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Please clear my concept!

 
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Arihant



Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 66
Location: INDIA

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:25 am    Post subject: Please clear my concept! Reply with quote

I am unable to understand this " precession of Equinoxes" ...on a practical level , we are accepting Sun , on March 21 is actually in constellations of Pisces or so , but we consider it Mathematically on zero degress of Aries. Right!

Say further 500 years more , Sun shall be in a entirely different constellation on Match 21 ,...can it be justified , if we continue to give the same interpretation of Sun in Aries....even then!

i understand due to various magnetic & other radiations coming out of constellations decides the flavour of Linbra , gemini , taurus....and Ancient Astrologers , have after all , painstakingly observed & experimented...than formed written characteristics of any Planet say Saturn in Leo....but when wholes star system is receding..soon Saturn be no longer in that very Constellation ...which gave it just that befitting description...How long can we hold on to these copy- book Manifestation of Saturn in Leo...when after 500 years , Saturn shall be anywhere except in that same constellations!

Any basic method of analysis or understanding this ...precession of Equinoxes....& how We Astrologers , have adjusted to it...any insight..shall be greatly appreciated!
Regards to all!
Sincerely,
Arihant.


Last edited by Arihant on Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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Minderwiz



Joined: 10 Jul 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Wigan, Lancs

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand your confusion - this aspect of astrology confuses many people and is often used by astronomers to cast doubt on Astrology. The key issue is the way in which the Sun and planets progress throught the heavens is measured.

From the earlest time that it was observed that the Sun and planets moved in relation to the stars there has been an attempt to measure that movement and use it for predictions. One key thing to be predicted is the change of the seasons, the coming of Spring in particular. We have considerable evidence that the Spring and Autumn equinoxes and the Summer and Winter Solstices played both a vital religious and practical role in ancient societies.

If we take the Zodiac as a measuring device for the progress of Sun and planets (and indeed any other observable heavenly phenomena) then the most useful way of fixing the Zodiac for ancient cultures is probably in relation to the equinoxes and solstices. Indeed the Zodiac most used by Western astrologers uses the Spring equinox (in the Northern Hemisphere) as its starting point and is known as the Tropical Zodiac.

Around the time that Astrology began to be codified and developed, fitst by the Babylonians and then by the Greeks, the Spring Equinox occured against the background of the constellation Aries.

However using the constellations as a measuring device proved arkward, because they are not of equal size and their are gaps between them in some places and they overlap in others. The system of Signs overcomes these problems by dividing the Zodiac into twelve equal segments of 30 degrees each but measured from the Spring Equinox. The names of the signs are taken from the names of the constellations , with some slight differences - the constellations of Scorpius and Capricornus becoming Scorpio and Capricorn in the system of Signs. It is important to understand that Signs are not constellations, they are a method of plotting positions accurately.

When the system of Signs was developed the Spring Equinox occured agains the backdrop of the Constellation Aries, so the starting point became known as the Aries point and the first sign of the Tropical Zodiac was known as Aries.

Unfortunately the equinoxes are not fixed in relation to the stellar background. This is due to slight variations in the path of the Earth on its orbit around the Sun, the effect of which is to shift the apparant position of the equinoxes by about 1 degree every 72 years. Over about 2000 years this moves the stellar background into the preceding constellation - the precession of the equinoxes.

This is the first time in history that this has become an issue for Astrologers - when the Spring Equinox moved from Gemini into Taurus and from Taurus into Aries, Astrology did not use signs, nor was it particularly well developed.

Although it is probable that the Greeks knew about precession in classical times, the system of signs has not been changed to reflect the changes at constellation level. The signs are measured from the Spring Equinox and this is still defined as Zero Aries - though Astrologers know full well that this point does not correspond to a point in the consetellation Aries.

Vedic Astrologers (mainly based in India) did keep to the stellar Zodiac and use a system known as the Sidereal Zodiac - the Zodiac based on the starts. However even their system does not correspond exactly with the constellations, they still use equal Signs of thirty degrees but the zero point actually is in the constellation Aries. Under the sidereal zodiac the Spring Equinox occurs in the sign of Pisces.

