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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Does Gender alter the way we read a chart?
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Finland

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Gender in a chart Reply with quote

Julie K wrote:
Have you ever looked into Ancient - Medieval Astrology? Looking at the wheel of life, the Ancients gave Rulership of House 4 - Cancer - to the Moon, and Rulership of 5th House - Leo - to the Sun.


This is quite an unbelievable comment indeed. Julie, associating signs and houses this way is a modern invention called "astrological alphabet". The founder of Faculty of Astrological Studies school in London, Margaret Hone, promoted it strongly and that's possibly one reason why it has such a large following today. Also Dane Rudhyar loved the idea.

Medieval astrologers didn't associate signs (or their rulers) with houses except when talking about body parts, but it was limited only there. And they definitely didn't give dignity to Mars in the 8th house! Mars has his joy in the 6th house and has accidental dignity there, and that's accidental only.

Many astrologers in the Hellenistic era promoted a Thema Mundi chart or "World Horoscope", where Cancer is the first house, Leo is the second etc. That would give the 8th house to Aquarius (but it still doesn't mean that Saturn would be dignified in the 8th house!). Those astrologers used this chart as a teaching device in the same way that modern astrologers now teach their students "Aries = 1st house; Taurus = 2nd house...". You can find an article about Thema Mundi for example here http://planetwavesweekly.com/dadatemp/1832374392.html .
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Julie K



Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 378
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:39 am    Post subject: Gender in a chart Reply with quote

yuzuru,

My question was not meant to be provocative, I asked a simple question. There is no need to caution me as to what to say or how to ask a valid question. So your answer would be a No?

Papretis,

My comments are very believable. I have beside me a book by J. Lee Lehman ' Classical Astrology for Modern Living'- From Ptolemy to Psychology and Back Again'.

J.Lee Lehman is a well noted and acclaimed American Medievalist and teacher of Ancient Astrology. She is extremely well known and has studied and written a number of books.

Page 86 discussing Essentail Dignities and debilities: whole Sign types. Points value given as per Lilley.

Mars rates 5 points if placed in Aries or Scorpio.

Mars is in Detriment in its polarities, ie. Libra and Taurus. In rulership Planets have Power, in Exaltation persuasion, in Triplicity are lucky, in Term competency and in Face fear.

This is getting down to the pure essence of Astrology as it was set down in Ancient days.

This is not a 'modern invention' by any means. I have not heard of Margaret Hone or the Faculty of Astrological Studies' in London. But this in no way is meant to demean Margaret Hone or the School.

Medical Astrology is indeed another field.

Be Well,

Julie K
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Julie,

Mars does rule Scorpio, the 8th sign. But the 8th sign is not the same as the 8th house. Signs do not equal houses. That idea started creeping in around the 16th or 17th century - mostly in medical astrology, I believe - and really took hold in the 20th. Now it's a mess, or was until Deb swooped in with her cape and emblazoned 'D' and cleared it up for the world. She looked a little silly, but got the idea across. (She may not have single-handedly straightened it out for the world, but this is the way I prefer to view history.) I hope they can get Madonna to play Deb in the movie.


Last edited by ### on Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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Julie K



Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 378
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:43 am    Post subject: Gender in a chart Reply with quote

Kirk,

Each House has its own 'affairs' - just a way of puting it. Each Sign has its own meanings, and each planet similarly.

Just as Mars is accidently dignified in the 1st house so Mars is accidently dignified when placed in the 8th House.

My original post, which appeared to 'rock gthe boat' was a manner of a simple way of explaining how the Ancients sat around a table - or wheel - and gave out Rulerships in order of placements from the Sun outwards.

I had a skilled Medieval teacher and she used the KISS principle always. I was simply doing much the same.

I have no problem with spirited Astrological debate even to those debating getting a little 'hot under the collar'.

Be Well,

Julie K
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My original post, which appeared to 'rock gthe boat' was a manner of a simple way of explaining how the Ancients sat around a table - or wheel - and gave out Rulerships in order of placements from the Sun outwards.

That was a wheel of signs, not houses.


Quote:
Just as Mars is accidently dignified in the 1st house so Mars is accidently dignified when placed in the 8th House.

Go for it! To each his (or her) own. But the statement in your earlier post is flat out wrong: “Mars is the Ancient Ruler of the 8th therefore Mars has dignity placed in the 8th House”. Ancient ruler of the 8th? No! You can't have that one.


Quote:
I have no problem with spirited Astrological debate even to those debating getting a little 'hot under the collar'.

