61
robin wrote:Was the void of course moon a big factor at the time and what orb was used around 1776?
I have a big problem with that. Have any other countries come into being during a Void of Course Moon?

As an astrologer, would you recommend someone marry or start a business or make their initial public stock offering during a Void of Course Moon?
MarkC wrote:This is why I argued strongly earlier in the thread for the focus to shift the Federal USA chart with timed data.
I've been looking at the period 1786-1789 because that's were I believe the answer is based on historical data. That's when it was realized that the Articles were a failure and the process of developing and implementing a new constitution began and ended (for the most part).
MarkC wrote:Still, I agree with Nicholas Campion that nations do not have a single birth chart. The formation of the USA was a process not a single event. It could be said to have began with the forming of the First Continental Congress and ended with the Federal constitution coming into place.
I view the governing document of a country, its constitution, as a brain. If you removed someone's brain and grew a new one with stem cells or something, you'd have to cast a new natal chart. It might be the same body, but not the same person.

I don't know, we'll just have to keep working at it until we find the right birth time.

62
I find the Campion and Cornelius idea that all charts can be as effective on occasions very questionable. In my experience those who know what they are doing can spot if most charts are accurate or not. Like the sibley chart and how the more gifted astrologers say it's symbolism fits.
Hi Robin,

Firstly, please don't take my clumsy attempt to rephrase Nicholas Campion's argument as a guide. Like Geoffrey Cornelius, Nicholas Campion is a very sophiticated thinker. He is one of the world's leading authorities on mundane astrology so I would not agree his view is due to 'lack of talent'! Rather a scrupulous honesty about the reality of the craft. Its hard to do justice to all the subtlety of his reasoning without quoting him in very large chunks.

Nevertheless, it is the experience of a lot of astrologers that you can occasionally do a consultation and find the chart fits perfectly only to discover later it was incorrect data. Often the 'wrong chart' still seems more accurate afterwards. It seems to me the Gemini rising chart is a perfect example of this phenomena. However, if you reject the divinatory argument you need to find an explanation why this historically inaccurate chart still works so well.

The alternative view is that it is tapping into key points relevant to American history. That may be due to the focus on the mutable Gemini-Sagittarius ASC/Desc axis as suppoters of Sibly would state or its focus along the fixed sign Aquarius/Leo IC/MC axis as supporters of the Scorpio rising chart would claim. Incidentally, the Astrodatabank version of the Gemini rising chart shown in the link appears wrong. My apologies to Michael 'O'Reilly! Rather than take an either or view ie its has to be Sibly or the Scorpio rising chart maybe they are both reflecting something from another chart and time?

I am working on that basis and have been trying to find a chart that meets both criteria. I think I may have found such a chart. Fortunately, its timed so requires little or no rectification. Its not one I have ever heard American astrologers mention before. However, I am reluctant to state much more as I am subjecting the chart to a rigorous test through transits, progressions etc based on key historical events to see how it compares to other much better known charts.

If this is the case then i suppose we would need to find out more as to the astrological system in vogue in 1776. I recall the sibley having some well placed fixed stars. Was the void of course moon a big factor at the time and what orb was used around 1776? Does cornelius go into this i forget?
As I indicated above there are two basic approaches to void of course moon. The medieval approach was that if a planet did not perfect an aspect before leaving a sign it was VOC. There were exceptions like Ibn Ezra who looked at aspects across the sign boundary but it seems that the majority of early medieval astrologers like Bonatti did not consider aspects across the sign boundary. This was the view Celeste Teal was taking in arguing all the other 1776 charts were VOC. The Gemini rising Moon trines Mars before leaving Aquarius but none of the later charts for 1776 make an aspect in sign. Her argument ( based on zero evidence) is that Benjamin Franklin as an astrologer foresaw this and convinced the members of continental Congress to sign the Declaration between 2-3 am.