Clearly there are many issues that this raises in terms of approach to Astrology and in a single post I've not really got the space to explore them - so hopefully others may wish to add to this thread, to deal with some of the other issues you raise.
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Arihant



Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 66
Location: INDIA

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beautiful Mindrwiz , your reply has aroused my interest further!
I am already in fascination with Astrology...i marvel at its subtle & intelligent indications & wonder how it works...its nothing less than coded signature of working of higher controllings in our Cosmos !

You have very lucidly explained everything....how during times of early nomenclature in Astrology , the Spring Equinox occured against the background of the constellation Aries.

But how 'first -time ' in history, this this has become an issue for Astrologers ! do you mean . no one had ever meditated over this..or we are taking things for granted ..when you say, 'the Spring Equinox moved from Gemini into Taurus and from Taurus into Aries"

Can you please elaborate on this also..." Astrology did not use signs, nor was it particularly well developed"

Well, dreaminess of Pisces Sun or Freedom loving adventure of Saggitarius Sun , superficialty of gemini Moon..etc are so accurate of our present tropical system...i just love these interpretations from this particular school of Western...i wonder can't we just propose , for the time being , Mathematical starting points of 12 signs are holding good , in todays context , at least for Sun & Moon. May be House position & aspects between planets show more powerful effects in a horoscope ...than merer functioning of rest of the planets through a Sign!

Anyway any insight , that would show how Astrology actually works is always welcome to me ...Oh ! its so thrilling to find out!

i am very comfortable with Tropical analysis...i readily start believing in how grandiose your Leo Love nature is , when Jupiter is in Leo in a Natal chart..(.& it may be due to additional Trines from Venus & moon)...i also only want to know , further 1000 years more ..interpretation shall be on the same fundamental principles ..as in today.
Come on ! We are also directly applying conclusions arrived in Astrology till 350 years back(minimum)

Regarding this Vedic or Sideral system , i have often found , that they are for their 11 house rising(Kumbh or Aquarius )..much similarity is there with what we say about Pisces rising & their Virgo moon interpretation matches our Libra Sun Sign ...so somehow this difference has been taken care of.
But interpretation of other Planets in signs is really varying.

We can take , Jupiter in Mathematical sign of Leo , but its not exactlythere where it was when its standard description to this effect was first written.Of course, over the years , descriptions have been improved upon & new insights have been added to...may be this is how we all are evolving!

thank you for your reply , Minderwiz!
Regards & best wishes ,
Arihant

I
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Finland

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arihant wrote:
Regarding this Vedic or Sideral system , i have often found , that they are for their 11 house rising(Kumbh or Aquarius )..much similarity is there with what we say about Pisces rising & their Virgo moon interpretation matches our Libra Sun Sign ...so somehow this difference has been taken care of.


Hi Arihant,

yes, that's true. One cannot readily apply Western tropical descriptions on the sidereal zodiac. But there's some evidence that it may be the tropical sign descriptions that have been somewhat altered over the centuries. I referred to this in the discussion about Aquarius http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3122 , how Valens' (Greek astrologer from the 2nd century) descriptions of the signs would often seem to apply better to the following sign. Valens didn’t see Leo as an especially grandiose sign, to our surprise he said that Leo despises flattery. According to Valens, it’s Cancer who is “theatrical” and “fond of pleasure and entertaining”. Neither did Valens see Pisces as a dreamy sign, but he said that Pisces is “full of eruptions”, “restless, rough”, “sociable”, a “cause of wandering”, “erotic”, “licentious” and “popular”. On the tropical zodiac that sounds more like the following sign, Aries.

Also in sidereal Vedic astrology (if you read Indians, not Western Vedic astrologers) it’s usually Aquarius who’s the most mystic sign of the zodiac, not Pisces. For example B.V. Raman writes about people with Aquarius rising: “Natives of Aquarius are reserved, they are peevish when provoked, generous hearted, highly sympathetic and are always bent upon helping others”. He also says that Aquarians are sometimes timid, and feel shy to exhibit their talents before new audiences. For a Western tropical astrologer this description has clear Piscean overtones. Contemporary Western astrologers see Aquarius somewhat differently, emphasizing Aquarian rebelliousness and well, how should I put it, detachment from the rest of humanity.

