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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:35 pm    Post subject: Virginia Tech Reply with quote

you know, I'm rather surprised no one has mentioned the horrible shooting at Virginia Tech this week, I mean it was huge and horrific, I would have thought someone might have mentioned it. wanted to look at electionals or something, it just struck me as odd that no one has mentioned it.

Granny
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking only for myself, I am no longer surprised when this kind of thing happens. It is becoming all too commonplace, sadly. Sad
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granny_skot



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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh I've never Been surprised such behavior, angry students have gone on killing rampages, since Plato was teaching, and probably before that. Whenever someone takes a philosophy into belief mode, there is the opportunity for insane rages, because people freak when you challenge their beliefs. Among other issues...

This is One of the reasons I have to agree with producer of the comedy Dogma, that it is wiser to have Ideas, than beliefs. Beliefs are generally dangerous to physical well being. Not to mention, people tend to have un necessary trauma when their beliefs turn out to be ill formed.

Yes I know I'm an odd duck.

but it still struck me as odd that no one mentioned it. sigh, well just to spark an ahhhh moment, one might note the trine of Sun to Pluto, with Sag rising for the incident in question. first 911 call at 7:13 am.

Granny
ps Also one of the deceased is the father of my best friends teacher, so perhaps I found it a little more of interest. if you get the chance to read up on Liviu Librescu, he was a very brave and interesting man, died barring the door so his students could escape through windows.
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had heard something about Prof Librescu. I am always very moved at selfless acts of heroism. It would be very interesting to do a comparative study of the natal charts for people who have been caught in these situations, and saved everyone but themselves.
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LeeLu



Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 41
Location: Toronto

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's actually a Taurus rising. But take a look at a biwheel with Virginia massacre inner wheel and Columbine outter wheel:



Columbine shooting Saturn right on the Virginia shooting Asc.
Columbine Mars trine Virginia Mars.
Columbine Asc right on the Virginia IC within 5' of arc.
Venuses conjunct.
Suns conjunct.
Columbine North Node conjunct Virginia Saturn.
etc...
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oops, thanks for the correction I must have put pm or something when i ran it? that is what happens when you hurry. sigh...

Yes wouldn't it be nice ot be able to run comparative charts on people like Librescue. I dont know if I can get the data for him or not, it seems kinda bad time to have Gavin ask his son for the info... maybe a little later when the hurt is not so new.

Interesting chart comparison indeed.

Granny
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 247

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granny,

Quote:
"because people freak when you challenge their beliefs."


People also freak when you challenge their ideas ... people can be just as fixed (& attached) to ideas (ideology) as they can be to beliefs.

Ideas, a line of reasoning, and/or lessons lead to beliefs.
Where belief is concerned maybe it's worthwhile considering the line of reasoning that led to that belief - even if that belief has been learnt by wrote.

Quote:
"it still struck me as odd that no one mentioned it."


It comes amid an escalation in violence.

And the less people listen, the louder the noise made becomes ... and the louder the noise becomes, the less people listen (many deliberately tune out). It's a cycle that feeds upon itself until such point the noise gets so loud I guess it simply cannot be ignored.

On 16th there was also a suicide bomber who killed 9 policemen and wounded 25 others in northern Afghanistan (250 kms north of Kabul).

Leading into this event (which was waning of Moon to New) was:

10 April: a battle errupted in Central Baghdad, 4 Iraqi soldiers killed, 16 US soldiers wounded and a helicopter hit.

Several blocks from this battle, a rocket slammed into a school playground killing a 6 yo boy, injuring 15 students and 2 teachers.

60 km nth in Muqdadiya, a woman suicide bomber threw herself amidst 200 Iraqi police recruits - killing 16 men, injuring 33.

And, at a checkpoint near Baghdad Uni, 6 civilians were killed when a taxi car bomb exploded.

12 April: A suicide bomber attacked the Iraqi Parliament, having penetrated 8 lines of US forces security checkpoints, killing 8 including 3 lawmakers.

A suicide truck bomber collapsed bridge in Baghdad, with cars plunging into Tigris river, killing 10, 26 injured.

On April 16 - the V Tech gunman who was also on a suicide mission.

This came on the back of the Harvest Moon ... southern hemisphere - although in places like Egypt etc there were two harvests per year preceding inundation of the Nile, one in late March/early April - and the Harvest Moon is followed by the Hunter's Moon (also known as Blood Moon or Sanguine Moon).
The Harvest Moon was time where itinerant reapers/workers were hired, ie. "the Hired Hand".

The new Moon bringing with it news of the Johnson Space Centre shooting.