However, by the late middle ages and certainly by the time of William Lilly in the 17th century astrologers took a different line on VOC. They would not consider the Moon VOC if it was within moeity orb of another planet across the sign boundary. This was not a new concept and went back to Arab astrologers like Al Biruni. However, the use orbs out of sign does seem a later development.

Deb Houlding has written these excellent articles describing how moeity orbs for the planets work.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects.html

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspectorbs.html

Essentially you add up the combined orbs of two planets and then half this to find the 'moeity' as the French 16th century astrologer Claude Dariot describes it. So in this period aspect orbs are determined by the planets involved not the aspect type as modern astrologers would have it.

Sibly was writing before the discovery of Uranus, Neptune or Pluto so would have most likely have been following an approach very similar to Lilly , Gadbury, Ramesey and the other 17th century English astrologers. The same probably applies to Benjamin Franklin. That rather undermines Celeste Teal's argument as by the afternoon of the 4th of July the Moon was in moeity orb to Venus and Jupiter.

63
I view the governing document of a country, its constitution, as a brain. If you removed someone's brain and grew a new one with stem cells or something, you'd have to cast a new natal chart. It might be the same body, but not the same person.
That analogy is worthy of a horror B movie!

Seriously though, I think that approach is far too limited. That view will not work across the world unless you want to insult lots of nationalities.

Several healthy democracies do not have a written constitution contained in one single document like the USA. In particular the United Kingdom, New Zealand and Israel have no written constitution yet all seem to function as democratic states. Instead the constitution of these countries consists of a collection of statutes (Acts of Parliament), Treaties, Orders-in-Council, Letters patent, decisions of the Courts and unwritten constitutional conventions. There is no one supreme document ? so these constitutions are not codified or entrenched.

So are you suggesting the governments of Great Britain, New Zealand and Israel lack a brain?

The old Soviet Union had a terrific written constitution but it meant nothing in reality. Its ok to have a good brain but you need to use it!

However, I do go along with the argument that a major constitutional change in a country like the USA needs consideration. The fact the modern USA is modelled on the federal constitution and not the Artcles of Confederation is why I think we need to give more astrological focus on the later. However, advocates of a chart based on the earlier Confederal constution will claim this was the first USA government and that that later
developments dont change the crucial importance of that moment.

We need to look at all charts and all arguments rather than rushing to accept any one chart.

Charts for a nation can be based on many factors:

The de facto change of power ie Storming of the Winter Palace or a military coup. As I indicated above the British defeat at Yorktown meets this criteria.

An expression of national independence or desire for a new government ie the Irish Easter Uprising of 1916, Tibetan uprising of 1959, Boston Tea Party or the Declaration of Independence

The international De Jure recognition of a country as a sovereign separate state. For America this came in in 1783 when Britain formally accepted America was no longer a colony but an independent state.

A key early seed moment ie the 1066 chart for England which represents the crowning of one of the earliest kings of England. 4th of July for most Americans.

Inaugural charts-ie First US President or De Gaul as first President of the French 5th Republic.

Constitutions-signing, ratifying or effective date in place. In the US candidates include the Articles of Confederation and Federal Constitution.

Major Territorial changes affecting the legal status of the country -For example the Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland created in 1801.

Official proclamations ie the proclamation of the People's Republic of China or the unified Germany chart for 1871 used as the key moment by many astrologers. In the case of Australia most astrologers seem to think the proclamation of the 1901 federation is more powerful than the de jure time the constitution came into effect.

So I think we need to be flexible and assess each chart based on the unique factors of that country and the historical moment involved and avoid a blanket approach.

64
Thanks Mark

Good stuff,

I don't reject Cornelius/Campion's arguments just find them questionable.

I think many charts 'work' but some better than others. Gem rising doesn't work as well as the sag rising from what i can see. As you say the mutable angles complicate matters.

In my albeit limited experience the better the astrologer the more able to divine or assess it's accuracy. The trouble is the better astrologers don't put themselves forward for testing!