Tropical Air in general is seen as a detached, aloof, intellectual, theoretical and conceptual element, who’s more interested in ideas than personal one-to-one relationships. But traditionally Air is described as a warm and moist element. Isn’t there a contradiction? We talk about “dry intellect” or “cold analysis”, and detachment from people is definitely more a “cold” thing than a “warm” one. “Warmth” is associated with loving to be with others, approaching others with arms wide open, showing compassion, etc. And Jupiter is classified as an Airy planet in traditional Western astrology, which fits well with friendliness and generousness.

But does it fit seamlessly with the picture we nowadays have about tropical Air? In my opinion, not perfectly. Earth, traditionally classified as a cold and dry element, precedes Air and sidereal Earth today has most of tropical Air in it. Could it be, that it’s actually sidereal Earth that is a cold and dry element, having qualities that are usually associated with Air on the tropical zodiac in modern Western astrology? That would also explain why Mercury has traditionally such a strong connection with Earth (not with Air as modern Western astrologers like to see it!)

Though Vettius Valens defined sigs as slices of 30 degrees, he measured them according to the fixed stars. It seems that some of the Arabic astrologers 600 years later were still using a sidereal zodiac, and those were the astrologers who strongly influenced medieval Western astrologers, though these were already shifted to the tropical zodiac, possibly because Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos advocating the tropical zodiac was translated in Latin in the early 2nd millenium. But is that sift actually the reason why those Western astrologers, who first start to study traditional techniques and rulerships, find it so strange that Saturn rules Aquarius and Jupiter rules Pisces – or that Jupiter is actually an Airy planet, and Mercury is most often described Earthy by nature; or that Saturn signifies slaves, illnesses, filth and poverty (“oh but how about those business-like Capricorns with their chalk stripe suits?? Isn’t Saturn about the 10th house, being materialistically shrewd and successful? You simply cannot be a Capricorn and live under the bridge!! No, the world has changed, our astrology must change too, forget those medieval concepts, they don't fit with the modern world...”)

Sorry about touching a controversial subject, but I think that the zodiac issue is something that should be seriously looked at, especially among us traditionalists.
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Arihant



Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 66
Location: INDIA

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vow! Vow!
What a day is today, for me! Getting to read beautiful replies , wonderful analyses , Oh ! thank you so much , Dear Papretis , you have truly thrilled me and made my day ! Oh, what a read! really

Wish , you would be more forthcoming how you are feeling about , say when telling your friend , well ..your area for seeking personal growth
in this birth , since North Node in Capricorn in house five, means you have to analyse how your disciplined efforts have paid -off...( when you are just aware that in fact NN , is somewhere else than in Capricorn!)

I mean ...i am just hoping an authoritative statement would come ..and we can safely assume that Mathematical division of Zodiac is one which gives correct interpretation ..like , we can take Jupiter in Leo ( mathematically) and interpret the natal chart , without ever bothering in which star cluster Jupiter is exactly & whether for this placement , what far Wise ancient sages/astrologers have written!

Is this so simple??

Whether you erct a chart with siderad/ tropical methods , but end up mentioning dreamy - disposition ; we with our analysis of pisces house & they through planets in aquarius..its all fine as indeed we are all describing a Rose! ...here say Jupiter is at a unique position in Cosmos , but due to our relative positions , i am saying its in Pisces & they are saying it is in aquarius , but indicating roughly same results...so far ...so good!



But , here entire star , solar system is receding ...say in 5000 years Jupiter shall be in a entirely new constellation...but whether we then would be saying Jupiter owing to cyclic /periodical rotation , shall be in same position , justifiable for Jupiter in Pisces analysis , for example.?
as 5000 years back..would our analysis shall be same then?

i meam what Minderwiz has already referred to...that we Astrologers are facing this dilemma ..(first time in history) and some one like ..say announcements from above..from Messengers of God need to come clear.and saying..that is how it should be..??

