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Where did Rob Hand get this from?
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Yikkes!



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
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Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:13 pm    Post subject: Where did Rob Hand get this from? Reply with quote

"Sun in the Eighth House

... Your inner self seems attracted to unusual matters related to the termination of life-death and its mysteries.

Traditional astrology indicates that near your middle age a crisis will rear its head in your life. If this period is successfully spanned you can expect a prolonged life with a gradual heightening vitality. "

I've seen this in other people's charts but I can't work out the Astrological logic behind it.

Why the crisis ? What's at it's root?

Any ideas?

H.
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where did this quote come from?

Quote:
.. Your inner self [Sun]seems attracted to unusual matters [?] related to the termination of life-death and its mysteries [8th house. He is apparently associating the 8th house and mysteries as well as death or he is extrapolating from the idea that death and what happens afterwards is a mystery].

Traditional astrology [I have this feeling this was written prior to Hand's immersion in medieval astrology] indicates that near your middle age a crisis will rear its head in your life. [Progressed Sun to the MC?]If this period is successfully spanned you can expect a prolonged life with a gradual heightening vitality. "


Please provide the source and perhaps some more context.

Tom
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I've seen this in other people's charts but I can't work out the Astrological logic behind it.

Why the crisis ? What's at it's root?


The houses meanings were heavily influenced by the Sunís daily motion. The Sun has its eastern birth in the morning and rises to culmination (adulthood) at noon. Itís riding high. Then it starts to sink into the west and becomes aware that thereís going to be an end. The Sun is having a crisis.
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Julie K



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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:20 am    Post subject: Where Did Rob Hand Get This From Reply with quote

Kirk,

The Sun's movement into the 8th House in mid to late afternoon was described by Isabel Hickey as: 'The shadows falling across the park' - The day is dying!(My words).

Julie K
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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Sun's movement into the 8th House in mid to late afternoon was described by Isabel Hickey as: 'The shadows falling across the park'


Very nice! My 8th house Sun finds it real poetic-like.
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Julie K



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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk,

I find Isabels words very descriptive myself.

Julie K
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know precisely what Hand meant and none of us are going to unless, and maybe not even then, we get a source and a context for this quote. I don't recall Hand writing such a cookbook-like delineation, but he may have early in his career.

True the Sun is "dying" in the 8th since by diurnal motion it is setting, but the setting, and therefore the dying, would then begin after the Sun crosses the MC and enters the 9th (unless we're using whole sign houses where this may not be true depending on the birth location) and continue into the 7th until it actually "dies" when it crosses the DSC. In fact this kind of motion is the basis of primary directions, something I'm certain Hand is aware of, but something he rarely discusses.

The quote specified a "crises" in mid life for those who have the Sun in the 8th, apparently without regard to sign. If the Sun were dying, and this "dying" connected to any manner of crises (as the text suggests) and this is related to a crises in mid-life, would the Sun in the 9th relate to a late life crises and the Sun in the 7th relate to an early life crises, or does this only apply to the Sun in the 8th and if so, why? I am curious about this, but I have none of his work that contains this quote or at least none I can find. If he wrote it at all, I think this would have come about the time of his work Horoscope Symbols. Maybe it is in there.

In what context is Hand using the words, "traditional astrology?" Valens? Cardan? Lilly? Alan Leo?

Tom
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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Sun is doing just fine in the 9th Ė the ancients gave him his joy there. So he attains the top in the 10th, gets to hold on for a while and be powerful in the 9th, and then comes the reality of the 8th. I see the crisis as the awareness of the upcoming death. The awareness of mortality is a death in itself Ė the death of an invincible self. Itís an awareness that I think few young people experience.

I would also prefer to know exactly and for sure where this crisis idea comes from and when it first appeared, but I think I mentioned the probable inspiration for it.

Iíve been thinking there is something to it due to personal experience (Yes, that thing to be careful with in astrology.). Actions Iíve taken (and havenít) and decisions Iíve made (and havenít) in the past few years have definitely created a Ďbefore and afterí division in my life. I may have made some very serious mistakes which will render the last half of life a rather grim affair Ė or I did just the right thing.

