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Robert Mugabe - Why is he still around!
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Sue W



Joined: 14 Dec 2003
Posts: 3
Location: Klerksdorp, South Africa

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 8:15 pm    Post subject: Robert Mugabe - Why is he still around! Reply with quote

Has anyone got a chart for our friend Bob? I know he is not making the news much around the world but the news filtering across the border is pretty awful to say the least. I would love to have a look at his chart. Can anyone help?

Sue W
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: England

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We don’t have a time of birth for Mugabe, we only know that he was born on 21st Feb 1924. His noon positions are shown here against the chart for Zimbabwe (Source: Nick Campion’s ‘Book of World Horoscopes’ p.448 - "Zimbabwe received its independence from Great Britain at 00.00 hrs. on 18 April 1980”) Zimbabwe= inner wheel / Mugabe = outer wheel.



His Moon falls in Zimbabwe’s 8th house and his Saturn sits on the midheaven bring a depressing influence for his country.

By transit Jupiter is currently on the opposition of Mugabe’s Uranus, Saturn is on his Pluto; Neptune is on his Mercury, Uranus is transiting his Sun, Pluto is on his Mars - the Sun recently crossed this as he gained attention through the split with the EU. This looks like a very volatile and politically tense period indeed.
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Sue W



Joined: 14 Dec 2003
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Location: Klerksdorp, South Africa

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Deb
Thanks for the reply. I'm so frustrated not being able to read charts, so that they make any sense to me. I am spending as much time as I can reading and studying but the brain seems to go on strike after a while and stops taking anything in!!

I truly hope for the sake of people living under the dreadful conditions in Zim at present that something happens soon. I saw in the local paper here this morning that Bishop Desmond Tutu has made a stand and stood up and put our president Thabo Mbeki down for endorsing Robert Mugabe and trying to get Zim back into the commonwealth. Hopefully this is the push that is needed for our government to realize that something must be done about the huge human rights violations going on in that country.

How does one go about getting peoples (ie presidents etc.) birth details?

Sue
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lois Rodden’s famous people astrodatabank http://astrodatabank.com/Nms_a.htm is always a good place to start. Or you can try the Celebrity Astro*Search site at http://thenewage.com/resources/lore/astro_search.asp?orig=

I did a google search for Mugabe, putting in his name and ‘born’. He has quite a few profiles on the web but no one knows his time of birth. Either he’s kept it private or doesn’t know it himself.

Astrologer Steve Judd has an astrological commentary online about Zimbabwe and Mugabe, but unfortunately he made a public prediction that Mugabe would be ousted out of presidency by May 2003.
Sad
http://www.stevejudd.com/articals/newsitem.asp?ItemID=42
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Sue W



Joined: 14 Dec 2003
Posts: 3
Location: Klerksdorp, South Africa

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Deb
Thanks for the info I will try those sites. I guess from what you say that it is leaving yourself wide open when one makes exact predictions. Would you make a prediction or give a more vague answer to a client?
Sue W
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Deb
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Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that some things are clearly predictable and some things are too dependent on other factors and the course of action taken. I mainly work with horary and that’s a much more limited set of conditions than when you are dealing with political, mundane astrology. In horary it is much easier to reliably predict that a certain result will follow a certain course of action. But I don’t believe in ‘fated astrology’ and see the astrologer’s role as opening the options up by exploring other courses of action or getting the client to see things through a different perspective. It’s a big issue and I only have time for a quick reply – I could write a book on my views on prediction and still have to admit that my mind is full of questions relating to the role of fate, there are elements of it that will probably always remain puzzling to me.

I don’t do much political forecasting. I’m a bit mixed with my views on it and probably don’t have enough experience to say anything that should carry weight. But personally, I can’t see the point of making a statement like “Robert Mugabe will not be President of Zimbabwe by the second week of May 2003”. There obviously was astrological justification for his judgement, but it’s not explained. This is the sort of stuff that I see too often in the media and I always think it is embarrassing the way the astrologer inevitably follows it up with the excuse that sometimes the effects of transits are delayed. If they know that, then why do they make an issue of the date in the first place? I’ve moaned about this before because it happens often.

