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role of mars in marriage
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ojhawool



Joined: 14 Dec 2007
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Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:06 pm    Post subject: role of mars in marriage Reply with quote

how mars is consideredin western astrology so far as marriage is concerned.In Hindu astrology mars is not considered favourable if posited in House 1,4.7,12
ojhawool
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astrojin



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Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

The concept of kujadosha or mangaldosha or manglik does not exist in Western astrology.

Quote:
how mars is considered in western astrology so far as marriage is concerned


It doesn't! Unless Mars is somehow configured to:

1) the universal significator of marriage i.e. Venus
2) the accidental significator of marriage i.e. 7th house, 7th house ruler(s) or Lot(s) of marriages
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al Biruni says that Mars indicates marriage (page 251 Ascella paragraph 430), although divorce seems closer to Mars' nature.

Quote:
" ... In his share of human nature is ... fighting, dispute, pillage, anger, insults and curses, lies, informing against others, debauchery, rudeness, not keeping ones promise, making a false vow ..." The Beginning of Wisdom, Ibn Ezra ARHAT page 97


Sounds like a typical divorce to me.

Tom
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astrojin



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Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

Reminds me of Schnidt's Lecture on Meanings of Planets in Hellenistic astrology. Mars generally represents cutting and severing of all things and not just marriage.

Aries and Scorpio (both rule by Mars) are opposite to Libra and Taurus (both rule by Venus) AND their nature also also opposite (Venus - benefic, Mars - malefic), hence Venus and Mars have really opposite meanings.

Venus: principle of unification and pleasures (marriage being both of these amongst others)

Mars: principle of severing and sundering, hence means anything that cuts like sword, or divorce (sundering of relationship).
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J K Sharma



Joined: 23 Dec 2007
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Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:31 am    Post subject: Manglik Dosha Reply with quote

Hello friend,

In Vedic astrology, Manglik/Kuja Dosha sounds very importance but in practicle studies, I have noticed that any kind of malefic effect on 7th house or its lord results as disturbance in marriage or married life, depending on the strength of malefic effect. So, I suggest u to also look other planets like Sun, Rahu , ketu or saturn etc.
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astro-teacher



Joined: 11 Nov 2006
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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im going to go out on a limb here and suggest that this may have some greek mythology influence in its meaning. For everyone who doesnt know Greek mythology I will attempt to illustrate the point of why Mars would be a bad influence in marriages. The myth goes that Venus was married to Haphaestus (because Zeus didnt want anyone fighting over her because of her beauty - and here take note we have the marriage element). Being that Hephaestus wasnt the most handsome God in greek mythology (in fact I believe he was the least), Venus couldnt help herself to other men, those being Mars (Ares) and Adonis. Venus and Mars were caught and Hephaestus found out. So I can only assume that the detriment to marriage that Mars plays has probably some root in that myth. Possibly leading to the belief he causes infidelity? After reading this question this came to mind. Let me know your opinions.
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babushka



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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:02 pm    Post subject: Venus & Mars Reply with quote

That was very interesting astro teacher.

could you recommend some reading in this area?
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###



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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So I can only assume that the detriment to marriage that Mars plays has probably some root in that myth.


I would say that any root would be in the planetary qualities. Mars is hot and dry. Dry separates and severs; moist unites. Being a malefic Mars is a planet of excess, so Mars is best for the division of war. Moist and moderate Venus is a natural for marriage.
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astro-teacher



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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

babushka,

All Greek mythology is simply the personification natures occult virtues. Therefore, Aphrodite is the personification of the occult influences of the Planet Venus. Everything that Aphrodite represents falls under the influence of Venus (the Planet). The philosophers used mythology to show the influences of the stars and planets (among other things). Its no coincidence that Jupiter happens to be the Planet and god of thunder and storms Wink. As far as reading in the area, I would suggest reading the myths about each of the gods who are associated with the Planets. It may help you get a greater understanding of influence.

Kirk,

You are right, the Planetary qualities do play a role in determining the influence. However the Sun is also hot and dry, would you say its influence would do the same as Mars in marriage? The myth simply illustrates the influence of Mars with marriage. Venus is also moist and cold.[/i]
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###



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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
However the Sun is also hot and dry, would you say its influence would do the same as Mars in marriage?


It could under certain conditions – combustion, for example. Traditionally the Sun signified persons of power and/or rank. In more modern terms, the Sun is representative of the ego. Power, rank and ego don’t sound very appropriate for marriage. They can cause division by one spouse ‘reigning’ over the other. But the Sun can also bring an energizing heat and the ‘division’ can be the strength of the two separate individuals who aren’t lost in the identity of the other. The Sun doesn’t have nearly the malefic/excessive reputation of Mars in Western astrology. In electional work you often hear of putting Mars in a cadent house so he can’t cause much trouble. I don’t remember coming across that for the Sun.

Cold and moist Venus was warmed up to hot or warm and moist in Renaissance astrology. Ultimately she was considered to be moderate.