I found Cornelius's background info on the 'masonic' relevance to electing the chart very interesting and from what you say they wouldn't have seen 27' Aq as VOC, at least not necessarily.

What's the Libra chart you have seen?

robin
________
HYDROCODONE REHAB ADVICE
Last edited by robin on Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

65
Hi,

This is my first post on Skyscript. There are many valuable comments on this thread, as well as on two other threads discussing the USA chart. I would like to toss a little known bit of information into the mix. I say ?little known? because I have only heard it said by one astrologer (not to imply that I?ve heard it all :) ) in regard to a USA Scorpio ascendant 2:20 or 2:21 July 4th time.

Advocates of the Scorpio ascendant often use the one hundred dollar bill as evidence yet consistently fail to reference their source. Unreferenced historical information, repeated year after year, takes on the condition of popularized ?hype?. O?Reilly?s advocacy is an example of perpetuating a most engaging myth (false, ntl),
Government Certifies Scorpio Ascendant

The United States government has been issuing official certificates for many years showing that the U.S. horoscope actually has Scorpio Rising. The certificates are in the form of the one hundred dollar bill, with founding father Benjamin Franklin on the face side, and the historic scene of Independence Hall, the location where the Declaration was signed, on the reverse side.

While astrologers have long disagreed about the time the Declaration was signed, the clock on the Independence Hall bell tower shows very clearly a time of 2:21 PM. Is this just a coincidence? Or is this acceptable evidence that the historic moment is being commemorated on the one hundred dollar bill. http://politicalastrology.homestead.com/Main2.html
For all astrologers who do not have access to a US one hundred dollar bill, especially astrologers not in the USA, in fact, the Government does NOT ?certify Scorpio Ascendant.? If O?Reilly and others had paused to make a very simple reference check with the ?author? of the one hundred dollar bill they would hear a completely different time! Based on current historical data it could be suggested that the Government certifies a Sagittarius Ascendant, and only suggestive of that.

The Government's security printer, United States Treasury Bureau of Engraving and Printing, is the ?author? responsible for the design, engraving and printing of all United States paper currency (since 1862, heavily documented and undisputed 145 years of authorship), They qualify the time as ?approximately 4:10?. For astrologers, this is a Sagittarius Ascendant (if PM, they do not say).

In the words of the United States Treasury Bureau of Engraving and Printing,
Vignette on the Back of the $100 Note Since Series 1928, the $100 note has featured an engraving of Independence Hall in Philadelphia. The former State House of Pennsylvania, Independence Hall is often called the birthplace of our Nation. Within its walls the Declaration of Independence was signed and the Constitution of the United States was drafted.

There is no record that the man and woman standing in front of the hall close to the building are embracing. The hands of the clock on the hall are set at approximately 4:10. There are no records explaining why that particular time was chosen. (my emphasis in bold) http://www.moneyfactory.gov/document.cfm/18/94/2232
The Treasury Bureau of Engraving and Printing has checked the historical records.

Kind regards,
Darlene

66
Darlene3 wrote:Advocates of the Scorpio ascendant often use the one hundred dollar bill as evidence yet consistently fail to reference their source. Unreferenced historical information, repeated year after year, takes on the condition of popularized ?hype?. O?Reilly?s advocacy is an example of perpetuating a most engaging myth (false, ntl)
I see you noticed that too. Thanks for doing the research. I'm of the opinion that the Scorpio advocates have a general aversion to research and it's to the point of being disgusting. There's a web-site that heavily pushes the Scorpio rising chart, and they've stooped to such lows as claiming that Chiron represents the military, but only for the US, and that the 6th House represents the military instead of the 4th House. They also have changed Pluto from the destroyer/transformer to some kind of Johnny Appleseed that sows the seeds of dissent, but I guess they had to in order to explain how Pluto transiting the 9th House would transform corporations and international finance.

67
Hi Yossarian,

I completely agree with you, Marc and others here that understanding history is key. Charts and event ?hits? are a dime a dozen, there needs be more to it. I prefer the idea of a ?let freedom ring? Sagittarius Ascendant chart, however I am open to all the other possibilities.

