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Seven Deadly Sins
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
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Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:41 pm    Post subject: Seven Deadly Sins Reply with quote

Does anybody know if medieval astrologers connected the seven deadly sins to the seven planets and if they did, how did they do it?
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amelia



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
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Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've wondered this myself before - it seems too much of a coincidence to be ignored. Yet I'm not aware of an astrology text where someone makes the direct association- presumably astrologer-monks would be the most likely.

Having said that, I tried to match them up once and came unstuck because the meaning of some of the sins have shifted slightly and some now overlap a bit so a one-to-one match is harder than I expected.
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Kim Farnell



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

De Vore gives:

Sins: Pride, Jupiter; covetousness, Saturn; lust, Venus; wrath, Mars; gluttony, Mercury; envy, Moon; indolence, Sun.

Virtues: Chastity, Moon; love, Venus; courage, Mars; faith, Jupiter; hope, Sun; wisdom, Mercury; and prudence, Saturn.
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mattG



Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does Devore mention the four cardinal virtues? Libra equates with justice well enough and and how about Aries for fortitude/courage. That leaves temperance/moderation and prudence/wisdom.
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Gem



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury associated with gluttony?? Confused
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
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Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Kim! That is one list, I'm wondering, if there is different lists from different authors...

Oscar Ichazo connected the seven deadly sins with enneagram types like this: 1 - anger (wrath), 2 - pride, 4 - envy, 5 - avarice (covetousness), 7 - gluttony, 8 - lust, 9 - indolence (sloth) http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/history.asp .

If one puts planets on the enneagram circle according to De Vore's system, there emerges an interesting symmetrical figure. If the missing points 3 and 6 are given to the Lunar Nodes (North and South Node respectively), the enneagram type meanings correlate quite well with the Indian meanings for the Nodes (Rahu and Ketu).
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Kim Farnell



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't totally convinced by de Vore either - but it was the first list I had to hand.

Quote:
Does Devore mention the four cardinal virtues?


Not that I can see - as far as I remember the cardinal virtues match up with the humours, but damned if I can find a reference at the moment.

Quote:
Oscar Ichazo connected the seven deadly sins with enneagram types like this:


Yes, that is interesting, if a little brain scrambling. I was trying to hang onto medieval in this context though.

This will probably answer a lot of questions on the planetary connections with the vices/virtues - couldn't find it when I first reponded and finally remembered to look at Lully.
http://lullianarts.net/virtues1.htm

It might make more sense if instead of thinking of a list, we think of the virtues and vices diagramatically as they were usually represented. Each was a branch of a tree from which twigs led off to show smaller vices and virtues that were related. Like this :
http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/speculum/pages/4r.jpg

So the planetary combinations refer to the "twigs".

The other source that makes associations between the planets and the vices/virtues that springs to mind is Dante's Divine Comedy. It doesn't offer an easy reference list, but by ploughing through it, you could derive one.

Associations are often shown in symbolic images, which means an awareness of medieval iconography to make sense of it. Lots of staring at pictures and looking at art dictionaries might produce a list.

You might also like this, derived from the Sefer Yetzirah
http://www.psyche.com/psyche/cube/cube_vv.html

Kim
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kim and thank you again, I see from the links that there really is different ways to look at the issue. Lully seems to give a different set of planets/sins combinations. Somehow I've started to really like De Vore's set, when I've thought about it longer.

These answers and links have given me a lot of food for thought, so thanks a lot, I'm glad I asked. That's just the kind information I hoped to receive. Maybe I have to get Divine Comedy from the library nearby...
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
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Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gem wrote:
Mercury associated with gluttony?? Confused


That might be mental gluttony, stuffing in new things before the old ones have been digested. In the Enneagram gluttony correlates with Type Seven, which Don Riso and Richard Hudson describe as follows:

Quote:
The nature of their potential problem begins with one of their strongest assets—their agile minds. Type Seven’s thinking is quick and mercurial [sic!], they are curious, easily stimulated, and eager for new ideas and experiences. (---) This is like the person who has always wanted to see the pyramids in Egypt, and after much anticipation, finally embarks on a trip to see them. However, on arriving at the pyramids, the person is anticipating an exciting dinner in Cairo that night, or perhaps thinking about showing friends back home their pictures of the trip, and so "misses" seeing the pyramids. The person’s attention is elsewhere, no on the experience that they are having. Naturally, this decreases the enjoyment of the experience, leaving the Seven hungry for more.

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/TypeSevenOverview.asp

The other point in De Vore's list that sounded surprising was connecting the Sun with Sloth. But then I remembered what Lilly writes in CA I about an ill dignified Sun:

Quote:
a spendrift, wasting his patrimony, and hanging on other men's charity, yet thinks all men are bound to him, because of a gentleman born.


The Sun signifies nobility and one of the main points of belonging to a noble family was that you didn't have to work. It seems that in the De Vore's system the Sun is not so much about being The Leader than about being The Priviledged One, someone whom others do things for.
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Papretis,

In 1941 Morton W. Bloomfield wrote a short paper called ‘The Origin of the Concept of the Seven Cardinal Sins’ (The Harvard Theological Review, Vol. 34, No. 2. (Apr., 1941), pp. 121-128).