My brother also has an 8th house Sun and at age 49, after a few years of strange health problems, he developed serious congestive heart failure and was forced to face the issue of mortality. He has made a good come-back, but life isnít the same for him.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What we've got here is an excellent example of the dangers of cookbook astrology whether delivered by a noted astrologer like Rob Hand or sun sign column written by a person of little experience.

The quote says that "traditional" astrology is the source of the idea that an 8th house Sun indicates a mid life crises of some kind.



Quote:
Traditional astrology indicates that near your middle age a crisis will rear its head in your life.


There is so much wrong with this it is hard to know where to begin, which is why we'd both like some context since Rob Hand is not a hack.

First off, I've never seen anything like this in any traditional writing. That, in and of itself, doesn't mean much. I am not the last word on anything nor have I read everything, but still I would think I would have come across something like it now and then, if it were pervasive. The only thing I have come across on occasion is that an 8th house (death) Sun (life force) is an indication of an early death. Morinus brings this up now and again. It is not a slam dunk certainty, however.

The word "crises" I think is the giveaway. This is the idea of a modern astrologer as that word in this context is the type of thing that liters pop psychology, and often finds its way into astrology. Death or the threat of death is a crises, but there are other crises and everyone sooner or later confronts his or her mortality regardless of the location of his or her Sun, and they usually confront it about middle age. Again this is why I think, if Hand did make this statement, I think he made it early on. "Death," a non-arguable event, it either occurs at a particular time or it doesn't, is converted to something softer like "crises (presumably to avoid the "fatalism" of traditional astrology)" and "crises" can be anything from one's own death to the threat of death to a child or spouse. A crises can also mean perfectly healthy individual losing his or her job, or be forced to care for an aging incoherent parent, or facing the prospect of an unwanted pregnancy, an extra marital affair, etc. It's a stretch to apply all this to the 8th house. In fact "traditional astrology" would be just as likely, if not more so, to apply any physical danger to the ascendant or its ruler (see Book XXIII of Astrologia Gallica and the discussion of King Gustav Adolphus' death). In the context of what I understand to be traditional astrology, this quote does not make sense.

So unless and until we get some more information, something I'm beginning to doubt will happen, all any of us can do is guess, and one guess is as good as another.

Tom
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missvirgo



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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Yikkes got this info from astro.com short personal portrait.
But that report is not written by Rob Hand, it says its by Robert Pelletier.
regards
missvirgo
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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ĎTraditionalí astrology is sometimes used loosely. Itís occasionally used to refer to the astrology of Pearce, Sepharial, Leo, etc. The rather casual idea being that traditional = formerly.

Quote:
The word "crises" I think is the giveaway. This is the idea of a modern astrologer as that word in this context is the type of thing that liters pop psychology, and often finds its way into astrology.

So drop the word Ďcrisisí and change it to Ďa difficult period in oneís life when intense and possibly dangerous issues must be facedí, or some such thing. Pop psychologists donít own the idea. A traditional astrologer can talk about a crisis just as well as a modern astrologer. Itís the language of the current age. In any case, it looks like Hand is off the hook.

With the 8th house aversion to the Asc. it does seem that death and life-threatening illness would be the most likely possibilities, but I think it could be much more varied. Donít forget that the 8th house meaning of ĎFearsí goes way, way back, so the house has carried an inner, psychological element for a long time. Therefore, the 8th can indicate a confrontation with something threatening that changes life for the chart native and creates a Ďbeforeí and Ďafterí.

Quote:

A crises can also mean perfectly healthy individual losing his or her job, or be forced to care for an aging incoherent parent, or facing the prospect of an unwanted pregnancy, an extra marital affair, etc. It's a stretch to apply all this to the 8th house. In fact "traditional astrology" would be just as likely, if not more so, to apply any physical danger to the ascendant or its ruler

Those things would all be signified by the appropriate houses and planets. They are tough times, to be sure, but they donít need to involve the 8th house. Thatís where the fear element comes in. A middle-age woman who is abandoned by her husband has the 7th house event to deal with, but much more so the longer period of terror as she goes on alone. Another woman may go through the tough time relatively quickly and is less affected psychologically. The man who gambled and whored away his 2nd house money in the merry 5th house now may be haunted by the 8th house terror of a coming old age of poverty. Thereís abandonment and divorce, and thereís financial loss. Those are events. And then thereís the vision of a resulting future of solitude or poverty. Thatís a crisis.
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Julie K



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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:03 pm    Post subject: Where Did Rob Hand Get This From Reply with quote

kirk,

If this if from Rob Hand then I would think he has extracted these words from the Ancient texts he has studied and translated from Latin. He had 2 co-horts working with him here - Robert Zoller and Rob Hindes (?). Latin isnt a push over!

