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Lost bracelet
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:41 pm    Post subject: Lost bracelet Reply with quote

Hi all,
a couple of nights ago I went out to celebrate a friend's birthday. We visited about 4 pubs and I got home around midnight. Then yesterday afternoon I noticed that a pewter/chrome bracelet that I always wear on my left wrist was missing. I racked my brains to remember if I was still wearing it when I got home from the pub but I just don't recall. I hasten to add that I wasn't drunk when I got home, I walked back a mile and a half and was nothing more than tired. I have searched the flat with no success and I've even phoned two of the pubs but it hasn't been handed in. I don't have the number of the other two pubs or the taxis we took so I've not been able to contact them as yet.
Anyway last night I decided to draw up a horary to try to get some clues as to the whereabouts of the bracelet. Here's the data:

"Where is the missing bracelet?"
14th July 2007
19.32 hrs BST
Birkenhead. 53N24', 03W02'

Asc: 22 Sag' 34; MC 29 Libra 16'; Moon 25 Cancer 22.

I just want to say at the outset that I don't enjoy doing missing object horaries. It seems to me that there are so many variables to consider that one is just as likely to get the location wrong as right.
Anyway, the chart appeared to be radical: Sag rises and the Planetary Hour ruler is the Sun, so there is agreement there.
The next thing I noticed was that the Moon - my co-ruler as well as natural sig' of missing items - is combust and making no application before she leaves Cancer. This looks like a bad indication to me, suggesting that the bracelet could well be in someone else's hands, or possibly trapped somewhere and well hidden. I think this lunar condition also describes how powerless I felt when I first discovered it missing. I hold the bracelet to have great sentimental value and I've been quite upset for the past couple of days.

Ok, I needed to see if there were any signs of recovery in the chart. To me it seems logical to focus on that first and then look for the location. After all, if you know the object will never be recovered it doesn't really matter where it is.
I took the 2nd house, its ruler and Venus to symbolise the bracelet. The 2nd house has the end of Capricorn on the cusp (Regiomontanus) and here Saturn is in the 8th house (ouch!) and in detriment. Venus is also in the 8th house (double ouch!) and has just entered her fall in Virgo, which is also paradoxically her triplicity.
Neither Venus, Saturn or the Moon will make an aspect to my sig, Jupiter - who is in the 12th, retrograde in Sagittarius. Further, two of them are well inside the 8th house while the Moon is almost on the cusp. None of these testimonies look encouraging for recovery.
The only encouraging link is the applying trine from this very damaged and afflicted Saturn to the Part of Fortune, which is angular, conjunct the Ascendant at 25 Sag' 59. The P.O.F. is received by my significator, Jupiter into dignity, and Saturn is in the terms of Jupiter.
My quandary is this: Is the applying trine from that weak Saturn to the P.O.F. on the Ascendant sufficient to promise recovery? I'm not convinced, quite frankly, but I'd appreciate other views.
Also, could the angular P.O.F., received by my sig, suggest that the bracelet is indeed in my home, rather than some distance away in a pub or a taxi, or somebody's back pocket?

Like I said, I bloody hate "where is it?" horaries!
Thanks guys...

Cheers,
Pete
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 764
Location: Rawalpindi/Islamabad (Pakistan)

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pete--

I agree that lost items horary is the most difficult as it requires higher level of precision than demanded in another questions.

Lets check this horary for arguments of recovery or non-recovery. I refer to Deborah Houlding's article http://www.skyscript.co.uk/wit.html

Arguments for Recovery

-Saturn L2 applies by Trine to Fortuna in Ascendant

-Moon applies by an opposition to cusp of 2nd house---not a favourable indication as it puts Moon on cusp of 8H and opposition might suggest a lot of search or trouble

-Moon is in Cancer. So, her dispositor is Moon itself...we can dis regard this rule.

-The Sun and Moon are conjunct. But they are not aspecting each other. Moon (Significator of lost item) is combust but comming out. Anyway they are not in trine to 2H. So, this rule is not favourable.

-Only Fortuna is placed in ascendant. Moon, Saturn are not in 1H or 2H. Further more, Jupiter and Venus are not in 1H or 2H or 4H. We find Mars in 4H conjunct 5H. So, this rule does not seem helpful.

-Moon is not aspecting a fortune.

-Moon and 2nd ruler are not angular.

Arguments against Recovery

-Moon and Saturn are far from Jupiter.

-Moon is effectively Void of Course.

-The Moon is in 7H conjunct 8H. Saturn and Venus are in 8H. It might not be stolen. But it certainly fell among the items which are considered waste etc. I say so because of 8th house prominence.

-Moon is combust.


