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Seven Deadly Sins
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: England

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gjiada wrote:
Quote:

I have this list:

Saturn:greed; Jupiter:gluttony; Mars:wrath; Sun: pride; Venus:lust; Mercury:envy; Moon:sloth.


Hi Margherita,

Your list seems to fit very neatly with the seven corruptions mentioned in the Hermetic texts (listed earlier in this thread). Can I ask if you have a traditional source for this, or is it something that you put together yourself? I am talking about the first list in your post, not the one from Dante's work

Deb
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Can I ask if you have a traditional source for this, or is it something that you put together yourself?


I did not put together myself the list, but I can't remember where I took it.

I searched a little in my books and I found a late extract from "Coeliloquium morale" written by Albertus de Cottignola in 1529.

The complete title is:
Coeliloquium morale p. fratris Alberti de Marchesiis de Cottignola Ordinis minorum de obseruantia artium ac sacrae theologiae lectoris peritiss. Approbatum Clementis VII. Decreto ne quis hunc librum infra septennium imprimat aut alibi impressum uendat: sub poenis in eo contentis.
Pubblicazione: (Impressum Bononie : in aedibus Ioannis Baptiste de Phaellis, die 20 Maij 1529


It gives almost the same list, just Saturn and Mercury are switched because according Alberto: "Mercury, silver in colour and always following the Sun, always signifies Avarice because it is always in search for money and always follows arrogance." (Sun)

And about Saturn: "In Saturn, a star with a plumbeous, livid colour, always understand envy, which is a lividness nourished with others' good fortune, which makes the soul plumbeous and heavy."

Anyway, I prefer the first one, it makes more sense to me.

Margherita
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Anyway, I prefer the first one, it makes more sense to me.


Yes, to me too - but thank you for the Albertus reference too. If you do come across the first reference again, you could perhaps add the details later - I'd love to know the source of that list.

Best wishes
Deb
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Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
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Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gem wrote:
Quote:
Mercury associated with gluttony??


It does seem like an odd association but I know three pathological overeaters, and two of them are Gemini Suns and the third has Gemini rising. So maybe it's not as odd as it seems.

Tara
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Gem



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tara
I know a couple of overweight Libras but this kind of random examples is meaningless. Associating the sign Gemini with gluttony based on just three examples is too simplistic.

I agree with others that if Mercury is to be associated with gluttony, it must be mental ones rather than physical ones. I'm not convinced by some of Nicholas de Vore's other associations either.
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Sunny



Joined: 11 Oct 2008
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Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All very interesting I vote Jupiter for the Gluttony vice, not merc and the last analogy resonated for me too
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dorian Greenbaum has just sent me an interesting reference on this subject, which she came across in a section in Alan Scott's Origen and the Life of the Stars which describes Servius, Commentary on the Aeneid of Vergil, 6.714 (2.98.21-24 Thilo):

'when souls descend, they draw with them the sloth of Saturn, the wrath of Mars, the lust of Venus, the yearning for money of Mercury, and the desire to rule of Jupiter. These things cause disturbance to the souls so that they are unable to exercise their power and properties.'
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
'when souls descend, they draw with them the sloth of Saturn, the wrath of Mars, the lust of Venus, the yearning for money of Mercury, and the desire to rule of Jupiter. These things cause disturbance to the souls so that they are unable to exercise their power and properties.'


I wonder why the Moon is missing here?

Thanks for the note on Alan Scott's book: ''Origen and the Life of the Stars''. Its a bit expensive to buy but I see its stored in the National Library here. It looks worth reading.
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Sun is missing too. Maybe the author has omitted the lights.
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Robert



Joined: 05 May 2009
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Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the risk of posting to a topic that’s gone a little ‘cold’ I thought that you might find the following article of some considerable interest:

http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/browse.aspx?ID=159

It’s not too long (about 5 pages) and it treats its subject with a depth of understanding and insight that is rare in matters where religion and astrology overlap.

Broadly speaking, the article takes the "Deadly Sins" as point of departure for a brief but profound study of the nature and structure of the human soul - it’s relation to the divine Spirit, the “Fall” which opens the doorway to “sin” (described as a turning inside-out or an upside-down of the psychic faculties), and even touching upon the mystical means of return to the soul’s primordial, “Edenic” harmony.

