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Tom
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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
We saw with this young man what happens when someone feels under constant threat of attack - in fear - in his case to a paranoid extreme


Attack? Who attacked him in such a manner that required this kind of response? There is an excellent little essay on the last page of the April 30, 2007, issue of Time magazine by David Von Drehle. His point is that after such horrific events people are always looking for excuses for the behavior such as guns, video games, movies, pornography, music, bullying, alienation etc. The real culprit according to the author is "raging narcissism." A narcissism so profound that the killers whose concern for the lives and feelings for others are completely absent and believe therefore, they have a license to kill them. They're just bugs.

Cho is such a case. We are told of his terrible lonliness yet ignore the oft repeted fact that when people spoke to him or approached him he would usually refuse to answer them. Of course he was lonely and alienated. He chose to be that way.

He has this characteristic in common with Ted Bundy, who once expressed surprise that anyone would miss his victims, Charles Manson, and Harris and Kliebold of Columbine infamy. They all are or were totally self-absorbed.

If anyone wants to do some astrology with this, then I suggest looking for indications of exreme narcissism, self pity, and other symptoms of self absorption, if those can be found. Freud argued that narcissism in adults was a result of the refusal to grow up. That might be another clue. Babies are completely self absorbed (and understandably so). We're expected to grow out of that. What might prevent that development?

Tom
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom,

Quote:
Attack? Who attacked him in such a manner that required this kind of response?


There was not any mention of anyone attacking him in what you grabbed, ie.

--"We saw with this young man what happens when someone feels under constant threat of attack - in fear - in his case to a paranoid extreme (severe self-esteem problems, all fault projected on his perceived aggressors), who, to put an end to this perceived threat, went on the attack in a highly organized/methodical manner." --

Narcissm is usually a character trait of "self love".
To all reports I've encountered this person was on the defensive, described as a loner (loner's have defenses up, shutting self off from others) which also can give rise to over-compensatory behaviour when drawn, ie. the arrogance reported also an over-compensatory defense for low self esteem (his frequent repetitions on video of not being good enough for x,y,z).

Low self esteem is not usually a trait of self love, more a trait of a lack of self love and self respect, and he also took himself out of the picture, committing suicide.

In the videos he forwarded he raged against what he saw in his own mind as wealth and symbols of wealth etc of others, what for example Christopher Lasch in his book "The Culture of Narcism" defined as "one in which every activity and relationship is defined by the hedonistic need to acquire the symbols of material wealth" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism.

Whether Cho's fears were a result of what had occurred in physical reality or imagined, it was also reported he was bullied for speech difficulties through middle and high school years - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre - many overcome such difficulties and being bullied, others don't.

Kind regards,
TS.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
when someone feels under constant threat of attack - in fear - in his case to a paranoid extreme


That was my point. He was not attacked. That he felt under attack is a sign of mental illness, not an excuse for mass murder. One could argue that he sufferred ridicule at the hands of high school classmates, but who hasn't? His actions weren't self-defense, they were calculated, he probably didn't know a single one of his victims, and any sense of attack is therefore quite irrelevant to his actions. He wanted attention and rejected it, pehaps as insufficient. Maybe he wanted to be worshipped.

Quote:
Narcissm is usually a character trait of "self love".


Couldn't disagree more. Self love or even self respect does not reach the extremes of the viewpoint that the only thing that matters is oneself (narcissism). A mother can experience and feel self love, but she might still be willing to sacrifce herself for a child. A narcissist wouldn't dream of that; he's too important. In several hours of interviews, Ted Bundy expressed regret over only one death - his own. Lee Harvey Oswald believed he would be "Prime Minister of the United States." It's one thing to love yourself. It is quite another to love yourself to the exclusion of all else.

Quote:
To all reports I've encountered this person was on the defensive, described as a loner (loner's have defenses up, shutting self off from others) which also can give rise to over-compensatory behaviour when drawn, ie. the arrogance reported also an over-compensatory defense for low self esteem (his frequent repetitions on video of not being good enough for x,y,z).


While all of this and more is probably true the point of my post which is really the point of the author in Time is that these are the trees that block our view of the forest. It was not others' fault that Cho was what he was. He believed that his suffering, his pain, his lonliness (Nobody knows the trouble I've seen) must be dealt with by spilling the blood of others then his own. He chose to shut himself off from the society of others. Others reached out to him and he rejected them. He rejected psychological help. Privacy and other laws prevented forced intervention. He had only himself to blame. The genuine victims of his madness have a better case against a society that protected him at the extreme expense of innocent lives lost.