Pete! it seems that the bracelet is lost. But your updates would be valuable. I might be missing something. About Fortuna in ascendant. Well i am not in favour of fortuna in ascendant in case of lost item horaries. Because Moon signifies lost item and Fortuna in ascendant most of the time means that Moon is very close to Sun and may be combust. I would like to see Fortuna in 2H.

A ray of hope could be that Moon is not entering combustion but is comming out of combustion. So, lets hope for the best. Laughing
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Morpheus

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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pete

Quote:
My quandary is this: Is the applying trine from that weak Saturn to the P.O.F. on the Ascendant sufficient to promise recovery? I'm not convinced, quite frankly, but I'd appreciate other views.


I have never found Fortuna to be particularly helpful in missing objects charts myself, so thatís one thing I tend to ignore anyway. Its angular position on the ascendant looks like a good thing, but as Gryf says you always get that when the Moon is combust, so actually itís never a good thing in a missing object chart because combustion of the Moon is an argument against the object being found. The fact that your significator is in trine to the ascendant is a better argument for recovery, but itís the only good point out of a whole collection of indications that make the prospects of recovery unlikely. I think your own assessment says it all. The 2nd house ruler, being in detriment and badly placed by house, and the Moon offering no support, looks like you will probably have to accept this as a loss.

Just one thing that might be worth mentioning, in case it triggers a thought Ė who or what might the Sun signify? The Moon is separating from the Sun, which can describe where the bracelet was left, and the Sun disposes the 2nd-ruler. But as you point out, when the indications of recovery are so poor, you might be knocking your head against a brick wall by trying to read much more out of this chart.

Hope it turns up anyway. Good luck.
Deb
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Deb and Gryff,
I just wanted to quickly let you know that the bracelet is now back on my wrist!
It turns out that a friend of mine saw the bracelet slip off my wrist and fall to the floor as I was standing at the bar of the local pub on Friday night. He picked it up, meaning to give it back to me but somehow it slipped his mind and he forgot. Anyway I called him on Monday to ask him for the number of the pub and he told me that the bracelet was in his pocket and he'd drop by with it when he had the chance. Accordingly he called in yesterday and I now have the bracelet back.

Now this doesn't make any sense does it? If we're going by the rules laid down for missing objects then there's no way I should have the bracelet back but I do, so what have we missed? Where in the chart does it say that the bracelet is in the hands of a friend and would be returned to me within four days?
I do have one theory that *might* explain the bracelet's return but I don't think you'll find this move in C.A. Once again it has to do with antiscia.

In this chart notice that Venus (sig' of jewellery) is at 0*00' of Virgo. This puts the antiscion degree of Venus at 0*00' of Taurus. The Moon is moving out of combustion and the moment she reaches 0*00' Leo not only does she leave combustion but she immediately contacts the antiscion degree of Venus by square. This move connects my co-significator to the natural significator of the bracelet. There are no other indications in this chart that would explain the return of the bracelet unless we accept the applying trine from Saturn to the P.O.F., and if we do then surely we'd expect such an afflicted Saturn to describe a bracelet that returns in some way damaged? The bracelet is whole and intact.
I appreciate that applying squares to an antiscion degree might seem like stretching a point but the fact is that I now have the bracelet back. The horary isn't wrong; we just missed something!
Thanks to you both for your contributions and help. Have either of you got any further insights?

Cheers,
Pete
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pete

Glad you got the bracelet back. There is also the application from Mercury to Venus by sextile but that is not something I would have given much notice to unless it was just you and another person out together. I donít use antiscia relationships much in horary either, but I know that you do, so you possibly get better results with them than I do. Iím still reluctant to give the emphasis to the POF here, but the 2nd-ruler trine the ascendant is a well reported positive indication. Maybe that deserved a little more consideration too?

One thing I am interested in Ė do you think that the Sun describes the place where the bracelet left your possession or the friend that picked it up? As the last contact of the Moon it ought to, and I have recovered objects before based on separating aspects describing where the loss happened, rather than future indications of recovery. One thing that is interesting in this chart is that although the 8th house emphasis described the bracelet in someone elseís possession, the significators lack the strong affliction by malefics or the 7th house ruler that we see when something is deliberately stolen, so that was never a prospect. The one thing that really puzzles me is the isolation of your main significator, and how that seems to be outside of all the action. As you say, the chart wasnít obviously promising but it wasnít devoid of potential either, so very good to look at in hindsight.

Thanks for the update,
Deb
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Glad you got the bracelet back.

Hi Deb,
yeah, me too!

Quote:
There is also the application from Mercury to Venus by sextile


Actually that doesn't take. Venus goes retro on July 28th at 2*VIR 57' and Mercury never actually makes contact.

