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Body piercing and tattooing
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Laura BT



Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 39

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Deb, for Maud Wheeler's book on Moles is interesting. Her body parts rulers are not the usual ones, i.e. backbone to Jupiter and kidneys to Mars - I've not come across those before.

If I correctly understand the system Karen kindly explained, her mother's scar is on her right side of middle back for the moon in Leo (or is it the right knee with that Capricorn Sun?).

Hummm, not sure if I am getting it; but here goes with a couple of Granny's scars:

With Libra rising, Queen Venus ruling Taurus in the 7th, Granny should have a visible scar-mole on the mid-way left side of the throat? Or is it the left kidney?

And with Moon in Leo, disposted by a 23 degree Aries Sun, which is exalted (even in the 7th) , Granny has a visible scar-mole on the middle-to-high right side of her forehead...?

Following the 6th house rule, which has Pisces on the cusp giving Jupiter as ruler, Granny's left foot, underneath and near the toes, shows a scar/mole? Cutting Mars is also Pisces in the 6th, so this mark is probably a scar.

Am I anywhere near?


Confused
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Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Laura
Quote:
With Libra rising, Queen Venus ruling Taurus in the 7th, Granny should have a visible scar-mole on the mid-way left side of the throat? Or is it the left kidney?


I don’t think she has one on her throat, but 21 Libra rising would point to an area around some prominent scars, I think. (I’m not sure if the left kidney is close enough – Granny will have to check that.)

Quote:
And with Moon in Leo, disposted by a 23 degree Aries Sun, which is exalted (even in the 7th) , Granny has a visible scar-mole on the middle-to-high right side of her forehead...?


I don’t think so. In Lilly’s technique you would concentrate more on the sign placement of the Moon, so the main bodily association would come from Leo. The fact that the Moon is elevated in the chart would describe it as on the front of the body or more easily visible. This is the theory of it, although as Lilly says (below) it is much more reliable when we find these places afflicted by malefics.

Quote:
Following the 6th house rule, which has Pisces on the cusp giving Jupiter as ruler, Granny's left foot, underneath and near the toes, shows a scar/mole? Cutting Mars is also Pisces in the 6th, so this mark is probably a scar.


Yes. Her feet seem to have been hit pretty badly over the years – Mars in Pisces on the 6th cusp picks that up nicely. Of one she says:

Quote:
“I was about 3 when i stepped on an old-fashioned oil can, one with spout and it went through my left foot, leaving a scar top and bottom on my foot that some people have thought was a crucifixion type scar”


Here’s a few more notes from Lilly’s text, in case you don’t have these.

CA., p.149:

If Saturn signifies the mark, it’s a darkest, obscure, black one; if Mars, then it’s usually some scar or cut if he be in a fire sign, or else in any other sign, a red mole. And you must always know, that if either the sign, or the planet signifying the mole, mark or scar, be much afflicted, the mark or scar is the greater and more eminent.
If the sign be masculine, and the planet masculine, the mole or scar is on the right side of the body. The contrary judge, if the sign be feminine, and the lord thereof in a feminine sign.
If the significator of the scar or mole be above the earth, (that is, from the cusp of the ascendant to the cusp of the seventh, as either in the twelfth, eleventh, tenth, ninth, eighth or seventh) the mark is on the fore part of the body, or visible to the eye, or on the out-side of the member. But if the significator be under the earth, viz., in the first, second, third, fourth, fifth or sixth, the mole or scar is on the back part of the body, not visible, but on the inside of the member.
If few degrees of a sign do ascend, or if the lord of the sign be in a few degrees, the mole, mark or scar is in the upper part of the member. If the middle of the sign ascend, or the lord thereof [be] in the middle, or near the middle of the sign, the mole or mark is so in the member, viz. in the middle. If the latter degrees ascend, or the Moon, or lord of the first or sixth house be near the last degrees of the sign, the mole, mark or scar is near the lower part of the member.
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kidneys are in back are they Not? I have no scars on my back that I know of, good spotting on the foot!

Though if one was looking for height of Scar, Kidney level does hit one, maybe two depending on how you look at it,

Very Happy

Granny
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Laura BT



Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 39

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Granny and Deb - One out of three - whoops! Embarassed
But better than none! Very Happy

With my Aries Moon making a grand trine between a Leo Mars and my Ascendant, you know I am covered in freckles and moles; with only one serious scar that also conforms to the rules, I am quite convinced there are astrological reasons for all such marks. Here goes with my second try on Granny’s marks/scars:

The Ascendant ruler, Venus in Taurus, in the 7th has me somewhat flummoxed, as there results could be various: By rights there should be some mark around the navel. Granny, you say your mark could be considered the same height as the kidney area – this provides an interesting clue: But I still have several different ideas of where Granny’s scars might be, and why.