Quote:
Low self esteem is not usually a trait of self love, more a trait of a lack of self love and self respect, and he also took himself out of the picture, committing suicide.


a) Self esteem is the most overrated human characteristic. Test after test has shown that career criminals have the highest "self esteem." Most recently it was reproted that only 9% of Korean kids (I think 5th graders) felt "confident" about their math ability compared to 39% of American kids the same age. The Americans had higher "self esteem." Problem is that the Korean kids vastly outdid the American kids in standarized math tests. Score one for low self esteem?

b) His suicide and the murders are just a extreme expression of the childish "See what you made me do?" He compared his death to that of Jesus Christ and told us all that his blood was on "our" hands. This is not self love, but self absorption and it is not "our" fault. He needed to get over himself, and if he couldn't, then he should have been put away.


Quote:
Christopher Lasch in his book "The Culture of Narcism" defined as "one in which every activity and relationship is defined by the hedonistic need to acquire the symbols of material wealth" -


Interesting that you should bring up Lasch, to wit:

Quote:
"A generation ago Christopher Lasch diagnosed narcissim as the signal disorder of contemporary American culture. The cult of celebrity, the marketing of of instant gratification, skepticism toward moral codes and the politics of victimhood were signs of a society regressing toward the infant stage. You don't have to buy Freud's explanation (i.e. narcissim is the result of not growing up - tc) or Lasch's indictment, however to see an immediate danger in the way we examine the lives of mass killers. Earnestly and honestly, dectectives and journalists dig up apparent clues and weave them into a sort of explanation. In the days after Columbine, for example, Harris and Klebold emerged as alienated misfits in a jock culture of their suburban high school. We learned about their morbid taste in music and their violent video games. Largely missing though was the proper frame around the picture: the extreme narcissim that licensed these boys, in their minds, to murder teachers and classmates." David Von Drehle, Time Magazine, April 30, 2007 p 76.


Self love can be healthy; Narcissism is not. Let's go back to astrology.
Tom
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom,

Quote:
"That was my point. He was not attacked. One could argue that he sufferred ridicule at the hands of high school classmates, but who hasn't?"


There is a difference between ridicule and bullying.

http:
//www.nypost.com/seven/04202007/news/nationalnews/
bullied_chos_hs_death_list_nationalnews_leela_de_kretser_
in___blacksburg__va___and_hasani_______gittens_in_
new_york.htm?page=1

In view of reports, he was out for revenge.

It's already been stated that he was mentally unwell, several times.
And I haven't seen anyone making any excuses for mass murder.

Quote:
"any sense of attack is therefore quite irrelevant to his actions."


Please explain how what someone feels/senses is irrelevant to their actions, to how they behave.

Quote:
"A narcissist wouldn't dream of that; he's too important."


And a narcissist repeatedly seeks out avenues for validation of that importance, the extreme disorder. It appears this young man didn't, he avoided attention wherever possible.

Neither Oswald or Bundy committed suicide.

Bundy stayed around for as long as he could and Oswald was shot.

"Media outlets routinely compared Cho's motives and mental state to those of the Columbine killers, despite the fact that Harris and Klebold's motives and mental states were not even similar to each other."
http://www.slate.com/id/2099203/

Imo, his actions were more comparable to a suicide attacker/bomber ... on his own personal crusade of predatory martyrdom ... more simply - revenge - against all those who he perceived in his own mind as representing his tormentors.

Re - a) "Self esteem is the most overrated human characteristic."
Lol! Healthy self esteem is never over-rated. Thought the super-ego rated higher?
He was not a career criminal.
That Korean kids vastly outdid American kids in a standardized math test demonstrates I'm not quite sure what exactly.
That self esteem is drawn from a standardized test ... and he was somehow like all other Korean kids, which he appears to have clearly demonstrated he wasn't?

b) Any anger expressed to the detriment of others which is also to the detriment of oneself is 'childish'.

Quote:
"This is not self love ... "


Seem to also recall mentioning that.

Quote:
"... but self absorption and it is not "our" fault."


And fear also causes self absorption - in his case to an extreme where he completely turned, which is already something previously mentioned, ie. extreme paranoia & blaming his perceived aggressors.

Quote:
"Self love can be healthy; Narcissism is not."