Quote:
Iím still reluctant to give the emphasis to the POF here, but the 2nd-ruler trine the ascendant is a well reported positive indication. Maybe that deserved a little more consideration too?


You might be right. I ignored it because I believed the aspect was separating, but in real time the Ascendant is actually applying to Saturn, so maybe I just didn't see it right?

Quote:
One thing I am interested in Ė do you think that the Sun describes the place where the bracelet left your possession or the friend that picked it up?


I have a feeling it was describing my friend John, whose birthday it was that night. He could quite easily be shown by the Sun in Cancer.

Quote:
As the last contact of the Moon it ought to, and I have recovered objects before based on separating aspects describing where the loss happened, rather than future indications of recovery.


Really? I'll bear that in mind Deb, thanks.
Quote:

The one thing that really puzzles me is the isolation of your main significator, and how that seems to be outside of all the action. As you say, the chart wasnít obviously promising but it wasnít devoid of potential either, so very good to look at in hindsight.


It's this kind of situation where we have the potential to learn so much isn't it? We know the outcome and we can check the chart against it.
I'm also puzzled by the isolation of my primary sig, and yet I think it more appropriate if the recovery is indeed shown by the application of the Moon to the antiscion degree of Venus, as I am very emotionally connected to the bracelet and you can imagine how I was feeling when I got it back!
Quote:


Thanks for the update,


You're welcome Smile
Pete
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb Wrote:
Quote:
... the 2nd-ruler trine the ascendant is a well reported positive indication. Maybe that deserved a little more consideration too?


How about considering the fact that the ASC (querent) is in the terms and face of Saturn (L2)? That together with the applying trine might indicate a positive, strong querent-object link and reunion, enough to give the trine more consideration.

The POF is also in the terms [Egyptian in this case] and face of Saturn, but consideration of the ASC might be sufficient.
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 764
Location: Rawalpindi/Islamabad (Pakistan)

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pete--

Congratulations. Thumbs up

I agree with Deb and KIrk that perhaps Saturn-L2 --Trine with Asc is a positive indication. Saturn receives Asc by Terms and face and Ascendant receives Saturn by Terms.

One thing more. In this particular case perhaps Moon was also important. Saturn Trine POF by Trine in AScendant(I am still reluctant to accept POF in ascendant). Now, this could only happen if Moon is in combustion. but perhaps Moon is not that helpless IF

-She is separating from conjunction
-She is in her own house and face and in exaltation and terms of benefics.
-Sun is cadent from his own house i.e Leo


Gryffindor
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Morpheus

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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 588

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb:
Quote:
I donít use antiscia relationships much in horary either, but I know that you do, so you possibly get better results with them than I do.


OK I"m confused about this. Suppose I did a chart and it was showing perfection through an antiscia relationship but not much else... Now if I sent this chart to Deb for judgement, she would say "No", but if I sent it to Pete, he would say "Yes", because he uses Antiscia and Deb doesn't. So not sure how this can work both ways?? Confused

Pete:
Quote:
I hold the bracelet to have great sentimental value and I've been quite upset for the past couple of days.

Sir Peter, you know how impressed I am by your astrological provess...but frankly, I think you're pushing it a bit with the antiscia thing!!
This is almost as bad as that asteroid stuff you posted - was that a couple of years ago???..... (...grin....)

Wherefore such sentiment, such attachment, such concern.....!! So tell me, who gave you this precious bracelet? Wink
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
OK I"m confused about this. Suppose I did a chart and it was showing perfection through an antiscia relationship but not much else... Now if I sent this chart to Deb for judgement, she would say "No", but if I sent it to Pete, he would say "Yes", because he uses Antiscia and Deb doesn't. So not sure how this can work both ways?? Confused


Hi T Smile
actually Deb said she doesn't use them "much" and as a matter of fact I don't use them much either; only if I see no perfection coming from elsewhere. While it's true that there is the applying trine from the Ascendant to Saturn, (#2nd), I didn't give it that much credence because Saturn is in such a weak state and I wasn't sure it would be able to deliver the goods (pun intended). The Moon has more energy to do something, in my opinion, even though it is combust. For one thing, it is in dignity and for another it is moving out of combustion and therefore gaining more strength hour by hour. The Sun may hold it at the time of the question but it cannot continue to hold it and I think this is an important point to remember when looking at combustion: is combustion deepening or weakening?
The Moon would soon be leaving combustion and making an immediate aspect to the antiscion degree of Venus. I wouldn't have looked at that aspect at all if there had been more convincing testimonies elsewhere, and given the fact that the bracelet did indeed return, we need to understand what the chart is telling us about that.

Quote:
...frankly, I think you're pushing it a bit with the antiscia thing!!
This is almost as bad as that asteroid stuff you posted - was that a couple of years ago???..... (...grin....)