But as you've raised it, to repeat some observations made elsewhere using:

_________________________________________________________

Chart: 7.15am on 16 April, 2007 at Blacksburg, Montgomery County, Virginia. (Asc: 5 Taurus 8'32"; Placidus)


The 7th is the house of "open enemies" and this is the house I'd initially give this opponent of the state - the shooter - to.

7th is ruled by Mars, which also co-rules interception in 12th.

12th is also house of secret or hidden enemies to the state of the 1st, and a house of anguish, incarceration and/or those things occurring behind the scenes (eg. covert operations).

We find Moon & Mercury intercepted in 12th, under rule of a frustrated and possibly suppressed Mars.

This speaks towards the perpetrator's state of mind. The Moon & Mercury are lorded over by Mars, which points to the inflamed and confrontational thoughts arising from the subconscious mind finding form as he willed it, Sun intercepted in 12th also.

The 12th is also 6th from 7th - 6th is house of illness, and this person was ill.

The Moon, as a reflection of a dimension of the perpetrator's mind, was running "fast and low" (spd 15*10'56") close to horizon, had conjoined and surpassed Mercury (reason) - while it surpassed reason (into the irrational) he'd developed a strategy for his action ... manifesting steps towards this action as the Sun daily progressed. In addition, Moon was waning to new.

Mercury rules 3rd (which is 9th from 7th) ruling the student body of the perpetrator's academy that was intercepted behind the scenes.

Moon rules 4th (the 10th from 7th) reflecting the authorities of the institution also intercepted, and their helplessness to do much about the circumstances but also acting quick, instinctively.

12th is co-ruled by Jupiter (adding a quality of strength to the disparate action) and Mars is posited in 11th, also ruled by Jupiter - he'd built up a head of steam seeking release.

The 11th is 5th from 7th (him), pointing to the romantic interest, and the values of the opposition which he attacked.

Mars, the shooter (in Pisces has potential to be a 'loose canon'), is square Venus in Gemini in 1st on cusp of 2nd, the square suggesting inflammation of feeling and passions and pointing to a challenge he encountered in the pursuit of his love interest, and what he may have found to be something that he perceived as a double or superficial standard.

Venus in Gemini in the state's 1st also indicates the issue of the 'right to bear arms' (arms associated with Gemini), gun ownership, on the cusp of 2nd bringing forward the value attached. Also his opposition to the material wealth he raged against (Venus rules Ascendant, Taurus).

In addition, that Venus is disposited by Mercury which is intercepted in 12th ... the idea of this local liberty of possessing guns he intercepted and put to work, employed in service (12 is 6th from 7th) against his perceived opponents (the 1st, which Venus rules). This liberty/idea/value is one that contributed to bringing the 1st undone.

First the love ideal (Mars square Venus) through to broader issue. Note, Venus is on the cusp of His 8th (8th from 7th, his 1st) ... and the 8th is the house of death amongst other things. This also speaks towards his feeling and ideas concerning death, as well as the deaths perpetrated over those in the domain he was lording over, as well as his own.

In addition, Venus (22*47 N) is contra-parallel Jupiter (22*18 S) - contra parallel is like an opposition, Jupiter in his 2nd, ruling Mars and co-ruling 12th in Sagittarius (his opposition's 8th).

Suggests he believed he had "right" on his side (Jupiter rx in his 2nd) , this was a crusade with a certain zeal ... and note, Jupiter had turned retrograde which intensified things. His actions were desperate, deep as well as disparate.

Jupiter was strong and on his side hemispherically, co-ruled the area where those others were intercepted and added strength to the steam.

That it's contra-parallel to Venus (ruler of 1st - which is his perceived enemy) is an additional indication as to the values he was on a crusade against (in opposition to).

Jupiter had turned retrograde also in pursuit of the establishment (Saturn rx) which is in detriment ... and the trine (part of a grand trine) indicates the ease with which this pursuit was carried forth, but it also points to a well worn groove that the authorities are in.

In addition, that Saturn rx points to the issues he had with an absent(?) father (which can thrust an emphasis back on mother) ... and stepfather (?) as well as the limitations of his social network (Saturn's in 5th, which is his 11th). Saturn is rx, opposing Chiron, which can hold potential for opening old wounds anew.

Saturn rx, co-rules the 11th, where Mars is posited. Saturn in its detriment in Leo ruling 11th, indicates by day a certain "hardening" of resolve took place, and this Mars, in a house with Aquarius on cusp, is something of a free radical, with Saturn rx in Leo suggesting a dimension of arrogance brought into the mix which is both a self defense mechanism and to his own detriment.

That this desperate young man - with an emphasis on the lunar dimension as well as concerned with issues about his mother - carried out these actions in a state known as the "Mother of Presidents" and the "Mother of States" illuminates a broader issue that goes back to the roots of establishment, and that of gun control.