I forgive you.
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Julie K



Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 378
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:13 am    Post subject: Gender in a chart Reply with quote

Kirk,

We have to agree to disagree! That's ok by me. Cool

Unos Salos Vistas.

Julie K
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Gender in a chart Reply with quote

Julie K wrote:
Kirk,

We have to agree to disagree! That's ok by me. Cool

Unos Salos Vistas.

Julie K


Lee was either talking about the wheel of signs or talking about whole sign houses. I don't remember right now. Either way she is correct, and you are wrong.

If Lee was walking about the wheel of signs, then you are wrong since she isn't talking about houses.

If she was talking about whole signs, even though house = sign is more direct in that system, the logic isn't a whole lot different than quadrant houses in the sense that the signs still rotated around the chart. So, Mars will only rule the 8th if Scorpio or Aries happen to rule that house.

You can't read part of one book and make sweeping statements like that!

Edit: I have Lee's books and I like them. But from reading your quote, I still don't understand where you get your statement. This passage just looks like something about Mars' essential dignity.
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Finland

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Gender in a chart Reply with quote

Julie K wrote:
Page 86 discussing Essentail Dignities and debilities: whole Sign types. Points value given as per Lilley.

Mars rates 5 points if placed in Aries or Scorpio.

Mars is in Detriment in its polarities, ie. Libra and Taurus. In rulership Planets have Power, in Exaltation persuasion, in Triplicity are lucky, in Term competency and in Face fear.

This is getting down to the pure essence of Astrology as it was set down in Ancient days.

Julie, Lehmann is not talking about houses here, she's talking about signs. "Whole sign types" means probably those dignites which are defined by whole signs (rulership, exaltation, triplicity) in comparison to those dignities that are defined by degrees (bounds, faces), it has nothing to do with houses.

Kirk wrote:
Now it's a mess, or was until Deb swooped in with her cape and emblazoned 'D' and cleared it up for the world. She looked a little silly, but got the idea across. (She may not have single-handedly straightened it out for the world, but this is the way I prefer to view history.) I hope they can get Madonna to play Deb in the movie.

Yes, me too Smile . She has probably done more than anyone else to clear up this confusion.
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Arihant



Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 66
Location: INDIA

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Happy Valentine , Dear Julie, Laughing

Cheer up your spirits ! Friends here, are trying to show me that they are not likely to be affected here , by Gender , while pointing out a mistake , so continously & with such consistency

Oh, how do I air , my despair , its so unfair of so many of you to tear a fair one on a Valentine’s ,here! Looks like she wrongly wired the launching circuit of this satellite like so precious a Astrology Model Ship, which we all so painstakingly build over the years to present it to ET from the other world., and what better way could be to use such exacting passion we felt ,other than to make up our face loss, by irking her also! Secret

Coming to this effect of gender ,while reading a chart..,Firstly , even , if I would be an Professional Astrologer , wouldn’t I want to know as best as I can about my Client’s ..whether he ‘s smartly dressed or not , what his body language , does he shuffles or shift his eye while talking ; wouldn’t I do a William Benham & grasp his hand & see how elastic his fingers are , is his thumb not clubbed ? Many a women , at my side of Continent , do with Sun Sign Astrology only & a few , even if ,they be knowing Jupiter is transiting their house 5 , would wait eternally ,in their dreams , for Prince Charming to come & rescue from their limiting surroundings! And when , I be literally ,cajoling such . to talk more with your friends, who are appreciating you these days…I don’t think I would be so passionate with men , likewise!

Secondly , we all are human beings first ! We are not robots & there is ample circumstances which can make our chart reading (biased), in favour of a person or gender. . And these days , many have learnt through self-study & by hop-skip & jump various web-sites. Rare is the Class of Astrologers who could dispassionately and in a detached & unbiased manner , go about reading the charts & also end –up genuinely guiding clients to their eventual welfare…so are Mystic/psychic types , but then, they don’t even need look up at the chart & still touch your aching heart!
But you cannot count more than 1000 such & just make a ratio with billions of population in the world.

Thirdly , I am just wondering & I have, really no idea , if any Astrologer , can ever be like this,.Delienating chart , aspects & intrepretations is a function of Mind , its seems so unlikely on paper ,that any pervert acquiring this Sacred Knowledge , would read all chart detachedly.

Fourthly ,. preponderance of planets in 12 house of an Astrologers chart, can show a sort of afflicted Clients( a common group) , coming for counseling , in a same way , as .particular group of patients going to a Dentist .Now, its quite possible , this astrologers have , unwantedly got a set of sensitive clients of a fix gender & over a period of time he has learnt to deal with this lot in a special manner.