My mind is wobbling...i hope i am not transmitting this confusion!

Anyway thanks ..to you all ; nice readings , time well -spend!
Regards to all!
Arihant
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Minderwiz



Joined: 10 Jul 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Wigan, Lancs

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I said that the issue of precession was something that had not been addressed by Astrologers before, I meant that Astrology as we know it is a product of the last two thousand to three thousand years - I mean an organised and systematic approach to Astrology, not simply a religious or astronomical approach. The signs themselves were largely the product of the Babylonians, though the degree to which this is so is open to argument.

At the time the Signs were developed the Spring equinox occured in Aries and the Tropical and Sidereal zodiacs were effectively the same. From around the thrid century of the modern era the two zodiacs have diverged as precession has taken the Spring equinox back into Pisces as measured by the constellations or the Sidereal Zodiac. The divergence is only occuring slowly but after a considerable period it becomes clearly noticable. Now arguably it is the Tropical Zodiac - the cycle of equinoxes and solstices, which is the foundation to Astrology (and I recognise that this is a very controversial point), so I see no problem in keeping to the Tropical Zodiac,. However in so doing we are using titles for signs that are out of synch with the constellations or the sidereal zodiac. It's now virtually impossible to change the names of the signs because of the even greater confusion we would cause. So long as the user knows wihch zodiac he or she is dealing with, I think we can get by quite easily.

On the issue of the change in the meanings of signs, I tend to feel that the modern Astrologers have changed the meanings to fit thier view of the sign rulers. If you believe that Aquarius is ruled by Uranus (I don't) then its tempting to make the sign fit the ruler. Especially so if you believe (wrongly, in my view) that sign rulership is a function of affinity. There is also a tendency amongst modern Astrologers to conflate Houses, Signs and Planets. I don't see rational analysis as being a sign characteristic, I see it as being a planetary characteristic. If you associate rational analysis with Mercury, then it is cold and dry because Mercury is a cold and dry planet (like Saturn but not quite as cold and not quite as dry). Yes, Mercury does rule the Air Triplicity but does so by night - and it's colder at night.

Now like Papretis, I have touched on controversial issues and ones which are good to discuss. I don't see myself as any more than a person interested in Astrology, so I'm not claiming that my views are in anyway authorative. I'm here to learn like many others.
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Arihant



Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 66
Location: INDIA

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But somehow I am feeling , and i dont know also , how correct I am that

... it does not matter much , that your saturn is in Aries , Taurus or pisces ...Rather its house position & how strongly it is aspected ( or unaspected) in a natal chart...this is more crucial.

But same canot be said about , Sun and Moon...may be Sun is so powerful (its magnetic rays , radiations etc) are coloured more significantly against the background of the constellation in which it is transting..& Moon , owing to its proximity to Earth ...Both are capable of affecting us far more significantly through sign positions...compared to heavier Planets!

Still , if background of Constellation shall change aprreciably over 2000 years...how come Sun/Moon intepretation through the signs have got no fundamental changes , here in our system , with which we are comfortable in I ntrepreting a chart!

However , i should clarify , I myself subscribe to assigning zero degrees Aries to Spring Equinox and invaraibly greatly enjoy & agree to all intrepretations which result from this Plantary positions..
My post , in no way be viewed judgementally...just academic discussion!
Thanks..i hope more should be forthcoming soon!
Regards ,
Arihant
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arihant wrote:
But somehow I am feeling , and i dont know also , how correct I am that

... it does not matter much , that your saturn is in Aries , Taurus or pisces ...Rather its house position & how strongly it is aspected ( or unaspected) in a natal chart...this is more crucial.
Arihant


Actually it matters very much which sign all of the planets are in including the Sun and Moon - not just house placement.

In traditional astrology, degree and sign placement is the basis of the essential dignities and debililties, where house placement is one of the accidental dignities and debilites. How you deal with these depends on what you are doing.