I thought it of passing interest to see the motto of "Sic semper tyrannis" ... meaning "Thus always to tyrants". With tr Venus in Gemini this value/feeling has the quality of a dual meaning which faces a challenge (square Mars). This is a tough one when it comes to gun issues.

While Jupiter rx is pursuing Saturn rx, Saturn is about to turn direct.

The judiciary will possibly look among the authorities for a scape-goat to blame, however I think there will also possibly be a strong confronting of the issue of gun control ... which also goes back to the President (Saturn rx, rules 10th) and the President's values (rules 11th).

Bottom line, guns are designed ultimately to kill.

Their lesser uses being to wound, maim, stop someone/something in its tracks, assert control over a situation, or for self-protection.

The idea of a gun's purpose for self protection/preservation unfortunately also feeds into living in a subtle state of fear & paranoia against attack - a "just in case" defensiveness perpetually residing behind the scenes.

Conferring a right to own guns is also conferring a right to kill - if it's regarded as an "absolute right" then also an absolute right to kill ... a "right" to participate in destruction of matter that houses soul & spirit. At what point is destruction reigned in?

It also illuminates issues concerning trust - in who/what hands trust is placed.

At the next level up, and the broader social level, this shooter was a potential catalyst for review and change, and it's possible his catastrophic actions will not be in vain.

I think there is a transformation that Pluto rx (as modern ruler of 7th) indicates is possible on the larger scale arising from this tragic loss of life and its subsequent review, but it too has a process to go through.

Also ...

The Venus in the Gemini division contra-parallel Jupiter in Sagittarius is an awareness (also a quality of an "opposition") of the value of ideas, training, "arms" , adhering to a set of ideas as relates to higher education, young scholars, students in university, college, religion, judges, senators, councillors etc.

As Venus is in applying square to Mars, and as the days accumulate and Moon begins to wax, this application suggests certain issues & shots will escalate/accumulate - taking note of Venus conjoining Aldebaran, (lends a dimension of focus/precision).

The Johnson Space Centre in Houston, Texas - another training/education facility as well as "home" for Mission Control (MC) is also reported to have a gunman who's barricaded himself inside a building, housing a communication (Mercury) system, with shots fired.

To all who've been directly or indirectly touched by these events, my heartfelt condolences.

_______________________________________________________


Ever noticed how the motion of the Moon in its conjoining the Sun (eg. new Moon) is similar to someone's action in bringing their hands together in prayer?

In peace & with kind regards,

TS
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say the moons transit better describes the flow of the event, from contact to Mercury ruler 3rd (arguement, then shooting 2 people) to sextile Chiron and then neptune perfection of his mental illness, and taking time ot put together and mail a very vivid disclosure of just how mentally ill he was, both communication and sad illusion, to the perfection with Sun Trine Pluto who is on the Non Turned 9th house cusp. consider the emotion and action coupled with the death and regeneration on the cusp of the 9th house, education and law.

add to that Jupiter Retrograde, the ugly side of a very judgemental jupiter, in the 8th house, Trine a very debilitated restricted Saturn(authority deterred), with moon perfecting the Trine before perfecting her trine to Neptune, and action seems assured.

With Venus trying to perfect a square to mars, the initial angst is described, but I have to say I think it is the moons transits here that show the actions, more than any other planet.

I agree with the assesment the person is mentally ill, but I'm not certain I see a need to turn the chart in this case. I think non turned shows it all quite clearly..

well just my view on the chart. seems to me it, the moon, is activating?

now having said that....Some disagreements...
Just in case you dont know this about me TS, I'm pro gun.

Guns dont kill people, people kill people. that is not just an annoying saying, its fact. There are more guns per capita in Canada than the US and far fewer murders. gee what up? It isnt' the guns doing the killing.

One of the most Ironic things I recall when my girls were in HS is that one of their teachers was a big anti gun freak and assigned everyone to bring in three articles about murder to school on Monday Morning.

My kids were tearing through the paper on monday morning and indeed found three articles on murder. Not one was commited with a gun. two stabbings and a strangulation. I found it humorous and so entirely appropriate.

here is a different thought, if other people had been armed how many people would the lunatic have been able to kill? it wouldn't have been 32 that's for sure.

as to the escalation in Iraq and Afghanistan, people expect escalation of violence in war zones, it is in allegedly non combatant zones that such violence usually brings surprise. If such things were going on in say Montreal or Munich that would be something to gain my attention, but on a daily basis it is happening in Iraq, so it doesn't gain as much attention. I dont think those are good comparisons. (not that those people suffer any less, but I would think it less surprising)

Also Ideology, in my opinion, is a word more closely related to belief than Idea. and an Idea may lead to a belief but it isn't one. my two cents others may vary.