From what I’ve so far seen (still learning, you know), the early astrological works have little mythology in them. When you read Ptolemy, Dorotheus and the rest of the gang you don’t come across them telling mythological tales. They don’t tell us that such-and-such an astrological trait of Aphrodite/Venus is demonstrated in the tale where she .... And so forth. The qualities and tendencies of Jove/Jupiter, Mars/Ares, etc. are almost a silent, unspoken understanding. Everyone in Hellenistic times would have been familiar with them as stock characters, so those characters were a natural choice for astrology. But there appears to be little interest in going ‘one more time around’ with the tales from centuries earlier. In astrological work, Mars as hot and dry comes before any tale of his adventures.
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astro-teacher



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Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk,

Are you talking about the early (12th century) or late (14th-17th Century) reniassance? I have gone through my books to see if I can find what you state (Venus being moist and hot; the combination for temperateness) and I cant seem to find it. I do find that Gadburry states Venus is moist and cold. I would also like to point out the duality of the greater and lesser benevolents and malevolents being that;

Saturn = Cold & Dry
Jupiter = Hot & Moist

Mars = Hot & Dry
Venus = Cold & Moist

I cant seem to comprehend why Venus would be hot and moist when the system clearly illustrates a pattern. Isnt her coldness one reason that makes her a lesser fortune being she is not as temperate as Jupiter? Doesnt her coldness also proceed from the fact shes nocturnal? (with the exception of Mars who is also Nocturnal but the authors gives a few explainations for this). The only explaination as to how Venus could be temperate is if she was in Libra (whom is also hot and moist) and thus lending that quality to Venus.

John Partridge also states she is phlegmatic (being a temperament of coldness and moistness- whereas Jupiter is sanguine being hot and moist) and he also gives several references to her in mythology (ie Lucifer, Hesperus & etc.). He does say something interesting though, that when Venus is Oriental from the Sun she takes the qualities of Hot and Moist on, where as Occidental she is just moist. However this is only to be used in a chart (used in reference to health here) and not her natural qualities.

I have looked through a few other authors who echo these so im curious, which authors state her qualities as you say? Thanks for taking the time to explain this. The great thing about Astrology is there is always something new to learn.

PS: If this conversation is going to continue I would suggest we start a new thread being that this one is about Mars and marriage.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hellenistic Astrology

Curiously, I found nothing in Firmicus, Paulus, or Dorotheus that assigns elements to the planets. It may well be there, but I couldn’t find it.

Ptolemy says Venus is warm and moist.

Arabs

The Arab writers were not all Arab, but they are grouped as Arabs if they wrote in Arabic or, in Ibn Ezra’s case, in Hebrew.

Al Biruni says Venus is “towards moderate cold and moisture, the latter predominant.”

Ibn Ezra states that Venus is cold and moist.
Abu Ma ‘shar says Venus is cold and moist
Abu Ali Al Khayyat says nothing.

These are the limits of my personal library and if those volumes are representative, it is fair to say that the Arab writers are at odds with Ptolemy. As to why, I have no idea.

Later Authors,

Saunders does not make a flat out statement as the nature of Venus or any other planet. Instead he assigns to the planets the elements depending on what degree of a particular sign they happen to occupy. The diseases he lists that are associated with Venus are mostly associated with phlegm and therefore we might hazard a guess that he leans towards cold and moist.

Lilly says Venus is temperately cold and moist.

I could not find a direct reference in Culpepper’s Astrological Judgment of Diseases. Like Saunders he seems to allow circumstances to let this play out.

Morin says flat out that Venus is warm and moist and notes that both Ptolemy and Cardan say Venus is warm and moist. He vehemently disagrees with their reasoning, but not their conclusions. He also makes a curious statement in Book 13 of Astrologa Gallica:


Quote:
“It was prescribed by Ptolemy, and the more skilled of the astrologers taught by experience, that Venus is naturally hot and moist, but that moisture predominates in it.”


Morin does not cite the skilled astrologers, to whom he makes reference, and in most other places he seems to only refer to astrologers by name when he ridicules them, one assumes they are few and far between. He made at least one reference to Bonatti that was not sneering that I can recall in Book 21. He detested the Arabs, and certainly would not claim them to be “skilled astrologers.” Perhaps he was referring to Schoener. I don’t have any of Schoener’s works.

This admittedly limited survey indicates that the majority of the authorities side with the idea that Venus is cold and moist. Moisture is agreed upon by 100% of the older astrologers. So is she warm or cold? She embodies both sanguine characteristics as the planet of conciliation, and relationship, yet her desire for luxury is more likely to be associated with the phlegmatic.

