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Lee Lehman on participating Triplicity rulers
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Finland

Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just found something interesting when I was studying charts of homicides with ADB. I was looking at the group of 145 diurnal charts (because I wanted to take element rulers in sect into consideration) and I found out, that these people have peregrine Mars clearly more often that average. Mars is peregrine more often than in his fall or detriment - Lilly says that peregrine planets are worst and he would seem to have a point there.

Then I took every peregrine position separately: Mars in 0-10 Gemini, Mars in 20-25 Gemini, Mars in 0-20 Leo, Mars in 0-24 Virgo, Mars in 0-25 Sagittarius, Mars in 0-25 Aquarius and Mars in 0-20 Pisces (I didn't consider Mars in his fall or detriment peregrine at this point). But I got "positive" result only from Gemini, Virgo and Aquarius. Mars was less frequently in Leo, Sagittarius and Pisces in murderer's charts than in average charts.

What could be the reason for that? Using Ptolemy's (and only Ptolemy's) triplicities with all three triplicity rulers Mars is never peregrine in Fire or Water signs! Could that be the reason the murderers get clear peaks with Mars in certain degrees of Gemini and especially of Virgo and Aquarius, when compared to a control group calculated from occasional data?

This result changes my attitude to the participating rulers. It would seem that peregrine planets are more serious an issue than I had anticipated, but they're also less frequent.
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leephd



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
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Location: Asheville, NC, USA

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:48 pm    Post subject: Participating Triplicities Reply with quote

That is a very interesting post. And this is exactly the sort of work we need more of.

Since I was cited at the beginning of this thread, let me comment a little more fully than I had in Martial Art.

I think it's very important that we not assume that a technique that works in horary automatically works in natal, or vice versa. My approach to horary has always been: bang for the buck. I will question anybody's method when I see that I am getting wrong answers using it.

But AstroDataBank searches are positively wonderful for cutting to the heart of the chase as to what is going on in natal.

One of the simple facts of our existence is that, more often than not, we don't get what we think we want. However, there also seems to be good research that suggests that human being are remarkable for being able to see the positive.

As a result of these simple facts, horary frankly needs to be stacked to give a "no" answer. Natal, on the other hand, does not generally, although the same thing is true for predictive methods related to dynamic matters, such as solar returns. There, the simple fact remains: most years will be mediocre and unmemorable ten years hence, and the older you get, the more of the "big" years turn out to be traumatic (deaths of parents, knee replacements, etc.).

Some of my most valuable formative experiences in horary were when I was running monthly sessions in Atlanta and Boston, because then, two weekends a month, we were running dozens of example charts a weekend from all my different students - not just the charts I personally received. This meant that any configuration going on would most likely result in multiple charts, and it would really be possible to evaluate different patterns.

It was clear planet after planet after planet that participating Triplicity simply couldn't rescue a planet from being peregrine. And yet - in natal, it seems to. The closest I've come to for an explanation of how or why this could be so is the free will factor. Imho, horary works so well, because it really tracks what will happen in a situation when nobody exercises free will - which is to say, 90-95% of the time. Free will is always possible: it's just too much work! But in natal, that 5-10% factor actually has a chance to accumulate over the lifetime.
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GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: USA

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Papretis wrote:
I just found something interesting when I was studying charts of homicides with ADB. I was looking at the group of 145 diurnal charts (because I wanted to take element rulers in sect into consideration) and I found out, that these people have peregrine Mars clearly more often that average. Mars is peregrine more often than in his fall or detriment - Lilly says that peregrine planets are worst and he would seem to have a point there.

Then I took every peregrine position separately: Mars in 0-10 Gemini, Mars in 20-25 Gemini, Mars in 0-20 Leo, Mars in 0-24 Virgo, Mars in 0-25 Sagittarius, Mars in 0-25 Aquarius and Mars in 0-20 Pisces (I didn't consider Mars in his fall or detriment peregrine at this point). But I got "positive" result only from Gemini, Virgo and Aquarius. Mars was less frequently in Leo, Sagittarius and Pisces in murderer's charts than in average charts.