Yep I think it was. You sound like the Inquisition telling Galileo that he was way off base claiming that the earth revolves around the sun and not the other way around *grin*
Seriously I'm not claiming to be Galileo, but neither am I the first horary astrologer to take antiscia seriously either. It's a useful tool to have in your box and worth keeping an eye on, is all I'm saying Smile

Quote:
Wherefore such sentiment, such attachment, such concern.....!! So tell me, who gave you this precious bracelet? Wink


Well it wasn't my mother, let me put it that way Wink

Cheers,
Pete
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
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Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Congratulations. Thumbs up

Thanks Gryff!

Quote:
I agree with Deb and KIrk that perhaps Saturn-L2 --Trine with Asc is a positive indication. Saturn receives Asc by Terms and face and Ascendant receives Saturn by Terms.

True, but is reception to a very weak significator enough to give that significator the energy to find its way home? Lilly says not. (C.A. 299. #18 )
Quote:

One thing more. In this particular case perhaps Moon was also important. Saturn Trine POF by Trine in AScendant(I am still reluctant to accept POF in ascendant). Now, this could only happen if Moon is in combustion. but perhaps Moon is not that helpless IF

-She is separating from conjunction
-She is in her own house and face and in exaltation and terms of benefics.
-Sun is cadent from his own house i.e Leo


I've been thinking along those lines myself. Firstly, if we have a P.O.F. in the first house conjunct the Asc, shouldn't that lend a certain strength to the P.O.F? A degree of swiftness to the resolution? The fact that this position can only be obtained when the Moon is separating from combustion should therefore imply something about the Moon's current state; perhaps that things are coming more under the querent's control?
Perhaps if the Sun is essentially weak and Moon has strength by dignity or exaltation she will behave like a powerful queen who is escaping her captor. Worth a thought perhaps.

Cheers,
Pete
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Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
True, but is reception to a very weak significator enough to give that significator the energy to find its way home?


But is Saturn really very weak? It's a diurnal planet in a diurnal chart, placed with the Sun diurnally above the earth, and is in a diurnal sign. It's direct and fast. Just being in detriment in masculine/positive Leo feels different activity-wise for Saturn than if it had been in detriment in feminine/negative Cancer. A tight trine in active fire signs could have been enough to add a good push back to the home wrist. Maybe Lilly wouldnít have considered the element of the signs involved, but it seems natural to do so. It's a way of seeing what type of trine we have. A Fire trine here, with Sun as planet of the hour and dispositor of Saturn, and as triplicity ruler of ASC, Saturn, (and POF).
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Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 454

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

What if we used the 5th house -- a bracelet IS a piece of jewelry and (I'm guessing) given to Pete by someone "special", i.e, a romantic interest.

Then Venus becomes sig of bracelet and she applies to the square of L.1. Venus's position in the 8th and Jupiter's in the 12th is descriptive of how upset Pete felt about losing it. Also Mars is L.11 and so signifies Pete's friend, in the 5th house of the bracelet and he had it safe and sound ... Mars is well received by the bracelet being in Venus's sign, triplicity and term.

Would this be a kosher approach do you think?

Tara
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 764
Location: Rawalpindi/Islamabad (Pakistan)

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete:

Quote:
True, but is reception to a very weak significator enough to give that significator the energy to find its way home? Lilly says not. (C.A. 299. #18 )



Saturn was not working as effectively.

-Your friend picks it up in a pub and fails to deliver you.

-He does not respond unless and untill you call him.

Your friend must have been well aware that bracelet in most of the cases (even in our part of the world) holds a sentimental value.

The bracelet was not found by your searching ( i dont count call to a friend as a search). It might explain the reason why significators were not aspecting L1. L2 aspects Ascendant and POF. And it was delivered to you at home. Wink
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But is Saturn really very weak? It's a diurnal planet in a diurnal chart, placed with the Sun diurnally above the earth, and is in a diurnal sign.

In other words, Saturn is perfectly in sect, or to use the correct term, "hayz". Robert Hand, in his excellent booklet on planetary sect, "Night & Day", tells us that Renaissance authors such as Gauricus considered hayz to be a powerful accidental dignity, yet somehow more modern horary practice hardly acknowledges planetary sect at all. I've always found this to be a curious omission and in my work I consider hayz to be at least as favourable as appropriate orientality or occidentality.
The main reason I didn't use the Saturn trine to the P.O.F. was because I believed that Saturn's position in detriment detracted sufficiently from it being in hayz, but hey, maybe it didn't after all and Saturn had enough accidental dignity through being completely in sect to return the bracelet to my wrist.
Excellent observation Kirk. Thanks!

cheers,
Pete
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