It’s a pity because that astrologer looks quite credible and has probably published a lot of sensible and sensitive views on Zimbabwe. I just think it would have been better for him and everyone else if he’d stuck to writing a review of the problems drawing upon astrological insights and focussed upon how mundane astrological factors were likely to manifest within the context of those problems.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2684
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

although this thread is 14 years old, i thought i would renew some interest in it, given the recent developments in zimbabwe the past week..

as it turns out, hindsight is a lot more informative, then foresight some of the time.. mugabe has even come out today making no mention of his resignation.. he was placed under house arrest by the military this past wednesday.. perhaps the transit of the chart ruler - saturn, into the 12th house reflects this.. the moving transit of saturn trine uranus certainly hits on the chart we have for zimbabwe here..

clearly the personal links between his chart and the chart we have for zimbabwe are strong and pronounced.. i would start by pointing out the close connection involving the moons nodal axis involving both charts and work out from their... the transiting nodal axis recently passed thru this area and continues to move towards the direction of mugabes neptune suggesting a cloud of uncertainty for him at this moment in time.. the slow transit of uranus sits close to his natal sun, while it's movement into taurus in 2018 will oppose the position of his saturn which sits so prominently on the midheaven of the chart we have for zimbabwe.. this would seem to cement the increased instability and question around who zimbabwe moves forward here in late 2017...

i haven't done any exhaustive study of either his or the chart for zimbabwe.. perhaps i or someone else would like to do this?

here is a relevant chart for the gov't of mugabe 1980 from marjorie orr's site..
https://i0.wp.com/www.star4cast.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/mug-govt.jpg
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you look at the chart for zimbabwe, you will note how the saturn/neptune in the natal chart have directed - solar arc directed - to the sun/midheaven part of the chart for here in 2017.. the sa midheaven is exactly opp natal moon - the 6th house ruler, which as i understand it - rules and connects to the military in mundane astrology.. thus we see military rule for the moment... not sure how long it runs for..

the profection lord is jupiter - pisces.. in the solar return chart, jupiter is conjunct the midheaven, while involved in an opposition to uranus, both squaring onto the pluto in cap rising... the ascendant is thus in the 12th house of the natal chart and pointed to the 12th, with the moon in the sr also in cap in the 12th of both.. jupiter is in virgo on the 8th cusp in the natal chart. the sr north node is exactly conjunct natal jupiter as well - just as it is via mugabes chart back to the zimbabwe chart. (the position of his north node is the same as it is in the solar return chart for zimbabwe here).. in mugabes chart the sun is conjunct the south node.. this is reinforced again via the transiting nodal axis here as well.. it is interesting to think of south node conjunct sun as someone willing to sacrifice their own self for others, as this certainly isn't how mugabe is portrayed in the western media!
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4924
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
Quote:
Although this thread is 14 years old, i thought i would renew some interest in it, given the recent developments in zimbabwe the past week..


A nice piece of recycling James! Thanks.

James_M wrote:

Quote:
here is a relevant chart for the gov't of mugabe 1980 from marjorie orr's site.. https://i0.wp.com/www.star4cast.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/mug-govt.jpg


This isn't a timed chart. Its for 4th March 1980 which was the date of the pre-independence election held which Mugabe and his Zanu party won. But Mugabe didn't assume power on this date. So its not technically the start date of the Mugabe government. Although this election result gave Mugabe the democratic mandate to form a government.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/4/newsid_2515000/2515145.stm

The official independence of Zimbabwe marking the end of British rule came the following month on April 18th 1980. This date is celebrated today across the country as national independence day.