For a simple example, Saturn will behave very differently if it's in Capricorn than if it's in Leo, regardless of which house it's in. However, the house placement also affects the overall effect of Saturn in this example. So Saturn in Leo will be a bit different in the 3rd house rather than 10th. It will have a bit more power, but it is still debililtated. If it's in the 3rd it will have less momentum than if it's in the 10th. On the other hand, if Saturn is in Capricorn, the same thing applies regarding momentum, but Saturn is in much better shape.
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Arihant



Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 66
Location: INDIA

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But Mithira , for the traditonal description of say, Saturn in Leo...Ancient Astrlogers must have observed/studied the effects of Saturn's transit in this particular constellations...over a appreciableperiod of time..before noting down in their Treatises....now , due to this 'Precession of Equinoxes, the Saturn ,when we say transitng in Leo...is in fact , far removed from that very constellations of 2000 years back...and therfore now it is obstructing different radiations to Earth ,coming from the constelltion which is now at our Mathematical distance of say 120 degrees away from the point of location Sun at Spring Equinox. In principle, effects of Saturn ,now transiting at , what we call Leo, should change!

Despite these anamolies in relative postion of Saturn , its indeed wonderful & amazing , we are still making , Correct Interpretaions --of Natal chart..& predicting accurately !
This made me feel , may be for Natal chart prediction ( not just each & everyplanetary effects), most of results are hardly because of Saturn in Leo or Virgo...but chiefly due to House -Position , Aspects , Transits & Progresions.

If in transits , if you are consistent with your system and if you take Saturn in present mathematical reference or its actual location in Constellations, (defined 2000 years ago)...Transit trigger points, angles shall correpond accordingly to the each system..
so your are Not off the tangent, very much!

Again ,in practise , i am too , is interpreting Planets in Signs, like you, Saturn in Virgo, as it is in these days!

Just I am new to this forum, & suddenly this confusion came in my Mind & i felt , there are experienced Astrologers...Lets see , how they feel about this issue. I not foolish to hate being corrected.

I hope , i shall learn others point of View!

So , thank you very much of replying..hope , you shall add further!
with best wishes,
Arihant
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Minderwiz



Joined: 10 Jul 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Wigan, Lancs

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are assuming that the effects of Saturn are determined by the background constellations, rather than, say its position relative to the equinoctial cycle.

The traditional views of essential dignity were established when Tropical and Sidereal zodiacs were more or less the same. If it were the position of say, Saturn, were determined by its position relative to the equinoxes, that effect would still be the same today and the current Tropical signs would correspond to the constellations of 2000 years ago in terms of their relative position to the equinoxes.

Now I'm not saying that it's the position relative to the equinoxes which determines the effects of Saturn (though it may be), rather that there are other possible explanations of Saturn's effects than its position relative to the constellations.

There is no agreed explanation of how and why Astrology works. I certainly don't have a complete explanation. What I do know is that it does work and that a traditional approach does seem to work better for me than the more modern and psychological approach.
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also keep in mind that there is a difference between the signs and the constellations. Both the siderial and tropical signs are idealized representations of the sky divided into neat 30 degree sections. The real contellations are actually pretty messy. Some are over 30 degrees and some less, and some overlap others.

Astrology is a divination system, and while a chart is not entirely false compared with the sky itself, it's not entirely representative either. A siderial chart may show a planet in Pisces and a tropical may show the same planet in Aries, but in reality that planet may not be in either sign. My example is made up off the top of my head, but you get the idea.

Sidereal is primarily used in Vedic, and tropical primarily in western. Neither show exactly what is in the sky. The only real difference between the two is where your starting point is. There are some astrologers who ahve tried creating a system based on a literal representation of the sky. This is called "constellational" astrology, and really amounts to redoing most of astrology as we know it.