Could there be a Moon ruled stomach scar? Or with the Moon in masculine Leo, at the top of her chart: Granny might have a mark middle-right of her heart area? Or because of the Venus semi-square towards the 6th house Jupiter ruled Mars, it could even be her liver?

The 10th house Moon is also conjunct Uranus (if only Lilly had something to say about outer planets!) suggesting the mark is eminent. Is this not actually a mole but a scar (from a sudden need for surgery)?

But because the Taurean Venus is locked into a phenomenal fixed grand cross, the mark on the front of the body, opposite Saturn in the 4th - the matrix connected to children, suggests that maybe we are looking at a cesarean scar? Possible?

Confused

Granny's horrid childhood accident with her foot onto an oilcan is poignant, considering Neptune, ruler of Pisces, is also the planet associated with oil (and feet). Does Horary then use Jupiter as the ruler of oil?
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL you hit one I didn't think to include, but yes I've had two C sections though the scar is no longer visible. I have a scar at the sternum and Navel due to an emergency surgery that included removing a tumor from my Liver, Liver is internal so i didn't think to include that in my list but hit several of my scars. the only one that really shows much is the one at the sternum, my own fault I strained the stitches getting out of bed almost directly after surgery, I hate hospitals.

And yes there are more scars on the list.

you hit those very precisely, nice.

Granny
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Laura BT



Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 39

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granny, said

Quote:
And yes there are more scars on the list.


We could attribute multiple scaring to the Piscean Jupiter, planet that thinks of a number only to double it, as ruler of the 6th, conjunct Chiron (and also conjunct Mars, by sign, who sits in the 6th) opposite Pluto in health orientated Virgo in the 11th house.

But we have yet to attributed any mark to Granny's Aries Sun conjunct Mercury on the Descendent. Granny, how are your eyes/arms/lungs ?

At the risk of lowering the tone, but to continue our study: a synchronistic article popped into my mailbox this week, which read:

Poor Anna Nichole Smith. Notorious pin-up model, most famous for marrying oil-exec octogenarian billionaire, died aged 39. Here is a definitive list of her tattoos (which illustrate Lilly’s rules as per C.A. p149):

* Pair of red lips in the right lower abdominal quadrant.
* Two red cherries on the right mid-pelvis.
* A "Playboy Bunny" on the left anterior mid-pelvis.
* The words "Daniel" and "Papas" on the mid- anterior pelvis.
* Mixed tattoo on the right lower leg and ankle representing Christ's head; Our Lady of Guadalupe; the Holy Bible; the naked torso of a woman; the smiling face of Marilyn Monroe; a cross; a heart and shooting flames.
* A mermaid on a flowerbed with a pair of lips underneath it laying across the lower back.

Her chart is from www.astrotheme.fr (this site has an 'English' button top right) Unfortunately, time is unknown:

born: 28 November 1967 Houston Texas

A Libra Moon Venus conjunction shows right-hand lower navel adornment, cherries and lips!

Names ‘Daniel and Papas’ are also the Moon (she is Mother) and Venus in Libra (navel to pelvis).

The left hand frontal Playboy Bunny could also be attributed to be the Sun in Sagittarius ruled by Jupiter in (negative, therefore left side) Virgo: I have no idea what Lilly has to say about bunny’s, but in Chinese astrology the sign of the Rabbit is attributed to Pisces, which in traditional astrology is ruled by Jupiter.

The lower right leg is attributed to Saturn in positive Aries, which makes various aspects: conjunct Chiron in Pisces, is also in trine to her fire sign Sagittarius Sun, ruled Jupiter (all symbols for religious leaning: Jesus, Mary, the Bible and cross with MM, heart and shooting flames).

The lower back mermaid flowerbed on lips is interesting, with Saturn in Aries, trine the Sun, with themes of Moon Libra with Veuns, Pisces and Jupiter, and Neptune conjunct Mercury in Scorpio all very fantasy orientated.

Generally speaking, on this subject, I have learnt how Lilly’s rules apply for placements, but not necessarily as to why a person tattoos their body; this I still attribute to Mars for cutting, Venus for adornment, and Saturn for skin – with a hefty association to Pluto, by house or aspect.

One last note: Anna Nicole Smith falls into this category, with her Mars in Capricorn in mutual reception with Saturn in Aries, and Moon conjunct Venus.

Perhaps it is possible to work backwards with tattoos, marks and scars, and even rectify a chart according to Lilly’s rules of visible/invisible marks be they front, back, higher or lower?!
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as far as I know eyes and lungs are fine,

arms... well you might want ot get more specific. =)

what kind of things denote in a birth chart being Pierced, not by adornment choice, but by incidents such as the oil can through the foot?
and not necessarily surgery either, that one is choice or health related, I mena injurious?

