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Twins
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 4673
Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:35 am    Post subject: Twins Reply with quote

Someone comment this topic! Taking care of the indiviual differences in the readings for twins is quite a challange. This issue at hand, two young women, now 17 years of age, born 8 minutes apart.

The 1st has Asc 11CN14, MC 22AQ08, Sun 12VI06, Moon 10PI04.
The 2nd has Asc 12CN43, MC 24AQ12, Sun 12VI07, Moon 10PI06.

The second child is a deeper and more introvert version of the first and they are really quite different. Lilly says that any planet within 2 degrees of the opposition of the Sun is in a state of destruction. Check out the relationships between Sun and Moon. The second child merely survived cerebrospinal meningtis 1 month after birth and had a tough start (the ascendant is ruled by the Moon). In addition, the 2nd born also suffers light epileptic fits.

But can we really tell the difference and how do we encourage the development of individual characteristics? NB! I observe in several instances of twins the nodes appear on the cusp of the 9th house.
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Laura BT



Joined: 23 Oct 2007
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Andrew,
Re twins, are you saying that the north node is cusping the 9th on several charts of twins, so that they then have the south node – i.e., where they are karmically coming from, as represented by the intense relationship between Sun and the Moon linking these incarnations together, and therefore the very personal sense of connected fate that they are bringing into this life, is on the cusp of the 3rd, the house of twins. Of so, that’s fascinating. I don't hold with the south node being malific, to me its more of signifcation of fate showing important issues (perhaps that have to be gone through again, esp if planets/lights are involved), and gifts that we bring into this life.

I once heard, and for the life of me I can’t recall from who or where (a very l-o-n-g time ago), that with twins you read one twin as the Sun, i.e. the more extrovert, and the other as the Moon, the introvert. I’ll have to rack my brains where this info came from. But with twins’ charts for natal readings I use this method, and it seems to work. Of course, if there are hours apart the differences are often much clearer.

For natal readings of twins I also like to have the parents’ charts on hand (if possible), so I can really gauge how the psychological Sun and Moon are/have been influenced within the home relationship/environment.

With Caesarean births that uses a process of intervention to separate a child from his or her mother, and with twins there is often ten minutes between each other, I believe this understanding still holds, perhaps more so if they are identical. But caesarean births cannot, in my opinion, really be used in ‘scientific’ data crunching. Of course, you can read the chart but I think, and once again this is my opinion, it is difficult to use c-section charts to prove what is ‘natural’.

It is timely that you ask this question when Mars is retrograde on their ascendant, and the nodes have just past their Sun/Moon axis – with Saturn to come. Also they will be coming up for a nodal return in the not too distant future. There is obviously work to be done!

Interesting topic! Thanks…
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
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Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laura! Smile Thumbs up

Tad Mann judges conditions of gestation from the cusp of the 9th. The Moon's nodes may show a gathering of people. I thought it was interesting for that reason.

Loved your comment on judging the one twin as the Sun, the other as the Moon (and so on...?) My manner of approaching the charts in question was to say that the 2nd child represented a person with resources one had to reach further and deeper into the chart to obtain. There is much to gain by giving matters a second glance, or it might be compared to examining an onion in several layers.

However, in view of the Moon in Pisces, Pisces often showed twins of multiple eggs - making differences between the natives more obvious. In contrast to Gemini where the twins originate from a single egg.

In memory of a client of mine, that unforunately passed away far too early - he was also a twin birth. During his life he had lived much abroad and worked many years within travel. His twin brother, on the other hand, had never travelled far or moved from his birthtown - But he would run no less than 10km every day.

Caesareans - I had the birth of my youngest child delayed with one hour to avoid Saturn in Gemini, lord of the 8th, on the ascendant with Mercury combust in the 12th. Pluto on the descendant. The doctors obliged. My option was Cancer on the ascendant with Jupiter, lord of the 11th, rising. Jupiter in mutual reception with the Moon in her own face in Sagittarius. It is fair to ask what actually happens here in prospect of possibly turning the tables of fate and character.