The planetary correspondences to the Deadly Sins themselves are only given in a footnote and yet enough is said about the ‘virtuous’ origin of the sins, i.e. the spiritual faculties of the soul, to offer the astrologer a glimpse of planetary meaning that actually lifts them above the realm of horoscopic interpretations.

Obviously the article is not about astrology as such, but I think it bears mention here for the way in which the writer passes so effortlessly between different symbolisms, astrological, numerological, and religious, giving expression to a universality of perspective that has the power to resolve many unnecessary controversies.

See what you think.

Robert.
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mattG



Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Robert for the link to the article which was excellent.Have you seen the "Logos and Light" Lecture series by Ben Dykes mentioned in the News Forum here? I am sure that you will find it of interest.

Best wishes

Matt
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Robert



Joined: 05 May 2009
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Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reference Matt, I received a 'marketing' e-mail about Ben Dykes' "Logos and Light" series a short while ago and gave it a quick look on his web site. It does indeed look interesting, but I'm concentrating on improving my knowledge of horary at the moment and so I decided to put it on hold for the time being.
Cheers,
Robert.
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mattG



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Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are going for practice over theory then that's fine by me.

Regards

Matt
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josephc



Joined: 07 Nov 2008
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:04 pm    Post subject: Seven Deadly Sins Reply with quote

Hello!

What a wonderful feature of these forums – the ability to post replies to what people wrote years ago.
Having just arrived here I went through the various topic headings and felicitously found posts on planets and the 7 deadly sins. Because I’ve been attempting to penetrate Dante’s Commedia lately this was of great interest to me. I found that Deb had found the same article than I had that attributed a Hellenistic and astronomic origin to the doctrine of the 7 deadly sins.
The interesting thing in the Purgatorio is that Dante never makes a direct correlation between planets and sins – that would violate the doctrine of the essential goodness of the planetary realms and that he has much bigger matters for the planets up in paradise where he is within planetary spheres.

Here’s the line-up for paradise:

Moon – those good people who violated religious vows.
Mercury – lovers of honor.
Venus – lovers of love (and luxury, I surmise)

Sun in the middle – wise or learned people – theologians and more

Mars – crusaders and martyrs
Jupiter – people who are just (mostly but not exclusively rulers)
Saturn – contemplatives.


Now here’s the order of the purifications of 7 deadly sins in Dantes purgatory together with a contemporary attribution of planets and sins.

Pride (Sun)
Envy (Moon)
Anger (Mars)

Sloth in the middle (Saturn)


Avarice (Mercury)
Gluttony (Jupiter)
Lust (Venus)


It took me a long time before I began to make sense of this sequence. The Sun and Moon are the most universal of planets as luminaries, and pride and envy are the most pervasive and foundational vices. Here not Sun but Saturn is in the middle. Why Saturn – it is the planet of laziness. It is not an evil will but laziness that has kept us lagging behind spiritually. Then we’re at the more neutral Mercury and the two benefics at the top. These three vices are based on an excess of love and so have more redeeming qualities than the vices below them. Therefore they should be governed by the two benefics.

As far as I can tell nobody of all the great Dante scholars have written about this directly. I feel that because I ponder astrological symbolism as a profession I have an advantage here.

Okay – now I’ll post this and see if it goes through.


Joseph Crane
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Joseph

Congratulations on learning how to post directly to the forum Smile

That is really interesting. I read half of your post and then hung over the list that had sloth and Saturn in the middle. Having the Sun in the middle of the virtues made such sense, because the Sun is the centre of all the important ancient schemes, so I just couldn’t get my head around you moving Saturn to the middle place, and had to think it through a little before reading on.

Yes – I agree. And what’s more, it is perfectly suitable for Saturn to become the ‘kingpin’ of the vices. This is what happens as the general theme – the Sun is the main significator for life, so Saturn, its opposite, signifies death and rules the opposing signs. The Sun is exalted in Aries which ushers in spring, so Saturn is exalted in Libra which ushers in autumn (because what the Sun generates, Saturn destroys, etc). The Sun is the generator of princely virtue, and Saturn, of course, is the generator of mortal vice.

And then I read your explanation – perfect! Everything falls into place.

I know that you are studying Dante and wonder how that project is going. Are you going to be publishing anything on it anytime soon? What you have done here is very elegant.

Deb
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