Granny
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LeeLu



Joined: 18 Apr 2007
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Location: Toronto

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"... Guns dont kill people, people kill people. that is not just an annoying saying, its fact. There are more guns per capita in Canada than the US and far fewer murders. gee what up?..." granny_skot

Canada has very rigorous gun control laws. In Canada, in 1997, the rate was 0.25 guns per capita versus 0.82 in US. Granny, it's a myth that Canada has more guns... (unless something drastically changed in the past decade)


Last edited by LeeLu on Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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LeeLu



Joined: 18 Apr 2007
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Location: Toronto

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Virginia Tech killer, Cho Seung-hui reportedly had a red writing on his arm - "Ismael Ax". Some people speculate that could be connected to the novel "Moby Dick" (and Cho could have read it being an English major student) where 1st sentence states "Call me Ishmael". Ishmael is also connected to the biblical character, a son born to Abraham and Abraham’s wife’s servant Hagar (because it was believed Sarah was infertile) and both Ishmael and Hagar were ordered to leave later (after Sarah had Isaac). The name came to symbolize orphans, exiles and social outcasts. Possibly, Cho Seung identified with the ‘Ishmael’ characters.
It is interesting to see the triwheel with Virginia massacre chart, Cho’s (noon) chart, and chart of a first printing of Moby Dick (noon chart).

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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 247

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Leelu,

Quote:
Canada has very rigorous gun control laws. In Canada, in 1997, the rate was 0.25 guns per capita versus 0.82 in US. Granny, it's a myth that Canada has more guns...


Thanks for sharing that, and for linking together the charts! Smile

----

Hi Granny,

The Moon, as the closest and fastest planet to Earth, will always show the most immediate-current-flow of action as relates to an event on Earth, at least that's my view.

I'm also of the view any chart for a given moment will reflect the "all" of that moment, and that moment in the 'all' of the greater scheme of time as it relates to things, in numerous ways.

But, to begin is usually a matter of order.

First question usually when applying and tracing the order is to which house would you initially allocate an opponent?
Usually it's the 7th ... if we're considering that person as an open enemy that is. If it's him - as the opponent - then initially he fits area of 7th - open enemy - as well as the 12th, hidden enemy. (Both areas Mars had rulership).


To begin, this person was an open opponent to the health of the 1st , and it was the location of the place where this event occurred (long & lat) and the time at that location that established the angles, in particular Asc, for this chart ... not, for example, this young man's natal chart.

In addition, there's the very close contra-parallel (opposition) at that time/date between Jupiter rx (which is in the area of VTech's 8th, 8th from area of Asc) and Venus on the cusp of his turned 8th.

Jupiter rx disposits Mars (both are Lords of 12th, Mars ruling 7th) & Venus is lord of the area where the school's located, 1st, Asc, as applies to Mars, Venus is challenged.

8th either way and 8th is an area of death.

And as the Sun rose above the horizon that day, obscuring the starry heavens, the power of Jupiter rx was on his side (hemispherically).

I personally consider Pluto far too slow for a "trigger", but it's part of the scene and whole body of action and it contributes to defining the longer/bigger/broader picture that's been building over time which for that moment was also brought into the mix, also translated via transit of Moon ... all of that which the Moon collected and translated made manifest (visible) by the Sun.

As a student of the Tech, I think he's also reflected by Mercury's rulership of 3rd (Placidus), Mercury intercepted within/by himself (Mars). As a 'young scholar' in his own right, he's also reflected by Jupiter rx, in the 8th, his 2nd.

Lots of different angles and inroads into this, but as astrologers we usually begin with considerations of 1st ,relative to the 1st and it usually tends to follow from there, in context of what's being considered. Order doesn't have to start from there, just that it usually does.

For me personally, I think aligning it with the celestial(star)-earth divisions (sidereal) gives a clearer indication as to the nature and quality of what went on than the solar-earth (tropical) paradigm ... but under the solar construct as relates to matter the chart to me is still very telling. Lol!!! Simply a matter of perspective and order, so I look at things a little differently again. Very Happy And I've only really touched the surface of this chart, but there appears a repetition of themes.

Quote:
"Just in case you dont know this about me TS, I'm pro gun.
Guns dont kill people, people kill people. that is not just an annoying saying, its fact."