What is natural? At an early stage of my career I used to stipulate a probable time of birth for a child expected upon an interview with the parents. A case that comes to mind is where my prediction was 14 days ahead of the doctors term - but the result being the doctors missing by 13 days and the astrologer by one. For another female client I estimated that she had her first period when she was past 16 years of age, at which point she broke down in tears and said that she until hearing that news she had thought that there had been something medically wrong with her that could prevent her from having children. It is another discussion but it
does add another aspect to the question of what is natural.
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Andrew



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Twins Reply with quote

From La Volasfera:

Quote:
The 1st has Asc 11CN14, MC 22AQ08, Sun 12VI06, Moon 10PI04.


A dagger lying beside a skull. It denotes one of fatal tendencies, destructive to a degree; inclined to cruelty and oppression. This person will need to hold his passions in strong check or some fatality will surely come upon him. The nature is melancholy and taciturn; yet silently discerning, and capable of keen feelings. "It makes not, but it mars; and with the hollow eyes of death looks back with secret self-condemnation upon its unfruitful work." The end of life is tragic. It is a degree of UNDOING.

Quote:
The 2nd has Asc 12CN43, MC 24AQ12, Sun 12VI07, Moon 10PI06.


A caduceus between two moons, one crescent. It denotes a person of extreme capacity in the pursuit of knowledge, a penetrating mind, and retentive memory; the native will accomplish wonders in the pursuit of the subtile sciences. The temper is changeful like the moon, and subject to fits of hope and despondency of more or less rapid alternation. The native is likely to travel much and to be subject to many changes of fortune. But the chief characteristic is versatility and aptitude in the gaining of knowledge. With the symbol of Hermes dominant the native will either be a linguist, doctor, or a distinguished scholar. It is a degree of KNOWLEDGE.
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the contribution, Andrew - but how are the interpretations from La Volasfera supposed to fit? They feel so completely wrong and useless. Maybe that is because I couldn't work out such degree meanings and they seemed to fanciful for me. Essential dignities, fixed stars, exaltation degrees and the antiscia gave me more than enough to consider. My apologies , it would not be my part to criticize or oppose an aspect of astrology that you may be more efficiant and experienced in.
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Laura BT



Joined: 23 Oct 2007
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goodness, Andrew! I have never done charts for triplets, nor for quadruplets. What an idea, I wouldn’t know if the theory would follow: the Sun being one child, Moon next, Mercury next, Venus etc… it would be a familial walking-talking experiential Astro-drama! Could anyone cope? I would have thought there would be some breathing time between delivering more than two, so they would all have their own chart, unless of course we are back to the c-section.

Of which, I mean it is challenging ‘what is natural’ and, I agree that glory of nature is a pretty massive subject, to use charts of c-sections for scientific, Gauquelin type study, i.e. such and such a horoscope leads to great sports people, redhead, writers, scientists etc. C-sections do lead me to wonder about Mars and Saturn in charts of both mother and baby – but that too is another topic! Btw, I am not the number-crunching type. But when it comes to others who data-gather in the strictest sense, it makes sense to have boundaries. IVF could also be included within that boundary, it is how a lot of twins are concieved in the first place. It's worth noting that I have advised favourable dates to people who have used IVF successfully.

In my early days, I would also blithely determine (mainly using the moon, natal and by transit, (by then I had not yet been persuaded by O.B. to buy CA)) the sex of child, time and length of labour, and when the baby would be due – invariably I was close, if not spot on.

Meanwhile, on the other hand, if it is necessary to have surgery, then yes, it is fair to choose a propitious time for childbirth.

Quote:
I had the birth of my youngest child delayed with one hour to avoid Saturn in Gemini,


It is absolutely your responsibility as the astrologer/physician/priest to make the celestial conditions as conducive as possible. It would be foolish not too.

The Cancer rising you chose is far more preferable – lucky you had a compliant Dr! Very Happy

Hello other Andrew, La Volasfera seems rather inspired (visually by Hamlet, Rembrandt, or Jacob Boehme?) although too fated (where is free will and destiny?); but it would appear that the second child does resonate with the Moon.
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Andrew



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew J. Bevan wrote:
Thank you for the contribution, Andrew - but how are the interpretations from La Volasfera supposed to fit? They feel so completely wrong and useless. Maybe that is because I couldn't work out such degree meanings and they seemed to fanciful for me. Essential dignities, fixed stars, exaltation degrees and the antiscia gave me more than enough to consider. My apologies , it would not be my part to criticize or oppose an aspect of astrology that you may be more efficiant and experienced in.