"The term narcissism means love of oneself, and refers to the set of character traits concerned with self-admiration, self-centeredness and self-regard. The name was chosen by Sigmund Freud, from the Greek myth of Narcissus, who was doomed to fall in love with his own reflection in a pool of water.
Whilst everyone is narcissistic to some degree, extreme narcissism can be highly dysfunctional, and is classified as a pathology called Narcissistic Personality Disorder."


Quote:
"Let's go back to astrology."


I've already shared some of my thoughts on the astrology of the event, the one point in particular that stands out to me being the Jupiter rx contra-parallel (opposition) to Venus. You?

TS.
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###



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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Let's go back to astrology.

After you’ve had your lengthy non-astrological say? Mad

How about doing it rather than suggesting it to others? Evil or Very Mad
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Labalance



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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Star IQ reports that Cho's birthday was Jan 18 1984 in Seoul, South Korea. Mars-Pluto conjunction in Scorpio. On Star IQ it was stated that that can be an indicator of an intense sexual drive. Any other thoughts?
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
After you’ve had your lengthy non-astrological say?

How about doing it rather than suggesting it to others?


How about paying attention Kirk. TS had a very lengthy non astrological remark and I followed with same. That's one apiece. And I'm not sure that you were appointed class supervisor recently.

Tom
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was going to do this privately, but Kirk insisted I do it this way:


Quote:
There is a difference between ridicule and bullying.


Not much - how do you bully with dignity?. One can be part of the other and I'm not going to get into a semantics argument. Furthermore this is quite beside the point. The point was that everyone is at some time ridiculed and/or bullied and some suffer greatly but very few retaliate with mass murder. This is just the current rage in pop psychology - blaming bullies. I say we blame the killer - how quaint.

Quote:
In view of reports, he was out for revenge.


He said that, and he didn't say he was trying to draw attention to himself, but so what? The guy made a videotape and sent it to a major media outlet. Now why would he do that if his motive was simple revenge against strangers, an idea that is frankly senseless. "They picked on me in high school and I refused to socialize in college, I'll fix them. I'll go kill a bunch of strangers and then myself." I don't think so.

If you're out for revenge, you pick and choose your target. You don't pick symbols. If you are just a deranged narcissist you kill anyone who is handy to draw attention to yourself It's all about you, isn't it?

Quote:
It's already been stated that he was mentally unwell, several times. And I haven't seen anyone making any excuses for mass murder.


[color=darkblue]The whole idea that these killings were the result of others "bullying" or ridiculing or rejecting him is a theme that is endlessly replayed for one purpose, to in some way make rational a wholly irrational act. Once we rationalize his actions we are making excuses for him and for Harris and Klebold and Bundy, although his is a tougher case as his childhood wasn't as bad as, say, Manson's.


Quote:
Please explain how what someone feels/senses is irrelevant to their actions, to how they behave.


Misundestood. It's irrelevant to me. The fact that he was bullied and to what extent does not in anyway justify or even explain his actions which, to put it mildly were way out of proportion to the injustice he felt. Woud you try to explain the relevance of his actions to parents who lost a child? And isn't it amazing how the true victims are lost in all of this? They aren't mentioned; it's all about him - the way he wanted it. Can you name a single individual or even where any of the victims were from? Of course not. He is glorified and the media and the ghouls participate in the glorification of a monster. while the pop psychologists look for someone else to blame. More than one idiot even blamed George Bush.

Quote:
And a narcissist repeatedly seeks out avenues for validation of that importance, the extreme disorder. It appears this young man didn't, he avoided attention wherever possible.


Wasn't that the purpose of sending the tape to a national news network? That is one big avenue. He wasn't satisfied with simply killing people for attention. Ever been to Blacksburg, VA? It's in the middle of nowhere. He had to be sure it got on the national nightly news and NBC needed the ratings, so they helped him realize his dream.

Quote:
Neither Oswald or Bundy committed suicide.


Harris and Klebold did. Not all narcissists do. So what's your point?

Quote:
"Media outlets routinely compared Cho's motives and mental state to those of the Columbine killers, despite the fact that Harris and Klebold's motives and mental states were not even similar to each other."


This is again, what seems to be missed by media outlets everywhere. This is again the point of the forest and trees analogy. Harris and Klebold blamed the jock culture and the fact they were bullied. So what? Regardless of the claimed motivations they were as narcissitic as Cho, as Bundy, as Oswald. If we concentrate on bullying and other indignities real and imagined we miss the point. Klebold, Harris, and Cho killed and committed suicide to bring attention to themselves. Oswald killed to do the same. Bundy's motivations were different and he tried to avoid detection, but that doesn't make him less of a narcissist. He actually said that he was surprised his victims were missed since there are so many people in the country. The really mattered to him. The one consistent characteristic in all of these is narcissism and it is, for the most part being ignored. Instead we hear how tough they had it, and why we should feel compassion for them - precisely what the killers wanted. Why define the killers on their own terms? Why not define tem for what they are - monsters.