I don't find it an annoying saying - people do kill people. People invented guns and put them to use (and continue to do so) precisely for that purpose, killing people.
Guns are a manufactured extension of a man/woman's hand in their smaller form. And they do something that a person, without the artifical extension, is physically incapable of achieving.
For guns to pose no risk, they get dismantled and locked away.
And I can appreciate the attempted cleverness at semantics with this saying pointing to the intelligence which resides behind the firing of a gun.
Equally, intelligence could be questioned as to the need & desire to artificially penetrate things beyond someone's reach that gave rise to mankind making guns in the first place. A reflection of mankind's weakness? That a certain laziness set in?

Attacks - direct or by extension - simply cause others to fortify defenses (the grand trine in the chart indicates defensive fortification, a well-worn groove), whereby ultimately both ends end up living in a prison whether it's of the governing system's making or of their own. The world as someone knows it gets a lot smaller. But exploding stuff has been known to release tension and of the man-made variety make people feel better about themselves.

The safety catch was not on, Saturn (the brakes) being rx and in detriment disposited by Sun intercepted and ruled by Mars.

The idea of home/personal security was intercepted and not - well at least not from what appears indicated to me in this chart - in very good condition.

The primary purpose of a loaded gun in action is to kill.
What changes is the target and targets change according to change of environment.
Anywhere there's a population of people and guns are involved a target will also be people.

To me it's really quite simple. Responsible owners know the dangers involved with guns, are often responsible enough to take the necessary precautions in storing them securely, and don't make them readily available to whomever walks in the door.

The planet of responsibility (Saturn) was rx and in detriment.

Assuming responsibility involves an education process, stages of learning, and is relative to someone's self control (eg. ability to control one's own temper) and state of mind. It also involves an ability to consider others beyond one's own self, ego (which is also a dimension of Sun).

The human brain continues growing until around age 23-25, the maturation process being ongoing naturally, with a significant benchmark in adulthood being around 30 (Saturn return).
Natural decision making processes mature slowly.
This young man was approaching his 2nd Jupiter return (Dob: 18 Jan, 1984; Seoul, Sth Korea).

This might be of interest:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5327550.stm


To confer the right of gun ownership upon someone is also conferring a right to attack and to kill. Whether we like it or agree with it or not, such is the purpose of a gun.

That's what they're designed for - a weapon to direct an explosive in attack against some physical body/structure to penetrate to kill (for consumption), destroy, seize power, control.

Even when intent may be to simply take it down the range to practice hitting a few targets to practice one's skill at marksmanship, intent varies according to individual, but the purpose for which guns were designed hasn't changed. And over time they've simply improved on design to make these tools more effective in the job they've been designed for.

If he'd reached for a knife owing to it being more easily available than a gun (both attributable to "Mars") he would still have caused terrible injury, but hell-bent on such a rampage the damage ensuing from his erruption would not have been to the same magnitude or so scattered, widespread (32 people dead).

In addition, knives serve a dual purpose, one for healing (eg. scalpels in surgery). Guns don't have that duality - they aren't a tool designed or developed to assist in the healing of anything.

Quote:
"if other people had been armed how many people would the lunatic have been able to kill?"


Imo, that's a sales pitch for commerce/trade, but in the realm of commercial fantasy. [As relates to that event chart, Mercury's in 12th].

Taps into fear and the potential of turning it into a profit for retailers and manufacturers.
It's an angle for initiating and increasing sales.

The mercantile approach to proliferating gun ownership (without sound checks and balances, which any responsible merchant who prides him or herself in business already has in place as they value their customers) is short-sighted and is actually bad for repeat business.

What customers get left if they shoot themselves (due to lack of knowledge about how a gun works), or their kids get hold of it due to their ignorance of the need to securely store weapons, or they're out shooting others?

It significantly reduces one's local market.
A responsible merchant has a vested interest in ensuring the checks take place and the product they sell are used properly and in hands that aren't out seeking revenge - guns are a specialized market.

This chart also shows the opportunism of the merchant from whom he purchased the guns, imo.

Turning a highly unfortunate incident into a retail opportunity resulting in increased sales and turnover which also naturally increases the likelihood of such incidents occurring as guns proliferate in all types of hands is not something I agree with. Sorry.

Arm the other students for example?
More guns in the hands of youth?
In unskilled hands lacking knowledge etc and under panicked confrontational circumstances, how many other students would've been potentially caught in the random cross-fire contributing to a further rise in the death toll?

Or arm the teachers? Yet to keep them out of the hands of hot-headed students they'd have to store them under lock and key in secure out of reach zone (wardrobes - where Jupiter joys in - are a derivation of 'armoury'), which in the rapid pace of unfolding events a person attempting to reach the armoury would more than likely have been shot before-hand.
A person with the agenda he had in mind would also know where those weapons were stored. He planned, had a strategy (Mercury).