The Scorpio Ascendant advocates do not need the one hundred dollar bill to support their claim. If their astrology is sound then their charts will stand securely in the ring with all the other contenders and national family members. For someone like myself who is still learning history there are not enough lifetimes to research the validity of every sentence I read (sometimes I?d like to). Therefore, I stick to reading the astrologers whom I trust to be credible and diligent in their research. Learning history with astrology is actually fun that way.

Kind regards,
Darlene

68
Hello Darlene,

Thanks very much for that. Maybe we should establish a motto 'one piece of solid research is worth a thousand rectifications'.
The Scorpio Ascendant advocates do not need the one hundred dollar bill to support their claim. If their astrology is sound then their charts will stand securely in the ring with all the other contenders and national family members.
Exactly. These kind of arguments are are peripheral. However, a lot of astrologers do love passing around popular myths rather than finding out if they are true. An example is the much quoted discussion between Sir Isaac Newton and Sir Edmund Halley on astrology. Astrologers have used this for decades but there is no evidence such an exchange ever happened. In fact recent research on Newton's belief's make it exceedingly unlikely.

Incidentally, what astrologers do you think are reliable? The most scrupulous on researching out charts I have found to date is Nicholas Campion. He will not use a chart without a reliablre written source.
Last edited by Mark on Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

69
I'm of the opinion that the Scorpio advocates have a general aversion to research and it's to the point of being disgusting
Hi Yossarian,

Well if its all as sloppy as you suggest it is cause for concern.
I certainly find the heavy use Michael O'Reilly makes of asteroids to delineate the Scorpio rising chart less than convincing. Still in fairness I don't think we should lump all advocates of the Scorpio rising chart together. I believe Marc Penfield was one the earliest advocates of this chart and he did so after going through quite a few primary historical sources.

I personally, think there is a very heavy Scorpio aspect to the US federal government. Several charts around US government support this. The first Continental Congress, the prototype of American government is Scorpio rising close to the Penfield degrees. David Solte research on the the passing of the Articles of Confederation by Congress also have a strong Scorpio quality. Finally, the USA federal government chart from 1789 is again Scorpio rising.

Thats one of things that frustrated me about Michael O'Reilly's book. It never seems to occur to him that the scorpio dimension could be explained by other charts/times other than July 4th. However, his monomania on July 4th hardly makes him unique amongst American astrologers.

The Sagittarius rising chart does seem to tap into the highest ideals of American society with its focus on freedom, tolerance, openess, human rights and a deep seated optimism and extrovertism.

However, lets play devil's advocate here..... Scorpio rising advocates could say the above could be explained by the Sun-Jupiter conjunction on the July 4th chart. The dark side needs explanation too doesn't it?

Slavery and its aftermath have dominated and distinguished American society to this day. Issues of power-ownership resonate across the Scorpio-Taurus axis. The incredible expansion of US federal terrirory has been won through any methods available ie money, war and in the case of many native Americans...genocide. Then as the native Americans were largely displaced the country entered upon one of the most bitter and destructive civil wars in history. In the second half of the 20th century we see emergence of America as one of only two global superpowers. Eventually, after a 'cold war' which threatened the destruction of all life on earth the USA becomes the sole superpower after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. The USA today is the world's leader in the manufacturing and export of arms.

Sociologists comparing liberal democracy in the USA and Western Europe frequently comment that the USA is different from Europe due its intense religiousity, its continued use of capital punishment (almost alone in the developed west) and the high societal access to guns.

Advocates of the Sibly chart as the sole 'USA chart' need to find an explanation for these historical developments and cultural characteristics.
This is not to suggest such indicators are not there. However, I think part of the reason for the increasing interest in the Scorpio rising chart is that the Sibly chart is often presented in such an overwhelmingly positive way. Little time is spent exploring the darker dimension of American history or society.