The Ancients believed the 7th House led to the 'portals of the 8th - a most unfortunate house'. I recall reading this but cant recall just where it is from. Smile in spite of it. :-) or because of it. Smile

Julie K
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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If this if from Rob Hand then I would think he has extracted these words from the Ancient texts he has studied and translated from Latin. He had 2 co-horts working with him here...

Rob Hand was well read and already had an extensive astrological background and career before Project Hindsight, so he could have come across this idea years ago. But it looks like this just might have been a confusion between Hand and Pelletier on Yikkes! part. ..(?)...


Quote:
The Ancients believed the 7th House led to the 'portals of the 8th - a most unfortunate house'.

Iíve heard of them calling the 7th the Portals of Death because of the western horizon and its ancient and widespread association with death. I canít really see them going from the 7th to the 8th . That seems backwards for the ancients. Modern astrologers do it all the time, but they focus on the secondary zodiacal motion of the planets and the order of the house numbers rather than on the primary diurnal motion of the sky.
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interested Readers might want to read my post that follows this one before investing too much time here

I think you're missing my point.

Quote:
So drop the word Ďcrisisí and change it to Ďa difficult period in oneís life when intense and possibly dangerous issues must be facedí, or some such thing. Pop psychologists donít own the idea. A traditional astrologer can talk about a crisis just as well as a modern astrologer. Itís the language of the current age. In any case, it looks like Hand is off the hook.


"Crisis" when referring to an emotional state is something that a modern, not a traditional astrologer would associate with Sun in the 8th. It doesn't matter if anyone else uses the word in this way or not. Phrases like"mid life crises," feelings of inferiority," "mother issues," etc are the stuff of pop psychology and psychological astrology not the stuff of Vetius Valens. A crisis in mid life smacks of pop psychology not traditional astrology.

Sun (life force) in the 8th (death) is a pretty obvious delineation. Sun in the 8th = crisis is not. The choice of word is something we are more likely to find in I'm OK; You're OK than we are in Christian Astrology. In other words "a crisis in middle age" are nothing more than buzz words. If I'm wrong one or more citations from traditional texts should settle the issue.

The other giveaway is that the condition of the Sun is not mentioned. Sun in exaltation in the 8th is a whole lot different than Sun in fall in the 8th to a traditional astrologer. These differences are not mentioned in modern cookbooks.


Quote:
Traditional astrology indicates that near your middle age a crisis will rear its head in your life.


Let's start at the beginning. It doesn't matter who said this. The question is where does the idea of Sun in the 8th house indicating a mid life crises come from? In other words, does it mean this and if so, why?

Did the idea originate with traditional astrologers, i.e. those who practiced astrology before the arbitrary cut-off date of 1700? I say 'no." I've never come across anything like this in any of the traditional works as defined above that I've read. This is the sort of thing one would expect to find in the work of modern astrologers, i.e. references to "crises" in the life without specifying the nature of the crises. Ibn Ezra does not care about your mid-life crisis. Noel Tyl might.

Phrases like "The Sun in the 8th house means ..." are not often, if at all, found in the traditional texts. Things like that are found in modern texts.


Quote:
Donít forget that the 8th house meaning of ĎFearsí goes way, way back, so the house has carried an inner, psychological element for a long time. Therefore, the 8th can indicate a confrontation with something threatening that changes life for the chart native and creates a Ďbeforeí and Ďafterí.


This is quite true. There is a lot more psychology in traditional astrology than meets the eye, but fear is not the same thing as crisis. Still your point is valid, but why the Sun? Why not the Moon?

Quote:
Those things would all be signified by the appropriate houses and planets.


