 1922 Committee was really just the body to represent Conservative party backbenchers rather than the leadership of the party? I assume you aren't satisfied with the 1867 chart?
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CJ



Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 38

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="MarkC"]I thought the 1922 Committee was really just the body to represent Conservative party backbenchers rather than the leadership of the party? I assume you aren't satisfied with the 1867 chart?[/quote]

That's certainly a candidate too if you are referring to the establishment of the central union (I don't have a date for that either). On the other hand I have read that in the early 20th century there were turf wars, little central organization and local organizations were more like local parties. What I'm looking for is when it became a unified centralized organization. The 1922 committee appears to have a central role in the party as it stands today.
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That's certainly a candidate too if you are referring to the establishment of the central union (I don't have a date for that either).


In his book, 'The Book of World Horoscopes', Nicholas Campion dates this chart as 12th November 1867 referencing Charles Carter.

The timing is somewhat confusing as he states the chart given is '' the Charles Carter horoscope for 10.00am. 12 November 1867, Westminster.'' However the chart displayed on the following page is actually for 12.00noon LMT. I assume the former reference is an error as there is no exact timing for the chart so a flat solar chart for noon would seem appropriate.

Campion states:

Quote:
A further crucial event occured in January-February 1846 when the party split and a new grouping coalesced around Benjamin Disraeli, who is today regarded as the father of the modern party. Unfortunately, it has not been possible to establish the date for a meeting in February at which the new group met, and could reasonably be regarded as the birth time for the party. The chart given here is set for the date for a major reorganisation of the party under Disraeli's control. On 12 November 1867 a meeting of delegates of local Conservative and Constitutional Associations took place in Freemasons Hall in London at which the name National Union of Conservative and Constitutional Associations was adopted. However, this meeting represented more than just a change of name, for the events brought into being the modern mass party, a response to the recent extension of the franchise in the second Reform Act. This chart was used by Charles Carter, who considered that it was not a nativity for the party. It remains, however, the closest to a 'nativity' we have at present, and should be used as such. Unfortunately, it has been reported that the minutes of the 1867 meeting do not indicate the times at which votes were taken, although this has not been verified, and contemporary reports do not give times for the meeting.

(Source The Book of World Horoscopes-Nicholas Campion p408)

I'm still not clear why you feel the creation of the 1922 Committee is significant enough to be regarded as equivalent to a new inception date for the whole party.

It describes itself in the following terms:

Quote:
This committee was "formed [in 1923] of Conservative Private Members who where elected for the first time in 1922, for the purpose of mutual co-operation and assistance in dealing political and parliamentary questions and in order to enable new Members to take a more active interest and part in parliamentary life..." (CPA, 1922/1).

Today every Conservative back-bench MP is a member of the committee. It provides a sounding board of Conservative opinion in the House of Commons, and allows MPs to put forward ideas, views and concerns through a process of dialogue, rather than through confrontation with the leadership. As such, it has been involved in all the major issues of the twentieth century.


The creation of the 1922 Committee didn't go on to lead to a new party constitution as far as I know. In essence the chairman operates as a backbenchers 'shop steward' in giving the leadership feedback on the views of backbenchers. Although the Committee has had a role in leadership elections in organising votes of MP's. If you are keen to follow this up the Conservative party archives for the Committee are still preserved: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/modern/cpa/1922/1922.html#1922.A.

The Conservative Associations have retained a strongly autonomous function for most of the 20th century. Indeed it was only in the last few years that the party decided to find out how many members they had! The attempt to bring Conservative Associations under more central party control is something the leadership has only really tried to tackle in the last few years.

If you are looking for a crucial date after 1867 I would suggest 1912 is more significant. This was the year that the party merged with the Liberal Unionist Party to become known by its modern title: The Conservative and Unionist Party. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to track a date for this down yet.
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CJ



Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 38

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In his book, 'The Book of World Horoscopes', Nicholas Campion dates this chart as 12th November 1867 referencing Charles Carter.

The timing is somewhat confusing as he states the chart given is '' the Charles Carter horoscope for 10.00am. 12 November 1867, Westminster.'' However the chart displayed on the following page is actually for 12.00noon LMT. I assume the former reference is an error as there is no exact timing for the chart so a flat solar chart for noon would seem appropriate.


Thanks I'll have to test that chart then. (Timing is not a problem for me, it has to have Gemini rising.)

Quote:
I'm still not clear why you feel the creation of the 1922 Committee is significant enough to be regarded as equivalent to a new inception date for the whole party.


As I see it the Tories evolved from a loose parliamentary group into a party organization over a long period (prompted maybe by the organization of their opponents). That could the moment they ceased to be the parliamentary group and became the regular party (also as the "National Union" seems irrelevant today, but "Central Office" of course exists although I haven't seen it being very central anymore so they could have been intermediary stages.