70
Hi Robin
What's the Libra chart you have seen?
Here is an example of someone using a Libra rising chart.

http://www.horoscoper.net/horoscopes/usa-1.htm

There is another site advocating Libra rising but I can't get the link to work. They are going for a noon time on the same basis as an unverified natal chart. Here is the site: http://www.astrotrends.net/index.html

You will need to track down the article from there. However, I have included most the text on it it below:


Detailed Analysis

Here is the horoscope of the USA based on the time when the Declaration of Independence was signed by the Founding Fathers on July 4th, 1776. There does not seem to be much consensus amongst astrologers when it was signed and so we have many different opinions on the time of birth of this great country! Some have taken 2.17 am and given her Gemini Ascendant which does not seem appropriate as the Congress session opened at 9 am!

Instead of explaining why the others are wrong, I will focus on why I have chosen Libra as the Rising Sign of USA. Dane Rudhyar and Liz Greene took Sagittarius rising but US as a country is not really that philosophical. America only wants to preach to others (planets in 9th house) without applying the Divine rules to itself!

The clock on the Independence Hall tower on a $ 100 bill shows 2:21p.m (Scorpio rising), but I have rectified it to give Libra rising (12:30 p.m).

Sun at 13' of Cancer seems to make number 13 very significant for USA and the great seal: 13 original colonies, 13 stars above the Eagle, 13 stripes on the Eagle?s shield, 13 olive branches in the Eagle?s right claw, 13 arrows in the left claw, 13 steps the Pyramid, and 13 letters in the motto E Pluribus Unum!

Here is the analysis for Libra Ascendant and also which signs are more fortunate in the U.S.A.!

Anyone who has Libra rising (or Libra-Scorpio planets) represents the national identity of America, JFK, Liz Taylor, Bill Clinton and Bill Gates of Microsoft (Scorpio with Mercury in Libra) are a few examples. Elizabeth Taylor represents an enduring feminine beauty in America?s history (although for a short period of time, she was starting to look more and more like a desperate Scorpio!). JFK symbolized the best of USA and gave it an identity of fairness and-justice. 90% of computers have Windows OS from Bill Gates.

All of you with Cancer MC have Libra rising. Those of you with Leo MC can also relate to most of the article. Liz Taylor and Charles Manson (Scorpio) represent the two sides of USA.

Walk softly (Libra) and carry a big stick (Scorpio) advice by Theodore Roosevelt, who was a Scorpio, describes the First house cusps of Libra-Scorpio perfectly!

Many politicians who originally enter politics because their sense of fairness has been violated, have Libra rising. Money usually keeps them there for too long but I doubt if it is their original motivation! However, Hitler was also born with Libra rising! So how did America?s chart affect his? Hitler felt that outsiders were responsible for its inflation in 1929 when the price of a dozen eggs was 100 million marks! Underneath that mild looking Libra rising is Scorpio and resentment kept building up till it finally exploded in WWII. All the planets in the US chart fall in exactly the same houses in Hitler?s chart because they both have the same Ascendant. Mars in the U.S. chart falls in the 9th house of Hitler?s chart, a clear indication of conflicts from a foreign country and his plans destroyed by the dropping of the Atom Bomb on Japan. Even the letter ?A? in Atom may have significance here because it is a ?Mars? letter! USA?s Pluto in Hitler?s 4th house also points to destruction of his homeland through bombs.

Secret Love and Secret Enemies! Bill Clinton may have done many immoral activities, but it is the Nation?s destiny to have secret love with the enemies (Libra being half of its 12th house)! Not only does this point to JFK and Clinton?s affairs (both Libra rising!) satisfying the U.S. Chart?s need for secret love,but also to its shift in the relationship with past dictators like Noreiga and Saddam. The U.S. courted them at first and even helped them and then considered them secret enemies. America thrives on stories about secret love which accounts for Enquirers popularity and the booming tabloid business.

