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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Responses to Glenn Perry's article in the NCGR newsletter
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3496
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. I've got someone who agrees with me a lot. Halleleujah.

Quote:
The country, culture, religion and economic circumstances one is born to, the educational opportunities, one's physical beauty (yes, it is an advantage in most places)


Yes it is. All sorts of studies show that people who are considered better than average looking are more likely to get a job offer than better qualified people who do not have the same good looks. It doesn't always work that way, but it is an advantage, as socio-economic background is an advantage and a higher level of education is an advantage. There is such a thing as prestige and rightly or wrongly it has effects.

Quote:
Every astrologer, regardless of the techniques or philosophical perspective, always engages with the native's biography and in doing so implicitly acknowledges "cause" which is a form of determinism.


I was talking about this in a different context earlier in the week. The chart is static, but the native's life is not. The chart is read, by moderns and traditionalists within a particular context. By reading the chart that way, determinism tends to take a hike. The example I used was tennis player/activist Arthur Ashe. No astrologer would have looked at Ashe's chart, directions, returns etc, when Ashe was a child and said: "This young man will win Wimbledon in 1975."

Given Ashe's background growing up in a poor area of Richmond, Virginia in the 1940s this would have been laughable. However if Ashe went to an astrologer in say 1972, it would not be out of line for an astrologer, knowing that in 1972 Ashe was a top flight player capable of being the world's No. 1 male player, he might well have looked at the same chart and same returns and said; "You know, if you work at it you have a good shot at winning Wimbledon in 1975. " The difference is context. In the first example Ashe was a child and had yet to think one minute about tennis. In the second he was a tennis force to be reckoned with so winning Wimbledon is a legitimate prediction.

This is not the fatalism that Perry is talking about. He would have his readers believe that traditional astrologers routinely do things as suggested by the first example. I don't know who Perry is thinking of, but I don't know anyone who does that.


Quote:
So, I think that the whole determinism argument is red herring and distracts from the "real" point of Perry's (and Tarnas's) "arguments" which is that their techniques are better.


Bullseye!

Quote:
So, it could be argued that Perry is projecting his own disowned hopeless fatalism onto his clients when he refuses to even make suggestions as to how a client might negotiate with a difficult transit.


Yes and projection is a defense mechanism employed when one's world view is crumbling. We all use defense mechanisms, but when the defense mechanism becomes the world view it is a problem. Could it be that Perry sees his world view or astrology-view is crumbling?

Quote:
From my reading of the articles on his website, he seems to be making the argument that it would be unethical for an astrologer to intervene in any way in a client's 'fate."


Too much Star Trek watching.

Quote:
one would think that at least as a historian, he would be particularly interested in the history of astrology--


Historians rarely show an interest in astrology. This is one reason so many texts were lost. It is considered an old superstition. Tester might be the academic who turned this around a bit. Neugebauer got there first, but I wonder, I don't know, if other academics took his suggestion to learn astrology in order to understand the ancient world. But even Tester (A History of Western Astrology)seems to have underestimated the importance and influence of astrology until the Enlightenment.

The bright spot is that there is a small but growing interest in astrology among historians. According to Rob Hand it attracts because it is an area that is largely unexplored or looked at a bit more cynically, it is one of the few things left for a PhD candidate to study.



Quote:
that it is primitive and unevolved because it is old.


On a personal note I am tired of hearing the word "evolved" or its derivitives. The speaker or writer may as well be honest and substitute "good" and "bad." Their arguments are that shallow.. It's a buzz word.

“the greatest lie of all in the sciences and metaphysics: that we are the product of a process of maturation, in which all our knowledge is superior to that of all other cultures; and that we have refined ourselves out of and beyond most of the nonsense that held back previous cultures.” -- John Morrill

Tom
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robin



Joined: 15 Aug 2007
Posts: 47

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

does anyone have a link for the perry article?

i couldn't find it on the NCGR website

thanks

robin
________
ROLL A JOINT


Last edited by robin on Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tom
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As florenced reported previously, it isn't published online, but one can get the flavor of it from rpevious articles he's published on his website.

http://www.aaperry.com/index.asp?pgid=62

Tom


Last edited by Tom on Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Andrew



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 360

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As florenced reported previously, it isn't published online, but one can get the flavor of it from previous articles he's published on his website.


See:

http://www.aaperry.com/index.asp?pgid=51

See:

Quote:
I am not inclined to help my clients control or exploit their fate. I am interested in helping them learn from it. Accordingly, my ethics prevent me from advising clients on how to take advantage of a transit for personal gain or profit.


But:

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When counseling clients, my guiding value is to empower them, not to take their power away by presuming to know who they should marry, where they should live, or what career they should have.


Again:

Quote:
I am not inclined to help my clients


But:

Quote:
My guiding value is to empower them


"I don't help: I empower."

A difference which reflects a distinction between assistance and influence.

Andrew
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GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 451
Location: USA

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"I don't help: I empower."


To give the more obvious paraphrase, "I don't keep to my fiduciary duty to my clients; I just want to be their shiny vanilla guru while lightening their wallets."
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Gabe
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florenced



Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 18

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And just plain cold hearted. Or lazy. Because if an astrologer (or a psychologist, which is where Perry supposedly has some "real" training) is not even willing to explore practical OPTIONS with the issue which is concerning the client....then where the hell is the potential "empowerment?" Because it really sounds like what Perry does is confine himself to telling the client just how screwed up (neurotic and childish) he or she is. Kind of the way he does other astrologers.

Like I said before, it is bad astrology AND psychology.
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Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 454

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My one experience with ISAR (Glenn Perry's clique) left me cold. They sat there in their suits and pronounced on astrological ethics. Sick The truth is that ISAR is a joke. They failed to follow through on their commitment to mail out certificates to those in attendance. And one of the ISAR presenters had to be forced to honour her commitment to donate a reading as a conference door prize. The woman who won it had to resort finally to speaking to the conference organizer before this "ethical astrologer" honoured her commitment.

Tara
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woodwater



Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 151
Location: lisbon

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

funny that you talk about NCGR. Alphee Lavoie, the webmaster, did my ACG but whe i asked him certain questions he gave me vague answers like « i use 200 criteria to judge an ACG» etc etc
Well it happens that my home town is suposed to be good for nothing but the holiday home Faro , slightly southeast is good for work as you can see in the links. The chart is practically the same. Only the MC changes by 1 degree. Do you notice anything??



http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?go.x=18&rs=3&btyp=w2gw&cid=mjzfilejWSrwy-u1139065103&go.y=9&nhor=79030023&go.x=21&go.y=9

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?go.x=18&rs=3&btyp=w2gw&cid=mjzfilejWSrwy-u1139065103&go.y=9&nhor=427521&go.x=10&go.y=9
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Tom
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Posts: 3496
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"I don't help: I empower."

A difference which reflects a distinction between assistance and influence.


Seems to me this is a distinction without a difference.

Tom
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