Quote:
The creation of the 1922 Committee didn't go on to lead to a new party constitution as far as I know. In essence the chairman operates as a backbenchers 'shop steward' in giving the leadership feedback on the views of backbenchers. Although the Committee has had a role in leadership elections in organising votes of MP's.


Yes I'm a little unclear on how the party functioned formally before that (if at all), like whether a party leader was formally elected by some body or chosen by some parliamentary consensus (or maybe the whim of the monarch).

Quote:
If you are keen to follow this up the Conservative party archives for the Committee are still preserved: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/modern/cpa/1922/1922.html#1922.A.


That would probably have what I looked for but you need some written permission.

Quote:
If you are looking for a crucial date after 1867 I would suggest 1912 is more significant. This was the year that the party merged with the Liberal Unionist Party to become known by its modern title: The Conservative and Unionist Party. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to track a date for this down yet.


My impression of that is that it was a gradual absorption of the latter parliamentary grouping. (I would only care for a more "formal" merger of party organizations).
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As I see it the Tories evolved from a loose parliamentary group into a party organization over a long period (prompted maybe by the organization of their opponents).


That is undoubtably true. If you are referring to 'Tories' as opposed to the Conservative Party the term first appears in the 17th century to describe the supporters of the King. The term 'Conservative' started to be used in the early 19th century following the split among the 'Tories' over the Catholic Emancipation Act.

Quote:
That could the moment they ceased to be the parliamentary group and became the regular party (also as the "National Union" seems irrelevant today, but "Central Office" of course exists although I haven't seen it being very central anymore so they could have been intermediary stages.


The development of the modern party has several stages.

1 The presence of a distinct Conservative paliamentary grouping in parliament. Especially in response to 1832 Reform Act.

2 The formation of a Central Union bringing together conservative associations across England ( 1867). Disraeli's 'One nation' conservativsm seeks mass appeal from voters with the second Reform Act extending the franchise. Wales and Scotland are a different story.

3 The creation of Central Office (1870). This operates as party HQ and formulates party policy.

4 Creation of the post of Conservative party Chairman (1911). Greater party co-ordination of election campaigns.

5 The merger of the Conservatives with the Liberal Unionists (1912). Modern party comes into existence?

6 Formation of the 1922 Committee (1923).

7 Scottish Unionists formally join Conservative party (1965)

Quote:
My impression of that is that it was a gradual absorption of the latter parliamentary grouping. (I would only care for a more "formal" merger of party organizations).


Actually it was a bit of both. The 1912 merger was really a de facto recognition that the liberals opposed to Irish Home rule were closer to the conservatives than other liberals. They had been co-operating with the Conservatives since the late 19th century and joining them in cabinets. However, the merger of the two parties was formalised during 1912. The fact the Conservative party changed its name seems to be a recognition that this political merger has significance and it does have a date. I just haven't found out what it is yet!

Assuming it wasn't part of the records lost during WWII bombing.
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CJ



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Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The development of the modern party has several stages.

1 The presence of a distinct Conservative paliamentary grouping in parliament. Especially in response to 1832 Reform Act.

2 The formation of a Central Union bringing together conservative associations across England ( 1867). Disraeli's 'One nation' conservativsm seeks mass appeal from voters with the second Reform Act extending the franchise. Wales and Scotland are a different story.

3 The creation of Central Office (1870). This operates as party HQ and formulates party policy.

4 Creation of the post of Conservative party Chairman (1911). Greater party co-ordination of election campaigns.

5 The merger of the Conservatives with the Liberal Unionists (1912). Modern party comes into existence?

6 Formation of the 1922 Committee (1923).


I went to a university library and found April 23 for when that started working (election of executive committee, chairman etc.). I also confirmed the Nov 12 1867 date. However only the latter worked for both the falls of Thatcher and Duncan-Smith so it seems to be my preference. Also Thatcher's policies (for good or bad) could be described by her Sco Saturn (capitalism) trine Pluto (forceful action), and they are still admired in the party today so a Scorpio chart could be possible. I will have to look for more key events with dates though (as the impression I got was that the Union was to some extent independent of the actual party. But on the other hand there was apparently at least a career progression from the former to the latter).

Quote:
Actually it was a bit of both. The 1912 merger was really a de facto recognition that the liberals opposed to Irish Home rule were closer to the conservatives than other liberals. They had been co-operating with the Conservatives since the late 19th century and joining them in cabinets. However, the merger of the two parties was formalised during 1912. The fact the Conservative party changed its name seems to be a recognition that this political merger has significance and it does have a date. I just haven't found out what it is yet!
.


Well you need to start with the oldest and thickest books (newer books tend to focus more on theories and generalizations than facts). However I don't think a name change in itself necessarily means anything, it could just be a device to placate the new members. That there was no change in the institutions of the party suggests an absorption rather than a merger.
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