Quote:
He was not a career criminal.


Noody said he was. I'll explain it more fully. People can have gobs of self esteem and not be good people, e.g. career criminals. People can have lower self esteem and do quite well. e.g Korean school children at math. Self esteem or lack of it explains very little by itself, and when self esteem is built on sand, it ultimately crumbles. The emphasis on self esteem without legitimate accomplishment is at best frivolous, at worst dangerous. Therefore in and of itself, "self-esteem" is wildly overrated.

Quote:
And fear also causes self absorption And fear also causes self absorption - in his case to an extreme where he completely turned, which is already something previously mentioned, ie. extreme paranoia & blaming his perceived aggressors.


His fears are his responsibility. And his responsibility is noticeably lacking in most discussions. Like all crazed killers, media outlets and others looking for reasons are really looking to blame somebody else. Oh they give lip service to personal repsonsibility, but little else. The idea that Cho's problems would not have manifested if everyone else did more for him is spurious. And that is what all of this adds up to. He did it. He's responsible - no one else, and he was completely self absorbed and his video made that irrefutable.

Quote:
I've already shared some of my thoughts on the astrology of the event, the one point in particular that stands out to me being the Jupiter rx contra-parallel (opposition) to Venus. You?


Had some all ready to go, but this and my friend Kirk intervened. And I'm through. You may have the last word.

Tom
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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few posts back we were invited to “do some astrology with this” and later instructed to “go back to astrology”, so here is my eager contribution.

LaBalance wrote:
Quote:
On Star IQ it was stated that that can be an indicator of an intense sexual drive.

That could be, or perhaps an intense power drive (Could be the same thing?). Mars at home in Scorpio tightly conjunct Pluto, both tightly sextile Mercury in Capricorn (exaltation of Mars) –that looks like a potentially ruthless configuration. Well-constructed secretive plans of action. The business world would probably have been a better arena for implementation.

It’s frustrating not having the time of birth, but solar charts are a lot of fun to play with and wonder about. First is the energy charge of a Cardinal Sun-Moon opposition. That sets a punchy tone. In his Solar Sign chart Mercury is in the highly personal 1st house with the Sun, and the sextiled Mars and Pluto are in the 11th house of things hoped for. The Sun in such a chart looks toward planets in the 11th, 10th, and 9th solar houses, so the Mars-Pluto conjunction is probably going to inspire the Sun and be of use to it. The Sun is out-of-sign but applying square to them, so the solar interest is activated.

If we draw up a Sun-on-1st chart, Mercury is now in the 12th house and more unconscious, hidden and somehow alienated. Mars and Pluto have moved into the 10th house and now can produce some angular action for the Sun. I almost never look at or use semi-squares, etc., but the very close Sun-Uranus semi-square puts Uranus on the midpoint between the Sun-on-1st chart’s ASC and MC. When it comes to the Sun doing what it wants in the world there’s going to be a Uranian touch.
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Christina



Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 82
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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom,

First, a belated Aloha (from the other thread where we all were discussing gender roles – some of which applies here).

I appreciate the info you shared on David Von Drehle’s "raging narcissism" and self absorption from Time magazine. It certainly put a good deal into perspective for me, as in it ‘got my eye back on the ball’ so to speak. Prior to your posts, I had been looking at the gunman’s chart using Dr. Michael Welner’s assertions that paranoid schizophrenics only become dangerous when they tie their masculinity/self identity to destruction (Welner is professor forensic psychiatry at New York University, views aired on CNN).

Narcissism in its extreme added to masculinity/self identity tied to destruction makes more sense to me.

In addition, Dr. Welner says “There is an important element to mass shooters of being immortal. And the way to get immortal through guns as a display of power and masculinity is a very important identification of identity for a person who's failed.” These types of shooters are generally not women because society’s models for femininity and feminine gender roles do not relate to feats of power or destruction. "Lethality speaks to the shooter's level of organization."