From Wikipedia:

Quote:
The country gained official independence as Zimbabwe on 18 April 1980. The government held independence celebrations in Rufaro stadium in Salisbury, the capital. Lord Christopher Soames, the last Governor of Southern Rhodesia, watched as Charles, Prince of Wales, gave a farewell salute and the Rhodesian Signal Corps played "God Save the Queen". Many foreign dignitaries also attended, including Prime Minister Indira Gandhi of India, President Shehu Shagari of Nigeria, President Kenneth Kaunda of Zambia, President Seretse Khama of Botswana, and Prime Minister Malcolm Fraser of Australia, representing the Commonwealth of Nations. Bob Marley sang 'Zimbabwe', a song he wrote, at the government's invitation in a concert at the country's independence festivities.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zimbabwe

So personally, I would work with this chart for Zimbabwe rather than Orrs proposed chart. I haven't managed to track down a time for the official handing over ceremony but I would suggest working with a Noon chart unless a more specific time is identified.

Update: Just noticed Marjorie Orr has switched to using the chart for April 18th 1980! She is going with 12.00am but for the reasons stated above I prefer a day chart which coincides with the formal ceremony transferring power. However, many countries to come into existence legally at midnight by legislation. So perhaps Marjorie Orr is right.

https://i1.wp.com/www.star4cast.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/zim.jpg





Looking at transits to the Zimbabwe Independence chart we have Tr Uranus over the radix Sun, Tr Saturn trine the radix Sun, Tr Saturn trine radix Mars, Tr Mercury Sq Saturn, Tr Mercury Conj Neptune. Tr Pluto contra-antiscion radix Venus.

Below is the Zimbabwe independence chart and the solar arcs for Mugabe's resignation. SA Saturn opposing the radix Sun. SA Neptune Sq the radix Sun. SA Venus Sq Pluto. SA Ceres Sq Saturn. SA Uranus is in the first degree of Capricorn the sign on the 7th house cusp.



Mark
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2684
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark,

thanks for chiming in!

maybe i need to chuck this nic campion book in the fire then...'''zimbabwe received it independence from britain at 00.00hrs on 18th april 1980.''' it is the chart with 1 aq rising which deb used up above, but if you think the cancer rising chart is more relevant, so be it!

as for the chart from marjorie - march 4th 1980 - for what she referred to as i recall as the mugabe gov't chart, it would seem to be an important date and that is why i shared it... indeed it is not a timed chart as you point out!!

i don't follow marjorie orr that much. she doesn't like astro, or feedback generally, that runs contrary to her viewpoint... one time she accused me of everything revolving around saudi arabia or something.. hey - a stopped clock is right at least twice a day!

what next?
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James,

Quote:
maybe i need to chuck this nic campion book in the fire then...'''zimbabwe received it independence from britain at 00.00hrs on 18th april 1980.''' it is the chart with 1 aq rising which deb used up above, but if you think the cancer rising chart is more relevant, so be it!


I dont have access to my astrology books during the weekdays as I stay in another city for work except at weekends. My main point was proposing 18th April 1980 rather than the chart for 4th of March you initially put up via Marjorie Orr.

If you have the time I think its better doing some research of your own rather than just automatically accepting everything Campion or Marjorie Orr propose as gospel. Just as you often do on middle eastern charts here.

But come to think of it midnight makes sense as it will haven taken effect with a UK Act of Parliament which always commence at midnight.

Although, there probably was a transfer ceremony too. I know Campion usually gives a lot of emphasis to such public ceremonies. But if you check my comments I never had a time for this.

In any case all the transit and Solar arcs I put up still apply even if you have different angles and Moon degree using the midnight time.

Mark
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark, i think it is unfair for you to say what you did here..

i went with the chart that deb is using and others have been using for zimbabwe.. i didn't just rely on nic campion - although he is probably the best source for doing so, and i definitely at no time suggested the march chart was more significant then the one being used for zimbabwe - the april chart... not sure why you say all this, other then to cast my comments in some superficial light, which again - seems really unfair..

here is a link to marjorie's nov 15th article on zimbabwe with the march chart i shared.. i saw no need to post the midnight april chart, as i said due the fact it is already on this thread via debs post... it is also contained in the link below with a comment on solar arcs and transits too fwiw..

http://star4cast.ca/zimbabwe-wresting-control-from-mugabe/
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
mark, i think it is unfair for you to say what you did here..