Nor is rulership much of a guide. The luminaries rules signs of their own nature. The malefics rule a cardinal sign of their own nature. Mercury is usually cited as cold and dry, but Ptolemy gives Mercury more heat. Mercury rules cold and dry Virgo. If we make Venus warm and moist, she, too rules a cardinal warm and moist sign, Libra. But Jupiter throws a monkey wrench into this system as Jupiter is said to be warm and moist and rules warm and dry Sagittarius and cold and moist Pisces. Jupiter has no domicile with his nature. Morin solves this problem by stating that Jupiter is warm and dry and by making Venus warm and moist he has a perfectly consistent system. But if we insist that Jupiter is warm and moist then Venus can go either way and remain within a somewhat consistent system.

Morin’s system seems to be the only sensible way out. And since the medieval order of the cosmos is so consistent in so many ways, it’s hard to dismiss Morin on the grounds that he is the only one who thinks Jupiter is warm and dry. Besides, he thought almost everyone was wrong about almost everything with the notable exception of himself.

So where does this leave astrologers in the 21st century? Confused, as usual. I don’t have Dykes translation yet. I’ll probably end up with it some day. I’d like to see what Bonatti had to say about this little problem. I’d also like to know why so many Ptolemy lovers disagreed with him on this point. Maybe someone has some information on that topic as well.

Tom



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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

Bonatti's Book of Astronomy, Treatise 3 - Planets, (Page 170 of Ben Dyke's translation, top page):-

Quote:
And Venus works coldness and moisture through her own nature, with a moderate mixture
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astro-teacher



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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom,

Thank you for taking the time to look up the references I find them quite interesting. Something that caught my eye was the fact that Ptolemy & Morin, rather than using the extreme quality word, used a moderate word instead. For example, instead of using the term "Hot & Moist" the used the term "Warm & Moist". When describing the other Planets do they use similar terms? (Warm or Cool). What copy of Ptolemys Tetrabiblos are you using? Do you have the original Latin text by Morin or an English translation? Since the standard was to use Hot and Cold, I am unsure whether this was purposeful or a fault of the translator. This strikes me as odd because Ptolemy would know that the qualities were Hot and Cold not Warm and Cool (being a Greek) so I see it somewhat strange that he would use that specific term. Let me know your thoughts on this.
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish I had the time to answer these questions in depth, i.e. with references, links etc. They are highly relevant, but I can answer some of them. Oh and it is good to be back online. We lost the forum for a bit.

Quote:
Something that caught my eye was the fact that Ptolemy & Morin, rather than using the extreme quality word, used a moderate word instead.


This brings up two points that are worth pondering. I'm a little sloppy and I use "hot" at times and "warm" at other times as well as using "cold" and "cool," "wet" and "moist" interchangeably. A little consistency is probably in order as English is a very versatile language. What I believe to be true is that the traditional authors were consistent in the languages they wrote in, and people like me are just sloppy about it. However it should be noted that there are degrees of warmth and coolness, moisture and dryness. Mars, for example, is considered hotter and drier than the Sun. Jupiter is considered temperately warm and moist or if we follow Morin temperately warm and dry. The same is true of Venus. She is temperately warm and moist or cold and moist depending on how we use her, whereas the Moon is not temperately cold and moist. These little fine points are more than just semantics, and therefore, the astrologer should be judicious when describing the planets that way.

Yet another point is that I recall, vaguely, that we are not simply talking about temperature and humidity as we physically experience them. Saying Saturn is cold and dry is not just saying Saturn is below freezing and low in humidity. Saturn destroys because the quality of coldness and dryness breaks bonds. Pre-Enlightnement folks would have grasped this subtlety almost instantly, and our poor 21st century brains need an explanation.

We all know people who are "cold," yet we also know their body temperature is no colder than normal. Ditto people who are warm. We are all aware of a "dry sense of humor" and phlegmatic or "wet"people. The descriptions of the planets are meant that way, too.

I do believe Alan might be asking for some consistency, and I tend to agree with that sentiment, despite being one of the worst offenders.


Quote:
What copy of Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos are you using?


I have both Robbins and Ashmand. I don't have Schmidt's. I tend to use Ashmand more on the grounds he was an astrologer and Robbins was not. It's also true that the typeface is bigger in Ashmand's translation - a growing consideration.

Quote:
Do you have the original Latin text by Morin or an English translation?


I would love to have the Latin original and I suppose there are some out there. Old Astrology books used to be cheap, but one of the less pleasant (for the buyer) unintended consequences of the traditional revival is that booksellers suddenly realized there was a market for these old things and the prices jumped. I use the translations available from AFA. The translators are Baldwin, Holden, and most recently Anthony LaBruzza aka Tony Louis of Horary Astrology Plain and Simple fame. I also own Lucy Little's translation of volume 21. This is a handsome volume, hardbound, and contains some extras that make it more attractive than Baldwin's translation which AFA just stapled together. But Baldwin's is considered the better translation as he worked with the original Latin, and Little translated from a French translation which doesn't seem to be of the same quality as Baldwin's translation into English. It's still good though.

However for those who wish to dabble in Latin, here is a full page by page photographs (zoomable) of Astrologia Gallica in its original glory:

http://www.vkol.cz/~petros/astrol/morin.htm

Free, too.

Happy New Year.

Tom
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