Not at all. Do gTum-mo, i.e., Vajrayana furor meditation. Be kind to demons. It generates good karma. Wink

The interpretations from La Volasfera are supposed to describe the native, or at least the native as described by the Ascendant. They're supposed to be able to help distinguish the characteristics of twins. But if they're wrong and useless in this case, then they're wrong and useless. I've known them to work remarkably well in many instances, but in this case, clearly not; though I thought there might be something valid in the reference to the caduceus. Ah well. Maybe Kozminsky might have something better to offer. I'll have a look.
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Andrew



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hello other Andrew, La Volasfera seems rather inspired (visually by Hamlet, Rembrandt, or Jacob Boehme?) although too fated (where is free will and destiny?); but it would appear that the second child does resonate with the Moon.


These were translated and commented upon by Sepharial:

http://www.astroamerica.com/sabian2.html#c28

Yes, they do seem fatalistic, like much of Victorian astrology.
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laura! Thumbs up

I had the birth of my youngest child delayed with one hour by insisting on changing the time for the Caesarean.

Quote:
Laura wrote:
It is absolutely your responsibility as the astrologer/physician/ priest to make the celestial conditions as conducive as possible. It would be foolish not too. The Cancer rising you chose is far more preferable – lucky you had a compliant Dr!


The hospital was first reluctant to my request but they obliged when I claimed my 25 years conviction into astrology and the responsibilty this endowed upon me according to my religious beliefs.

I was a bit taken back by the number of doctors attending the birth. The operation theatre was actually crowded. I looked askingly at the doctor stood next to me. He said: "It is unusual that someone requests to move the time of a Caesarean. We want to be where the action is!" I said: "That's alright then, but I'm not promising this is Jesus!" Lala Happy

In view of the meanings of the appointed time of birth with Saturn, lord of the 8th, on the Ascendant, it might be said that the new born child's Great Grandmother, and last remaining member of that generation, past on only a few hours after his birth. The news of the success and safety of his birth was one of the last things she would have recollected before she let go and went to rest.
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Laura wrote:
I once heard... that with twins you read one twin as the Sun, i.e. the more extrovert, and the other as the Moon, the introvert.


Brilliant! Thumbs up
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sun/moon/?

what then of a third?

Granny
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Laura BT



Joined: 23 Oct 2007
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Andrew! Very Happy

I take it the consultation went well.

I only wish we could attribute this method to a more reliable source than my memory!
Best wishes
Laura
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Laura BT



Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 39

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Granny, we covered that earlier: Perhaps it is mercury?

Quote:
I have never done charts for triplets, nor for quadruplets... I wouldn’t know if the theory would follow: the Sun being one child, Moon next, Mercury next, Venus etc... It would be a familial walking-talking experiential Astro-drama!



I wonder has anyone in the astrological community has read charts for triplets, or more? And if so, what was the time between the births? And did the time between delivery make any difference to the houses, aspects, etc?
Very Happy
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
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Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did have an instance of reading the same chart twice in the same week. I thought, "- Damn, now I'm getting my mind into a right muddle."

It turned out that two woman from an entirely different part of the country were born in the same town, at the same hospital and on the same day! They had both at the same time decided to consult the same astrologer in the same week.

The two ladies, who probably had been lay cot by cot after birth, did not know of one another! Cool
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Laura!

Looking beyond the case of twins, triplets and quadruplets - could the sequence of Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, etc. be applied to signifying a first born, second born and third born child, and so on? Secret

It is a established in psychology that it is significant which number you come in the line of breathen - and these considerations are important when regarding compatability in relationships.

Exclamation Question

We have been counting the sequence as Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus.. but Sun, Moon, Venus, Mars, etc.. would probably be more correct and in accordance with the planetary metals and medalions.
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