Ok. Now you have clarified your position I can see simply we had our wires crossed.

I frankly, never read the earlier part of the thread from 14 years ago. I saw you discussing ''the chart for Zimbabwe'' and assumed you were making your own contribution based on the link you provided with a chart and the following comments:


Quote:
i haven't done any exhaustive study of either his or the chart for zimbabwe.. perhaps i or someone else would like to do this?

here is a relevant chart for the gov't of mugabe 1980 from marjorie orr's site..

https://i0.wp.com/www.star4cast.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/mug-govt.jpg


I assumed this was the chart you were discussing!

Moreover, when I made the point that I didn't favour the 4th March chart for Zimbabwe you came back with the following comment in your reply:

Quote:
as for the chart from marjorie - march 4th 1980 - for what she referred to as i recall as the mugabe gov't chart, it would seem to be an important date and that is why i shared it... indeed it is not a timed chart as you point out!!


I assumed you were still using that chart but I had thought you made a mistake in thinking it was a timed chart.

My bad I guess for never reading the start of the thread I suppose. That might have made your position clearer to me.

In any case its a simple misunderstanding James. No need to get worked up about it.

Quote:
i went with the chart that deb is using and others have been using for zimbabwe.. i didn't just rely on nic campion - although he is probably the best source for doing so, and i definitely at no time suggested the march chart was more significant then the one being used for zimbabwe - the april chart... not sure why you say all this, other then to cast my comments in some superficial light, which again - seems really unfair..


Ok. Again you do seem to be getting over sensitive about this. Do keep in mind this isn't a PM discussion between just you and I. I know this forum can be a quiet backwater but it is still a public forum. You habitually seem to assume every passing comment is aimed at you personally ! I was making a general comment that I think its good to do ones own research on charts. If there was any implied criticism I didn't have you in mind. I enjoy doing a bit of historical digging and finding fresh angles on charts. I see you as rather similar. Hence I complemented you on the fact you had done so much original research on middle eastern charts. You have become quite an authority on that area. Maybe I could have worded it better but I was rushing off to work. Frankly James you seem determined to find imagined slights and insults lurking everywhere. Honestly, I give up!

Mark
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks mark,

i can see why after you said all that.. i could have made myself more clear by pointing out i was using the chart that deb had posted, but i didn't.. i only wanted to add that march chart as well, as it seemed like an additional important date.. i have only worked with the midnight april 1980 chart!

and, i think you are right about my sensitivity, but here is something to ponder - yes, i have moon in scorpio rising with sun in aries - always ready to pounce on some comment when it doesn't have anything to do with me - i agree, but it is interesting how you also have this position, except it is descending, instead of rising!!! we are a good match for one another!!! i have thought about this a lot in terms of our interaction.. maybe you have too!! on a personal note - i keep on thinking about the transit of pluto and how it is impacting the ruler of my chart here as well... and, we also have some contacts in that same area.. i guess this is pm ot stuff for sure...

where do you see zimbabwe going in the next few years? it looks like the situation is one of great uncertainty in the short term - 1-2 years... hopefully zimbabwe will not be under the leadership of some strong man, but it seems like this guy in the wings is exactly that..

my thinking is this : new leader - military guy and a type of military rule... the country hands over itself to corporations willing to rape and pillage and the typical front of 'democracy' is pitched with an election where they elect the military guy... that is what i get from saturn in 8th, moving to conjunct midheaven by solar arc, sa moon- uranus moving to connect with sun, sa mars - moving to conjunct pluto and a few other things like that... lets see how it plays out... if the western press is cheering, i generally view that as a bad sign, being the contrarian i am..
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emmerson mnangagwa was sworn in as new leader today at 1142am.. i note marjorie mentioning it as 'more of the same'... i actually think it is worse..
http://star4cast.ca/emmerson-mnangagwa-sworn-in-more-of-the-same/

here is the chart for the time of the event..

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