The meaning of Saturn in Capricorn (for example) is exactly the same in both systems. The issue between sidereal and tropical isn't what a sign means, but where the planet is transiting.
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Arihant



Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 66
Location: INDIA

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GoodMorning & I wish you all a nice day!
Minderwiz, What else could be the possible reason(s) , for these masses of Gases & other inaminated , heavy objects , wandering silently & nonchalantly in their fixed orbits....other than mangnetising some elements in our body , some ions in atmosphere, in human beings perhaps start vibrate to the frequency of radiations , coming from outer world , depending on intensity/power of wavelenght reaching Earthlings & inherent/latent reponsive mechanism of Earthlings

(This is all elementary, My Dear Watson! Leery )

Of course, there is attraction & Gravitational pull between Earth & Saturn...and thus Saturn , due to his Massive body , proximity (Compared to astuondingly distant & farway Star constellations) to earth
shall affect Eartlings , more than Star constellations....( in line with my assumption) ...and irrespective , negligibly coloured by Star-constellayions , it might be transiting!

If there is other rational reasons, i am also dying to know how it would explain how Planets or Constellations affect Earthlings.

Thank you , Mithra , for letting me knoe they are other Astrologers , who
are also experimenting with deducing from a unique position of Planets in Cosmos , at any given moment , but apparently to us earthlings , its depend on our relative position of observation..but then i heard ...all we can see ..is three sides of a cube only!

Where is this Constellations Astrology!
how are they are describing Planets in sign?
Do they have anyweb site or books published..hoe do you heard of them & did you read any of their books!

I am feeling good, thanks!

regards to you all!

Arihant!
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arihant wrote:
Thank you , Mithra , for letting me knoe they are other Astrologers , who
are also experimenting with deducing from a unique position of Planets in Cosmos , at any given moment , but apparently to us earthlings , its depend on our relative position of observation..but then i heard ...all we can see ..is three sides of a cube only!

Where is this Constellations Astrology!
how are they are describing Planets in sign?
Do they have anyweb site or books published..hoe do you heard of them & did you read any of their books!

I am feeling good, thanks!

regards to you all!

Arihant!


I'm not unique - I'm just a traditionalist!

Typically tropical is used for the entire chart except when describing positions of fixed stars which are generally stated in sidereal. If you buy the modern printing of Lilly, the editor shows modern star positions based on where they were in 2002 or 2003 or something. They haven't moved much since then.
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Arihant



Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 66
Location: INDIA

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Mithira ...my question is also not unique , i hope!
Though , i was referring to , unique position of a planet in Cosmos , at any given instant....which sidereal or tropical Astrologers are measuring differently...(why there should be any difference , i am not going to change here much..nor i want to be drawn into debate of sideral v/s tropical or fixed stars effects)

Lets see, we have mathematically divided elliptical belt into 12 divisions and point of Sun Location on Spring Equinox , we are calling , zero degrees of Aries...so 120 degrees further ahead in this path is our Mathematical Leo.

I want to know when are describing Saturn in Leo , effects...are we following descriptions given 2000 years back?

I have no course in Astrology , just read from here & there . but generally unable to help feeling thrilled by reading Astrological Intrepretations , by popular Western Astrologers & Tropical Astrology books also.

Now , what is the possible way of enumerating effects of a Saturn Transit, in this example , in Leo...surely it has to do with the magnetising effects over earthlings, observed by some WISE men at this positon.

I am not sure , but may be it is possible , whether Saturn ,due to at certain distance from certain fixed
stars , at this position...shall effect earthlings , this way.

((but this distance would negligibly change with respect to fixed stars , if saturn goes to virgo from here...and from what point change shall be appreciable to take into account..nobody can tell..thats why there migh be over-lapping of Signs & it hardly matter whether Saturn is in Leo or virgo, two adjacent signs))

But , if it is because Saturn is now obstructing , radiations coming to earth from whatever the Constellations is there behind our mathematical position of Leo....& if this resultant effect shall aptly describe which is now popular amongst us, 'effect of Saturn in Leo'.....then due to this 'Precession of Equinoxes' , say in next 2000 years , in principle , description should change!

If i am annoying anyone , i am sorry !

May i request Respected Deb, Tom , Bevan...if they could enlighten us a little, please...!

Regards!
Arihant
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