What could be the reason for that? Using Ptolemy's (and only Ptolemy's) triplicities with all three triplicity rulers Mars is never peregrine in Fire or Water signs! Could that be the reason the murderers get clear peaks with Mars in certain degrees of Gemini and especially of Virgo and Aquarius, when compared to a control group calculated from occasional data?

This result changes my attitude to the participating rulers. It would seem that peregrine planets are more serious an issue than I had anticipated, but they're also less frequent.


Hello Papretis,

Though this is a while ago, I would like to mention that Maternus, I believe, mentions something to the effect that Mars in humane signs, i.e. air signs, makes men manslaughterers. I'll have to look that up when I get the chance.
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sigma4



Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 116

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Astrojin,

The scheme you suggest is very appealing indeed. But, excuse me, it is also too logical to be astrological, isn't it? Smile

Sigma
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 459

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Sigma4,

Yes... The scheme that I outlined is more for academic purpose only, very difficult to test as temperament cannot be evaluated by a single factor.

Too logical? Yes, it is ASTRO - LOGICAL, astrology and logical, he he Laughing
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4883
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It was clear planet after planet after planet that participating Triplicity simply couldn't rescue a planet from being peregrine. And yet - in natal, it seems to. The closest I've come to for an explanation of how or why this could be so is the free will factor. Imho, horary works so well, because it really tracks what will happen in a situation when nobody exercises free will - which is to say, 90-95% of the time. Free will is always possible: it's just too much work! But in natal, that 5-10% factor actually has a chance to accumulate over the lifetime
.

Thanks Lee,

It was really good of you to take the time to elaborate your position more fully here.

Incidentally, this is a different issue but I wondered if you might be able to share your practical experience of using almuten rulers as opposed to just domicile rulers in horary? This is another option you suggest in your book. I personally haven't got round to trying this out and wonder if it may over complicate my ability to come to a clear judgement.

Up to now my main study has been with Lilly and the other 17th century astrologers but they don't seem to have gone beyond domicile rulers for horary. However, I am now studying Bonatti and I am therefore becoming more interested in the medieval approach generally.
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 4673
Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
On April 29.2007, Papretis said:
So, a planet in his/her detriment but own term looks maybe beautiful and healthy outside, but is debilitated inside, a planet in his/her fall but own face is like someone who’s fallen from a high position, but is able to analyze what happened, a planet in his/her own detriment but own element is like someone in a bad position, who has got accustomed to it etc.

I have on record a case where the querent was signified by Venus in her detriment in her own terms in the sign of Scorpio. It would be possible to reckon that she would be in a place of deteriation and perill, but as it proved this was in capacity as a nurse. Mars in his own triplicity in Cancer shows a person of considerable resources and means (triplicity), although shown in a condition most inflicted and inflamed, as being mixed with the wrong people and in a situation of hostility.

Quote:
On April 28. 2007, Astrojin said:
Let's say that Saturn rules something in your chart and it happens to land in Aries (in Dorotheus trip rulership, Saturn is the participating ruler of fire signs). Let's say that Saturn is not in its own term (Saturn cannot be in its own face). So, Saturn is positied in its own trip rulership (alas participating trip rulership using Dorotheus scheme). Do I take Saturn being dignified in this position? I usually ignore this "dignity" as Saturn is also in Fall - Fall supersede the other lower dignities. The same goes for Saturn in Leo (Saturn is detriment in Leo). Some astrologers may argue that the "Fall" (or "detrimental") is cushioned by the trip dignity but I prefer to observe the dispositor of Saturn's condition (in this case Mars) to see the outcome of the fall.

This is a great passage with plenty of food for thought, thank you!