This line of reasoning escalates an existing problem. It doesn't deal with it, contain it or reduce it.

Quote:
"There are more guns per capita in Canada than the US and far fewer murders. gee what up?"


Less murders in Canada yet more guns?

"It has been estimated that as many as 5 million gun-owning Canadians have not registered their firearms. As of June 2003, only 6.4 million firearms had been registered." [Wikipedia]

"In a December 1993 Gallup survey, 49% of U.S. households reported owning a gun, and 31% of adults reported personally owning one. These figures indicate that there are about 47.6 million households with a gun, with perhaps 93 million, or 49% of the adult U.S. population living in households with guns, and about 59.1 million adults personally owning a gun.” [Study: “Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun.” By Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz.]

59.1 million people reported owning guns in US (conservatively 1 gun per person = 59.1 million guns) vs 6.4 million guns reported for ownership registration in Canada.

If Canadian population is about 32,887,955 and the US is about 301,666,350 then it looks to me like the percentage of known guns relative to population is about equal ... US a fraction higher.

In Canada an average I've seen reports that approx. 1300 die from gunshot wounds pa.
In US, figure was around 29,570 for 2001 ... with a peak in the 20-24 yo age group.

I'm confident stats etc will vary depending on the agenda being promoted etc, but that's a lot of people dead - 1 town per year.

If as you suggest, Canada has more guns per capita with less deaths, then that goes back to responsibility, safety standards, etc implicit in their gun control laws.

Virginia gun laws:
http://www.stategunlaws.org/viewstate.php?st=VA

US Federal gun laws:
http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/FederalGunLaws.aspx?ID=60

Canada laws:
http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/GunControlLaws.html

And I appreciate gun laws vary across the US. In this instance though, if I recall correctly, this young man had been for a period previously committed to an institution for mental care, and there was something about him behaving as a stalker (although I don't know whether there was a restraining order taken out) ... which appears to go against US Federal laws, but owing to local laws slipped through.

For comparative purposes with other countries I'd have thought would also look towards the likes of Japan & Great Britain.

Quote:
"as to the escalation in Iraq and Afghanistan, people expect escalation of violence in war zones,"


Escalations in violence happen everywhere from time to time, people anticipate its occurrance everywhere - be it a home invasion, a pub brawl, to roaming street gangs, to a brawl in a soccer/football match, to outright war etc.

A major contributing factor to the magnitude of damage perpetuated is what's most easy to get one's hands on when tension and fear runs high and self control and respect runs low, and one wants to dominate and make an impact, assert themselves over others.

While living in a combat zone, I'm quite sure those kids at school and the 6yo that was killed were just as surprised as those at V Tech. No-one really expects such things to happen directly to them. It's always surprising when one finds escalation of such things occurring in one's own locale.

It's unfortunate that the desensitization of observers viewing such things through the media also has a way of allowing complacency to set in.

Any shot fired is a wake-up call.

Those events that were listed gain as much attention in the hometown and countries where they occur as this did in yours - and the war that's been raging has held the attention of the international community for a long time, just as I imagine the divisions over gun control issues have held the attention of many within the bounds of the US for a long time.

It's unfortunate, but I also think the world has also become somewhat accustomed to associating this sort of violence - school shootings etc - with the US.

Take Gunhilde's general comment above for example, while she spoke only for herself and not specifically about the US, she also echoes the thoughts of many people.

The question I think at this point really is what's going to be done about it.

But in all this, what I do find odd is that with all the talk and concerns about terrorism (overseas or in one's own backyard) that something like gun controls haven't been uniformly tightened across the board within the boundaries of the US.

If guns are easy to obtain, they're easy for all to obtain.

The ease with which they're obtained makes them commonplace, and that which is commonplace is usually taken for granted, and that which is taken for granted is usually paid less attention to and often treated with less respect.

Introducing tougher checks and balances makes it less easy to obtain something that poses such a serious threat to life. It would not wipe out all such occurrences but it would significantly contribute to reducing opportunities - instead of increasing the opportunities - for them to be used.

Ideology is simply a systematic body of concepts, and it's also a study of the origin and nature of ideas.
Ideas lead to beliefs, the system (or order) of reasoning can also lead to the realization of certain truths.

A question often when it comes to beliefs is that of whether it's blind belief (which has largely lost sight of the system of reasoning/ideas) or whether there's awareness of the ideas - reasoning process - residing behind it which led to the belief.

And ideas can be fixed, eg. Mercury in fixed signs, or disposited by a planet in a fixed sign etc.

Kind regards,
TS.
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 800

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just think the fabric of the world is somehow ... stretching... and that people who are less able, constitutionally, to cope with the stretching, are reacting in this manner: fear and violence.