Exactly, Which is why I am having trouble with the idea of Sun in the 8th is a general warning of crises but the specific crises are located elsewhere in the chart. OK maybe I'm wrong. If so there should be a philosophical reason for making this general prediction. For the same of simplicity let's put the Sun in the 8th 45 degrees from both the MC and DSC. Moving the Sun to an angle regardless of how we do it is indicative of something important in the life. I originally guessed progressed Sun to the MC indicated a crisis, and now I wish I hadn't. The symbolism there is more akin to honors than to crises. The philosophical reason given in the thread is Sun setting or moving by primary direction (traditional) to the DSC. But I still have a problem with this as is just as likely to pertain to a partner or an enemy than it is a crisis. The possible symbolic significance is an opposition to the ASC.

As to whom should be credited/blamed for this I did a bit of checking. I dug my my crumbling copy of Horoscope Symbols and Planets in Houses (Pelletier). I found nothing in either book that made this claim or anything like it keeping in mind the usual caveat that I could have missed it. I also checked Sakoian and Acker's Book The Astrologer's Handbook. Same result. And I checked Luke Broughton's The Elements of Astrology. Nothing there either. I didn't find anything by Pelletier at astro.com

But I do have one "success to report. I checked my 1984 edition of the A to Z Horoscope Maker and Delineator and found something similar. A single, unexplained sentence on page 302


Quote:
Taken alone [i.e. not considering strength or aspects - the Sun in the 8th - tc]: about the forty-fifth year may be a critical period.


Llewellyn George was long dead by the time this edition came out, but this text is more in line with late 19th early 20th century astrology than it is with contemporary astrology. So our mystery author did not simply make this up.

To summarize:

Q: Did Rob Hand or Robert Pelletier make the statement under discussion?
A: We don't know; Yikkes isn't talking, and it doesn't matter.

Q: Does the Sun in the 8th mean a mid life crisis in traditional astrology?
A: Not if we define traditional astrology as pre-1700 astrology. Admittedly the idea of a setting Sun has some merit.

Q: Is this quote something that is more likely to be found in modern work?
A: Yes, but I only found one definitive reference. All the others didn't mention anything like this.

Will Yikkes come forward with some kind of clarification?

???????

Tom


Last edited by Tom on Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After spending all that time on a clarification, I picked up an astrology book and found a traditional reason why the Sun in the 8th could well mean some kind of mid life crisis. The book is John Worsdale's (1766 - 1828?) Celestial Philosophy. On page 41 he gives the following chart data. It is not necessary to cast the chart to follow this reasoning, but I thought I'd give it anyway.

Female
June 28, 1767
5:32 PM LMT
Lincoln, England.

Solar Fire gives a chart pretty close to Worsdale's calculations. The Sun is on the 8th cusp in Cancer. Now Worsdale, as traditional astrologers do, uses the whole chart and does not dwell on the Sun in the 8th. In fact he spends more time on the ASC ruler Jupiter, in Virgo as an indicator of poor health particularly since Mercury, Jupiter's dispositor, is besieged by the Sun and Mars and is combust.

Worsdale, whose confidence in his skills and the art makes Morinus look diffident, lists the various ailments and brushes with death the native endures during her life. Here is the quote that caught my eye:


Quote:
Aged forty-one years and ten months, she wsnot expected to survive the effects of an intermitting (sic) fever which attacked her with unusual violence, during several week; this direction at that time produced several other calamities and troubles. The Ascendant at that period was directed to the opposition of the Sun.page 54 emphasis added


This sounds like a crisis of a physical nature, despite the fact that the Sun does not rule the ASC except by triplicity. But the ASC, the body, is directed to the opposition of the life force. The opposition, in traditional astrology, is the most difficult aspect.

Everyone with the Sun in the 8th will experience this direction between the ages roughly of 40 and 50 depending on where in the 8th house the Sun is located. This then is a traditional indication that Sun in the 8th signifies a crises at what is considered mid life in 2007. It seems to meet the criteria of the quote quite nicely. The direction will occur at mid life and it will occur at a later age if the Sun is in the 9th and earlier if the Sun is in the 7th. Other factors in the chart should concur.

Nice job Mr. Worsdale

Tom
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