Within his introductory remarks he wrote:

Quote:
It has been clear that the medieval and modern Catholic teaching of the seven cardinal sins, sometimes called the deadly sins, had a Hellenistic astrological origin.


Although he says ‘Hellenistic’ he actually considers this to have a much more ancient heritage, being rooted in Chaldean philosophy which is reflected in Biblical passages.

At a very early stage there were variations on the names and attributes of the sins, which is why it is difficult to see the direct comparison between early references and lists such as deVore’s. In fact it is likely that there were 8 sins to begin with, and that these were reduced down to seven to make a better planetary correspondence.

Morton quotes an early astrological reference found in the Hermetic texts. He is referring to the same passage as that discussed by Denis Laboure in his article on the ‘The Seven Bodies of Man in Hermetic Astrology’ here: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/7bodies.html

This relates to the 7 virtues that are acquired by the soul on its descent into physical form, and the 7 corruptions that must be relinquished on its ascent after death.

Quote:
And thereupon the man mounts upward through the structure of the heavens.
And to the first zone of heaven (Moon) he gives up the force which works increase and that which works decrease;
to the second zone (Mercury), the machinations of evil cunning;
to the third zone (Venus),the lust whereby men are deceived;
to the fourth zone (Sun), domineering arrogance;
to the fifth zone (Mars), unholy daring and rash audacity;
to the sixth zone (Jupiter), evil strivings after wealth;
and to the seventh zone (Saturn), the falsehood which lies in wait to work harm;
And thereupon the man mounts upward through the structure of the heavens.


I think you may be right about gluttony being a moral greed rather than simply a physical one. Thomas Aquinas said of it "Gluttony denotes, not any desire of eating and drinking, but an inordinate desire... leaving the order of reason, wherein the good of moral virtue consists." (2, 148, ad 1)

But I’m not confident in deVore’s association of indolence to the Sun. The ‘domineering arrogance’ related to the Sun’s sphere makes a much more natural association with the sin of pride and arrogance.
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
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Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Deb about these insights and information!

Deb wrote:
But I’m not confident in deVore’s association of indolence to the Sun. The ‘domineering arrogance’ related to the Sun’s sphere makes a much more natural association with the sin of pride and arrogance.


The Sun is also a choleric planet, that fits poorly with indolence. But on the other hand, the Sun on the Ascendant would in practice seem to give to the appearance a certain innocent, almost etheric, quality (Joan Fontaine, Steffi Graf, Marc Almond, Andy Warhol for example). I was a bit surprised when I noticed that for a first time. First I didn't believe some birth times I got from acquaintances with the Sun on the Asc, they just didn't manifest what I thought that position should be like.
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raphnix



Joined: 01 Oct 2008
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Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kim Farnell wrote:
De Vore gives:

Sins: Pride, Jupiter; covetousness, Saturn; lust, Venus; wrath, Mars; gluttony, Mercury; envy, Moon; indolence, Sun.

Virtues: Chastity, Moon; love, Venus; courage, Mars; faith, Jupiter; hope, Sun; wisdom, Mercury; and prudence, Saturn.


Does this mean that if you're star sign is associated or ruled by the above mentioned planet you're more likely to commit those sins more frequently and have those virtues too? Or did De Vore just tallied this from his analysis to the individual star signs and concluded its association to the sins and vistues?
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mattG



Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

raphnix wrote:




Does this mean that if you're star sign is associated or ruled by the above mentioned planet you're more likely to commit those sins more frequently and have those virtues too? Or did De Vore just tallied this from his analysis to the individual star signs and concluded its association to the sins and vistues?


The latter. We love making these lists of correspondences. It helps us to know that we understand the qualities of the planets and signs and is a memory aid as well. Be wary of studying Qabalah though. Those people do it too much.IMHO

Matt
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kim Farnell wrote:
De Vore gives:

Sins: Pride, Jupiter; covetousness, Saturn; lust, Venus; wrath, Mars; gluttony, Mercury; envy, Moon; indolence, Sun.


I have this list:

Saturn:greed; Jupiter:gluttony; Mars:wrath; Sun: pride; Venus:lust; Mercury:envy; Moon:sloth.

On the other hand, Dante gives the following list for the inhabitants of the seven heavenly spheres :

Moon: souls disposed to virtue; Mercury: souls disposed to good for fame; Venus, true love and friendship; Sun, theologians; Mars, warriors because of faith; Jupiter, kings; Saturn, contemplative souls.

Margherita
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
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Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gjiada wrote:
Moon: souls disposed to virtue; Mercury: souls disposed to good for fame; Venus, true love and friendship; Sun, theologians; Mars, warriors because of faith; Jupiter, kings; Saturn, contemplative souls.

Thanks, this sounds interesting. Sun and theologians... Sun = God / Spirit...

Sari
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