I personally think guns are the stupidest thing ever invented by humans (apart from Cabbage Patch dolls, perhaps), and would agree with the anti-gun people, although I do see the point that it is the user of the gun, and not the gun itself, that is the perpetrator of violence. But there is no point in having a gun, unless you are one of those people who are troubled by the world's stretching and feel you must 'protect' yourself. Or kill other people.

The ideal would be (and I am speaking as an Aquarius ascendant/11th house Sun/Venus person here! Smile ) not to get rid of guns, but to somehow change the collective worldview that there is no need to have them, in the first place, and that *any* problem can be solved with other methods.

*sigh*

I can dream.
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would disagree with this statement "That's what they're designed for - a weapon to direct an explosive in attack against some physical body/structure to penetrate to kill (for consumption), destroy, seize power, control" the opposite is also true, they are for protection, to regain control to defend. As long as government has guns, so should the populace, else you get government run amok.

Also the problem with the young mans commitment, since the psychiatrist didn't commit the young man, he was able to buy a gun. So no the federal law didn't apply because the commitment wasn't upheld. if there is an outside fault, its that dang psych who was not able to see the problem here. well imo.
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 247

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"the opposite is also true, they are for protection, to regain control to defend."


Not really, they weren't initially designed to defend or protect - walls were built for those purposes, and regaining control is a counter-attack.

Obtaining guns for self defense (with the intention to use as such is then really for purpose of counter-attack) occurs after the notion that some perceived threat of attack has already arisen - arming self in defense is a thought-after-the-fact, based in a fear some sort of deprivation will occur.
And fear can & does lead to irrational behaviour of varying extremes.

We saw with this young man what happens when someone feels under constant threat of attack - in fear - in his case to a paranoid extreme (severe self-esteem problems, all fault projected on his perceived aggressors), who, to put an end to this perceived threat, went on the attack in a highly organized/methodical manner.


From "The Anatomy of Motive", by John Douglas and his associate, Mark Olshaker, the chapter entitled "Shadow of a Gunman" that I saw online:

"Assassin personalities tend to be white male [add in: not limited to white males] loners with self-esteem problems - no surprises there, since that describes a huge chunk of the violent predator population. More specifically, they tend to be functional paranoiacs.

They shouldn't be confused with paranoid schizophrenics, who have a serious psychosis often described as shattered personality.

The people we're dealing with may be delusional, but they're not hallucinatory. Rather, their paranoia may be described as a highly organized or methodical delusional system...

In other words, if you accept the basic (but delusional) premise that everyone is out to get a particular individual and is ready and able to do harm, then it becomes a convincing argument that this individual should strike out and neutralize these enemies before they can act against him.

Sometimes the delusional system will be based on a kernel of truth, but there will be no correlation between the defined problem and the action taken to deal with it."


and ...

"Assassins try to "compensate for what they see, either consciously or subconsciously, as their emotional shortcomings...

"One of the most common way, as you might suspect, is gun fetishism... they begin to stockpile weapons and ammunition.
[ed. note: While it is still unknown whether Cho had more guns than the 2 he used in the shooting, it was found that he had more than 320 rounds of ammunition stored in his car. They haven't even thoroughly investigated his dorm room or house yet. It would not be surprising if more was found.]

"The gun is a means of empowering this inadequate personality, ensuring them that when they want to, they can attain our three old standbys of manipulation, domination, and control".



Quote:
"As long as government has guns, so should the populace, else you get government run amok."


The general populace should get guns - be armed with weapons - because they're afraid of what the government might do some time down the track?

Civilians can hold a government in check and force it to act responsibly (according to who's vsn of responsibility?) by holding a gun to its head - either by way of the threat implied or in reality?
Who then does that make the tyrant?

An action based upon a fear that the government will run amok and turn the military upon its own people?
Why would it do that?

That also appears reflective of the grand trine in the event chart. At some point in time there's a requirement to pass beyond Mars, and come to terms with Saturn.

Guns in the hands of the populace for this reason is self-defeating.

A general populace already exhibiting numerous divisions doesn't stop or prevent (by way of possessing such a threat) its government from running amok.

A general populace armed with weapons, unorganized, untrained and largely unskilled in combat stands little to no chance against a well trained and organized national military who are skilled in the arts of war and on call by the administration. The national military knows the local terrain just as well, if not better, and they're better equipped on all fronts.

The populace would come unstuck (it's the tax payer's dollar that funds military training, gvt throws lots of money at that area).
If such a thing was to occur, then the populace fragments into guerilla bands of militants.

An alternative way of tempering a government - aside from the election process etc - is for the public purse to dry up, to stop supporting and financing its efforts. Taxpayers money is what gvt draws upon to do what it wants and needs to do, including the keeping and provision of a military.