In comparison with some of the academic depth demonstrated in this tread, I am but a 'hammer and nails' guy in comparison. But I would like to submit some of my thoughts on the subject, assembled over a decade ago and which includes some ideas on receptions between minor essential dignities. I include this with some humble resignance in view of some of the scholarly brilliancy you people already have demonstated. http://www.astronor.com/dignities.htm Smile
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zuli



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 83

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew J. Bevan wrote:
I have on record a case where the querent was signified by Venus in her detriment in her own terms in the sign of Scorpio. It would be possible to reckon that she would be in a place of deteriation and perill, but as it proved this was in capacity as a nurse. Mars in his own triplicity in Cancer shows a person of considerable resources and means (triplicity), although shown in a condition most inflicted and inflamed, as being mixed with the wrong people and in a situation of hostility.

Even in term, face or triplicity, I think Venus feels very bad in Virgo, Scorpio and Aries. The worst plase for Mars is Cancer, then Libra and Taurus and then?


How do you arrange the signs for Mars and Venus? My proposal is:

Mars: Aries, Scorpio, Capricorn, Leo, Virgo, Gemini, Aquarius, Saggitarius, Pisces, Tarus, Libra, Cancer.

Venus: Tarus, Libra, Pisces, Cancer, Saggitarius, Aquarius, Leo, Capricorn, Gemini, Aries, Scorpio, Virgo.
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Even in term, face or triplicity, I think Venus feels very bad in Virgo, Scorpio and Aries.

I have done some 20 years study of the stock market. The degree of Venus' fall at 27 Virgo has struck me as having an effect, or rather significance, on the interest rates. This, I would explain, as being the price you have to pay for taking something out into existance...
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zuli



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew J. Bevan wrote:
The degree of Venus' fall at 27 Virgo has struck me as having an effect, or rather significance, on the interest rates. This, I would explain, as being the price you have to pay for taking something out into existance...

Yes, 27 Virgo is the very worst place for Venus.
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patzone123



Joined: 12 Jun 2017
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Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

astrojin wrote:
Hello,

Quote:
Quote:
Fire - Sun,
Air - Jupiter,
Water - Moon,
Earth – Saturn

It really is a pretty scheme. Simple, no need for convoluted thinking. It is closely tied to temperament – it even looks meaningful.


Well, if we are looking for triplicity - element - temperament agreement then let me suggest another variation:-

Fire - Mars
Air - Jupiter
Water - Venus
Earth - Saturn.

I leave the luminaries out of the scheme because the luminaries (sun and moon) are the king and queen of a chart (similar reason as to why there no sun's or moon's terms). The 5 planets (Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn) are the "agents" of destiny. Even, in Chinese Astrology and Philosophy - there are 5 elements corresponding to the 5 planets (and this is probably why they had/have 5 elements). Jupiter = abundance = wood element, Mars = fire (what else!), Saturn = earth, Venus = metal, Mercury = water. In chinese philosophy, there is no air element. This is taken up by water (water in liquid form = water, water in vapor form = air).

But, in Western system (or other then the Chinese) we have only 4 elements. One of the planets must then, not rule any element. This falls to Mercury who is by nature = "variable" i.e. not male not female, not diurnal not nocturnal, ...

So,
Saturn: planetary nature = cold + dry. The corresponding element (cold + dry) = earth. The coressponding temperament is then melancholic (Saturnine).

Jupiter: planetary nature = hot + wet. The corresponding element (hot + wet) = air (hot is moving and active, wet is fluid and connecting, combine then and we get air). The coressponding temperament is then sanguine (Jovial!).

Mars: planetary nature = hot + dry. The corresponding element (hot + dry) = fire. The corresponding temperament is the choleric (fiery).

Venus: planetary nature = cold + wet. The corresponding element (cold + wet) = water. The corresponding temperament is the phlegmatic.

So each agent of destiny (excluding Mercury) is given one element to rule, one pair of qualities and one temperament.

*** Note: some classical astrlogers put Venus = hot + wet...


Mars and saturn were considered to be malefic planets so they were placed in sects opposite to their nature to help moderate their malefic effects. I would propose another scheme switching saturn and mars:

Saturn - fire
Jupiter - air
Venus - water
Mars - earth
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