Since the gunman was particularly lethal we would also look for ability to pre-meditate, plan, organize and effect follow-through, along with desire for immortality, self identity/masculinity tied to destruction, grandiose fantasy/showmanship and the narcissism indicators that Tom posted

Quote:
If anyone wants to do some astrology with this, then I suggest looking for indications of exreme narcissism, self pity, and other symptoms of self absorption, if those can be found. Freud argued that narcissism in adults was a result of the refusal to grow up. That might be another clue. Babies are completely self absorbed (and understandably so). We're expected to grow out of that. What might prevent that development?.


Up-thread Leelu posted an image of the gunman’s noon birth chart (middle wheel of tri-wheel for event – thank you Leelu!). If anyone is interested in a sunrise chart then 7:50 am puts the Sun on the Ascendant in Seoul, South Korea. At sunrise, Saturn is conjunct the MC. Since we are working without a birth time, parans might be helpful. Anyone?

Using the Sun as one of the primary indicators for self identity, the gunman’s Sun is applying to square a strong Mars (exalt Lord) with essential dignity in Scorpio with reception (out of sign). Sun is also received by Saturn (domicile Lord) in Scorpio by sextile (organization). The Sun square Mars (which is partile conj Pluto) does point to a self-identity and masculinity linked to the malefics (destruction) along with rage (suppressed by Mars applying to Saturn conjunction = resentments build up). Possibly a "raging narcissism" indicator. The only other aspect to the Sun is an opposition from the Moon in Cancer.

Excessive, grandiose fantasy and showmanship would be the conjunction of Venus (show), South Node and Jupiter in Sagittarius with Mercury out of sign conj Jupiter (3rd planet in domicile). Mercury is slow, having stationed direct a week earlier. Uranus and Neptune are in the Sag conj as well. The Mercury, Jupiter, Neptune conj is sextile Mars (again organization, grand plan, acting out fantasy).

I'm sure there is much more here, even without a time. Tom, I'm hoping you'll reconsider and post the astrology you mentioned - I could use some more learning leaps Smile

Christina
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Tumbling Sphinx



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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom,

Quote:
TS had a very lengthy non astrological remark and I followed with same.


Tom, my response to Granny was still in context of the astrology already mentioned for the event chart and therefore post preceding yours only briefly echoed earlier observations, ie.

"That also appears reflective of the grand trine in the event chart.
At some point in time there's a requirement to pass beyond Mars, and come to terms with Saturn."


As was mentioned Mars was lord of 7th, Scorpio - the opposition, him - and it has attributions of the retaliatory quality of revenge. Mars disposited by Jupiter rx, the "predatory martyrdom" mentioned.

Quote:
Furthermore this is quite beside the point.


Not really. Not unless it's desired to keep his reality that's been reported out of the astrological considerations of this event, yet it was him and his reality that is at the centre of this turn of events.

Bullying is when a person is "exposed, repeatedly and over time, to negative actions on the part of one or more other persons ... when a person intentionally inflicts injury or discomfort upon another person, through physical contact, through words or in other ways."

It's reported about 85% of bullying victims suffer long term psychological damage and stress related disease later in their lives, and it's been shown that those (child or adult) who are persistently subjected to abusive behaviour can lead to suicide.

There have been numerous examples of people dying as a result of bullying - victims of bullying either committing suicide, or being killed by their bullies, or other people killed by victims of bullying.

He was bullied over an extended period of time according to reports and as events indicate became the ultimate bully.

Length of time - duration over which bullying occurs - is a factor, and time is a cumulative process, eg. fear turns to anger, anger turns to hatred - actions arising from anger also a negative manifestation of Mars. And Mars has a lot to do with offense/defense ... the fight/flight instinct.


You keep referencing blame - blame is an accusation. Blame's also reflected by Jupiter rx and the 12th house Mercury of the event chart.
Responsibility - he'd abdicated his, the Saturn rx in detriment is a reflection of a dimension of him ... and he's not around to take responsibility for his actions.

However, that Saturn rx in the event chart I think also tells us something about those in positions of authority, and the nature and quality of their actions leading up to and at the time of the event.

Quote:
The guy made a videotape and sent it to a major media outlet.


Yes, he made a videotape that he had no intention of seeing broadcast - in addition to misaddressing it. It largely aired additional venting of his spleen.

And if his motive was more than that arising from an accumulation and escalation of anger and resentment that culminated in his seeking revenge, he didn't appear to articulate it. He largely blamed.

Quote:
"If you're out for revenge, you pick and choose your target."


He did. He targeted the school he attended and the students and teachers of that school ... it was largely during his years at school where he's reported to have experienced bullying, the other area mentioned where it had occurred was at a church group.