What is somewhat disturbing about this notion though is that if this is a prevalent idea, then the people holding to that idea are living in a constant state of fear and tension inside their own borders, on constant defensive against each other and against the various states and administrators, not united under democracy (forget what's going on overseas, problem's at home).

People buckle under such tension.

And any notions of peace are unattainable under such conceptions, it's one that simply perpetuates and spreads fear and ultimately results in wars ... within individuals, between individuals, within communities, between communities so on and so forth as people are on the defensive, constantly vigilant, reacting to real or imagined fears. And if re-acting, then already on the backfoot.

If it's for personal self-defense of another kind, well having a gun is close to futile if someone's already pointing one at you.

And in the event of an attack, aside from the element of surprise, the attacker if physically larger etc can by sheer force often quite easily over-power someone smaller with less strength, lacking confidence in such a situation, and turn the weapon against the one who holds it. In unskilled and untrained hands many mistakes get made.

Knowing one's own physical capabilities via a proper self defense course or the discipline of learning a martial art is as effective a form of self defense as any - if not moreso, because it genuinely increases self confidence and self esteem, and this self esteem is in itself often a natural deterant to predators who look for vulnerability, instinctively can sense it.

For the purpose of defending, any number of things can be turned against an unexpected attacker and stop them in their tracks.

For someone to extend their physical capabilities artificially before they know what they themselves are personally physically and mentally capable of in such situations is more of a liability than an advantage.

However, I don't see anything here so far that gives a reason for why there shouldn't be uniform gun controls which allow those with an interest in guns to pursue that interest safely and responsibly without posing a risk to other people, but gets many of the loose and dangerous arms floating around out of circulation.

Quote:
"if there is an outside fault, its that dang psych who was not able to see the problem here."


This young man's actions were the result of an accumulation of events over time which at no point did anyone bring to a halt.

For example, how is it that a judge's report that he was an imminent danger to himself and others didn't make it into his record?


"The magistrate ruled in 2005 that Cho presented “an imminent danger to self or others as a result of mental illness, or is so seriously mentally ill as to be substantially unable to care for self and is incapable of volunteering or unwilling to volunteer for treatment.”

The magistrate released him for outpatient treatment.

"The same 1968 federal gun law that bars convicted criminals from buying firearms (passed in the wake of the assassinations of Martin Luther King Jr. and Robert F. Kennedy) also prohibits gun purchases by those who have a history of mental illness. Indeed, when Cho bought the guns, he had to answer the following question on Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Form 4473: “Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective or … committed to a mental institution?” Cho answered “no.”
"He should have been in the FBI’s NICS system, but apparently states don’t always provide mental-health records as fully as they might or should."

Two girls put out a restraining order against him.

He purchased the gun from an on-line gun dealer who shipped it to the Pawnbrokers ... after the purchase did the federally-licensed dealer conduct a background check (CBS).

And then there's the concept of "if you see something suspicious report it".

A proliferation of guns in a community circulating for reasons of fear about what might be hidden around the next corner is a precursor to an extreme manifestation of this fear ... which is what this young man manifested ... it's also a fear that's manifesting by way of killing the equivalent of it would appear 1 US town per year.

That's not really public protection.

And obtaining a gun because of fear doesn't demonstrate courage, actually quite the opposite, it reveals more about how fearful a person has become, and to extend that, a community etc.

No amount of guns are going to eliminate such fear.

If someone's really intent on carrying out a particular mission, they will find a way of doing so using whatever means are available. For example, the suicide bomber who penetrated 8 lines of US forces security checkpoints to blow up Parliament.

More guns in circulation aren't going to prevent them doing so, just gives them more opportunity to get their hands on a means to an end.

Paying attention, listening and responsibly following through at the appropriate time it appears would've largely circumvented this escalation.

Kind regards,
TS


Last edited by Tumbling Sphinx on Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 247

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Gunhilde,

Quote:
"I just think the fabric of the world is somehow ... stretching... "


I think that's a great way of describing it. Smile

Might also be of interest at some stage to take a look into what larger cycles of time are culminating.

Cabbage Patch dolls?! Lol!!! I remember those, they seem to have disappeared.

Quote:
"to somehow change the collective worldview that there is no need to have them"


Yes, I agree, how people view needs - and what's needed - is key.
All it takes is a moment, starts with a thought, an idea, and ideas can be changed ... that's everyone's prerogative! Smile

People are free to choose, and free to experience the consequences of those choices, as well as the cumulative consequences of those choices - made individually & collectively. If the consequences are destructive, better choices can be made.

Kind regards,
TS.
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