Granny
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Laura BT



Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 39

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Granny,
I came to the conclusion that maybe your arms or hands might be scarred/marked because of your Aries Sun-Mercury conjunction, on the descendant. Mercury rules arms, hands (and lungs). It seems the markers of an Aries Sun, i.e. head (aches), neuralgia, eyes and brain are all in working order, so that leaves the planet the Sun is most closely associated with. And that planet is Mercury.

Venus is adornment by choice, primarily the person believes they are adding value to themselves.

Whereas Mars, because of speed, aggression, and heat, is usually involved with any kind of accident; a piercing of the skin could also involve Saturn. (Do you have a time for that foot accident for you to look at - was Saturn aspecting your chart and 6th house then?).

Sudden (electrical) accidents often have a prominent Uranus; life changing accidents can even see Pluto; and lucky accidents have Jupiter present.

Hot accidents, such as car crashes, boiling water, and out of control fire belong to Mars (+ sometime Uranus). Mercury as trickster (to be transformed into healer) can also be around accidents too, particularly if the accident is in your neighbourhood, or one that involves transport, or a young child, (where the moon would also be present).

Have you suffered a 'hot' accident to either your right arm, or both (with Mercury, the sign of the twins) of your arms (with fire perhaps, as the Leo Moon in trine to the Sun/Mercury), one that might leave a distinct red (Aries) mark?
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh no, I get bad headaches that hurt my eyes terribly, but that isn't a permanent scar type thing so I guess I misunder stood you there.

as far as I know my lungs are fine though, no asthma or anything, etc.

yes I have scars on hands and arms, but that is all I'll say unless you hit it more directly.

I dont have times for any of these events because it never occured to me.

However there is more than ONE piercing incident, the oil can is just the most significant,

Also i think Venus in her own signs may also make the person vein enough to think they dont need further adornment, ergo no tattoos? not to mention some of us dont find them adorning, but detracting.

these are not scar/piercing incidents but thought I'd mention since 3 seems to have been somewhat significant, I also almost drowned in a pool accident that same year, 3 was not the best year for me, Also almost died from ear infections until... here is another surgical thing I hadn't thought to include, oh well no ones gotten it so probably not real apparent, I had my tonsils removed in the winter before my third birthday, that stopped the worst of the ear infections and fevers, so might be why the year three I had so many problems, I wasn't sick in bed so I was getting into things. hmmm there is a thought, I believe it was late january of 65, sun in aquarius seems to be a more positive thing for me for some reason. I'd think sun and Saturn weren't that friendly but... for me it seems to have good things. But the incident that brought on the emergency surgery was in February 97, actual surgery was Pisces 27 Feb 1997, all day event pretty much, though it was supposed to only be a 45 minute surgery. and of course as soon as I was conscious what do I do, try to get up and get out of bed to get out of hospital, I really am not fond of hospitals... anyway what I was getting at was maybe there was a transit from 64 through 65 that wasn't particularly good for me? safety wise?

Granny
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Laura BT



Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 39

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granny said
Quote:
yes I have scars on hands and arms, but that is all I'll say unless you hit it more directly.


Too whacked to consider what happened to your hands/arms tonight, Granny, or when – why won’t you tell? Is it the right limb in particular? Or both? Jupiter, ruler of your 6th, is also lord of the 3rd, another signification that an affected part of the body is hands/arms.

Quote:
3 seems to have been somewhat significant, I also almost drowned in a pool accident that same year, 3 was not the best year for me, Also almost died from ear infections until... ...I had my tonsils removed in the winter before my third birthday, that stopped the worst of the ear infections and fevers


Ears = head = Aries = Exalted Sun in the 7th, with Mercury sign of the twins, (7th house of (ear) balance – hence both ears)

Tonsils = throat = Taurus = Venus is chart ruler in 7th (although I am not sure how this fits with Lillly's visible, above the horizon rule?)

Your Pisces Jupiter Chiron Mars is an obvious association with swimming pools.

Quote:
what I was getting at was maybe there was a transit from 64 through 65 that wasn't particularly good for me? safety wise?


Re 64-65
* Saturn transited your 6th house ruler, health-orientated Jupiter-Chiron by conjunction. (then went into the 6th April 1966 to conjunct the Pisces Mars) suggesting that serious (karmic) issues came to the fore.
* Uranus conjunct your natal Pluto, and opposed Jupiter-Chiron. From your stories it seems you have beneficent Jupiter actually looking after you!
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Natal Jupiter is aligned with Fomalhaut, so pretty well placed.

Granny
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Draco



Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 176
Location: England.

Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a really interesting topic. I'm just providing a link to another post that I created which contains elements relevant to this thread.

I didn't post here originally as the post does not exclusively concern tattoo's.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2955
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know its interesting you Bring up the Jupiter protection because on the same day T-Saturn conjoins my N=Pluto, T-Jupiter Trines my N-Sun, 20 november (also mercury conj N=Neptune so i"m sure whatever it is will either be imaginative or delusional!)

Granny
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