Lacking a target he wouldn't for example have locked the teachers and students of his school in, keeping them prisoner to vent his rage ... he didn't for instance just sit in a park somewhere firing off random shots at passers-by.

Quote:
Once we rationalize his actions we are making excuses for him


I haven't yet seen anyone here justifying his actions.

Quote:
--Please explain how what someone feels/senses is irrelevant to their actions, to how they behave--.
Tom: Misundestood. It's irrelevant to me.


To be clear, you wrote: "any sense of attack is therefore quite irrelevant to his actions."

A "sense" of being under attack, or the sensing of any other thing, involves a person's senses.
And what someone senses goes directly towards their behaviour and actions ... whether it's the firing of ideas, words, or bullets.

In astrology you already know what planets are attributed the various senses, and if senses are irrelevant then it would seem to suggest so's the astrology ... so why call to focus on the astrology?

You've repeated the assertions of narcissm - a psychological snapshot and something which awaits clarification in context of this event and person ... but I see little point in mentioning narcissim if his senses you see as irrelevant, and little point attempting to focus others on the astrology if you're not going to elaborate on that dimension in context of this event.

Quote:
This is again, what seems to be missed by media outlets everywhere. This is again the point of the forest and trees analogy.


Sorry Tom, your comments here make little sense to me in context of the quote grabbed or the link prev. given.

But you've gone on to focus on blame ... we're already aware of who perpetrated this event.

There was also a cumulative sequence of events where others whom he came into contact with in positions of authority were presented with opportunities ... Saturn was retrograde, and also offers an indication as to how well they were listening, attentive.

Now that Saturn's shifted directions the authorities will probably proceed forward to confront matters raised by Jupiter rx as relates to that event, potentially looking at where procedures may be tightened up.

With Jupiter rx, the blame game you've alluded to will probably also continue.

And perhaps the approaching Mars conjunction of Uranus may convey an opportunity for some sort of revelation where Saturn's concerned.


Quote:
The one consistent characteristic in all of these is narcissism


How's that - some clarity about the narcissim you're defining in relation to this event and person would be helpful (narcissism being something which everyone according to its psychological definition has to differing degrees).

There's significant differences in the actions demonstrated by Cho compared to the other two, so the liberal application of 'narcisim' does appear as something of a broad generalization fixated on a single idea.

Quote:
and it is, for the most part being ignored.


Probably because as is indicated in the event chart there was a redirection of restrictions experienced (Saturn rx) involving the dimension of "self love" which is probably also suggestive as to why it's being ignored.

In the event chart, 12th house Sun disposits a debilitated Saturn, and that Sun intercepted (in Placidus houses, not in other constructs) in an area ruled by Mars and disposited by Mars - the loose canon - is at least to me not primarily about "self love" (narcism).

Instead more about the negative dimension of Mars - which supplants the Sun, and Mars in traditional context is disposited by Jupiter rx ... in modern context by Neptune (either way, suggestive of the added level of disillusion/delusion).

Quote:
"Instead we hear how tough they had it ..."


The actions of a person aren't separate from the person who commits them, and the person is not separate from the life they've led, for better or worse.

Quote:
" ..and why we should feel compassion for them"


What have you been reading? I haven't seen (yet) anything written about this event telling other people how they should or shouldn't feel.

Quote:
Therefore in and of itself, "self-esteem" is wildly overrated.


(sigh) ... and I thought you were having some fun with this point as I've seen you do before.
This was precisely why I mentioned -- "healthy" self-esteem is never overrated. If it's healthy it's not rated over and above ....

Quote:
"His fears are his responsibility. And his responsibility is noticeably lacking in most discussions."


Most discussions? Well in this discussion Saturn rx (responsibility) has already been touched upon, in this post and earlier - before your entry ... why are you introducing what may appear to be lacking in discussions elsewhere in this thread?

Quote:
"Had some all ready to go, but this and my friend Kirk intervened. And I'm through.


Really?
That decision's unfortunate.

-----

Kirk, Christina and Labalance - you've shared really good observations on the natal on this page to keep the astrology flowing. Thank you. Smile

Kind regards,
TS


Last edited by Tumbling Sphinx on Sat Apr 28, 2007 10:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
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unique_astrology



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 141

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:50 am    Post subject: My rectification of a birthtime for Cho Reply with quote

Of course birth times using approximately 6 hour increments will all show similarities.

http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f111/unique_astrology/CHO/

Bob
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