Fifthly , go backwards. Lets see , like 7H denotes type of people coming in your life , house 9 or Jupiter can indicate Higher teacher or Guide /Counseller /Astrologer.
Can we take this means , what type of Astrologers , you shall get!
If could study/interview these specific Astrologers of a client , we can get first hand account , whether he/she was partial/sensitive or read differently this client.

Lastly , I can give you my own example…I am no Astrologer , but ruler of Asc, Neptune in 9 , Saggatarius Mid-Heaven , Uranus –Pluto in 7H trines to Murcury Mars conjunction at house 3 , & Gemini moon , do instill this SEEKER…as one very good Astrologer told me …(and I am partial to women , like I just find it hard to digest , most of us Pestering Julie here , in Public forum.) and this very Wise Astrologer , also wondered , if I am practising Hindu…Invoking / worshippingGoddess/Shakti , which I am not , but I had to reply , yes Moon , in so close to my 5H cusp in cancer is separting from sextile of Jupiter & applying to Venus …and i do feel & wonder.. its Gods Grace or how Sweet Angels , choose to visit & live in my house as two beautiful daughters….real source of joy! Ando also , at that forum , when I posted my chart , I now wonder , your chart attracts the type of astrologers you shall get, as 80% of astrologers who responded are female & some are Pisces.
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh281/Arihant2/astro_245gw_01_arihant_199611142-1.gif

please rush your comments

Regards to all & best wishes!
Arihant
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Colleen



Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Posts: 1
Location: Disney World

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oops
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Julie K



Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 378
Location: Australia

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:06 am    Post subject: Gender in a chart Reply with quote

Arihant,

Thanks - I could not rush my response any faster.

I take no issue with the comments of others at all. They have not been insulting or demeaning in any way towards me. We are all here to discuss Astrology and to learn.

I do my best to live by the Toltec Wisdoms four Agreements.

Be Impeccable with Yor Word.

Dont Take Anything Personally.

Dont Make Assumptions.

Always do your best.

Unos Salos Vistas. Smile

Julie K
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Oh, how do I air , my despair , its so unfair of so many of you to tear a fair one on a Valentine’s ,here! Looks like she wrongly wired the launching circuit of this satellite like so precious a Astrology Model Ship, which we all so painstakingly build over the years to present it to ET from the other world., and what better way could be to use such exacting passion we felt ,other than to make up our face loss, by irking her also!


I don’t know what to do with this. I’m stunned, really. Nearly speechless – fortunately never completely so.

Poetry?

As she launched the satellite’s precious circuit,
So wrongly a Model Ship she aspired to fire,
Our painstaking task of years transpired
Has come to naught, for fear that she again be irkèd.


Hell, I don't know.
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But such exacting passion had its way
To force us on to face our loss
Of what she gave to far ET and those
Who couldn’t wait another day.



You know, I think this really is a lot more fun than babbling on about astrology.
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4962
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Julie,

The view you expressed about houses=signs is mainstream in modern astrology nowadays. A good representative example on the bookshelves is Howard Sasportas's book 'The Twelve Houses'. However, research has shown that the houses have a quite different historical origin to the sequence to the signs.

I strongly recommend you read Deb Houlding's book 'Houses : Temples of the Sky'. This was the first book to shatter the view of modern astrology that houses were about signs. While the signs move through the zodiac in a an anti-clockwise direction it seems the ancient symbolism of the houses is largely orginated with the visual, diurnal movement of the planets through the houses in a clockwise direction (ie against the order the zodiac). After all why would death come (8th house) before you reach your career height? (10th house) Its nonsensical isn't it? On the other hand following the diurnal movement of a planet we see it sinking down near to desc where it will symbolically die. Historically the IC is the end of a matter because the planet was felt to be in the heart of the underworld. After this point it starts its slow climb towards rebirth at the ASC.

This was the view of ancient cultures like the Ancient Egyptians and Babylonians which was passed on to Greek astrology. The house origin of the strength of houses are also linked to their visibility from the ASC. So the twelfth house is weak or cadent not because its the last house but because its the first house after a planet rises on the horizon. Such planets and stars can be very hard to observe before they rise higher in the sky.

Deb has updated her book with new information. I cannot recommend the book highly enough. It will repay the cost many times over. In fact it will revolutionise your view of astrology!

best wishes

Mark
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recommend you read the book that tells of temples of the sky
And signs that move through space and time, a clock that points the way.
Nonsensical it seems, and yet diurnal motion has its sway
And all will pass the shifting peak and find the closing of its day.




Lala Happy Ok, I think I'm done now.
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