The U.S. has an outward personality of a beautiful, peace loving woman who does not like any hassles and is very serene to look at. However, underneath that sophisticated look is the vindictive Scorpio side which becomes very self-destructive when provoked. The U.S. is ever ready to go to War. (Mars in the 9th house) but gets bogged down because of ill planned or deceptive ideology (Mars square by Neptune in the 12th). Mars-Neptune is t nightmare configuration which will always there and points to immoral and hypocritical values undermining U.S. interests abroad. Neptune so close to the 11th house is excellent for naturopathy and alternative herbal medicine. However, its square from Mars again shows the deception and fraud i this area. There are many charlatans and fraudulent faith healers. It also points to fraudulent and deceptive promises under th guise of humanitarian aid.

Scorpio in the 2nd house indicates money through oil, war and defence contracts. It all points to earnings through bloodshed and wars. Medicine to save others is the only way to offset this theme.

A Matriachal Society: Libra rising puts Cancer on the 1Oth (MC) and Capricorn on the 4th. This shows that America is probably headed for a matriachal society and also why a lot of US Presidents from a family where there was a role reversal and the mother was more of a domineering influence (Bill Clinton). Americans want to save the world but ignore their own home and people. Capri- corn on the 4th points to a barren home, working mothers, business at home, children?s emotional needs completely ignored and most family issues treated like business. Pluto in the 4th opp. Mercury is the hallmark of the dictator. It also points to mothers (4th house) of Presidents ruling with an iron hand and leading them to make changes which violate Divine Laws. Saturn in Libra, a very good placement for executive ability, but in the 12th house and being ruler of the 4th house accurately reflects so many institu- tions and jails instead of homes with hot soup and squeal of delight of children.

Where the U.S. chart shines is in the 9th house and 10th house of fame. Cancer and Leo on the 10th house indicates America?s dual role. The nurturini!. mothering saviour and the glamourous Hollywood entertainment and showbiz image. Cancer also points to the big food and farming industry. Neptune in Leo was in America?s 10th house when MGM success- fully chose it as its emblem. Anything with a Royal. British. Monarch. Sun, Solar, Gold or Golden name to it will be successful in the U. S.!

Gemini and Cancer on the 9th house indicate the diversity of immigrants and America being
home to so many foreigners. Venus conj. Jupiter shows the opulence and wealth. Mars sq. Neptune in the 9th shows the misguided foreign policy. Mars in the 9th sq. to Neptune also shows the armada of battleships abroad feeding off of unsuspecting taxpayers and dictators from foreign countries. Uranus in the 8th is indicative of money through electronics, space programs, digital equipment, super computers and the media. Moon in Aquarius (like Princess Diana) is the cool and aloof side of America best portrayed by the supermodels with an attitude! No wonder Princess Diana, who was a Cancer with Moon in Aquarius liked the U.S. and instantly became popular here.The three astronauts who first landed on the Moon were all Cancers (Jupiter in Cancer in the 9th) !

Cancer and Leo on the 10th house: Cancer-Leo celebrities are Tom Cruise, Sylvester Stallone, Madonna,Mick Jagger, DeNiro etc.

Which SIgns are compatible for USA: If you have Scorpio and Sagittarius planets,you may cost the U.S. a lot of money! and Libras will be the most in ill repute! Both the signs of Virgos and Libra are part of USA?s 12th house and will be seen as secret enemies unless they are involved with health oriented professions and nursing in the U.S. but Libras will always have to be careful of love affairs spoiling their career and self image.

However, Libras in the beauty business will do exceptionally well. In fact, the U.S. Libra rising indicates an obsession with self-beautification. If you are beautiful and serene looking, you are already on your way to represent the U.S. (Brook Shields and Marilyn Monroe). MM had Leo rising and shot to fame (or rather the US became famous because of her!) when Neptune was transiting the US 10th house of fame and publicity, and scandals! She best represented the ?Neptune in Leo? period...blond and glamorous.

Lincoln was shot when Uranus conj. the US Mars (freak accidents with guns and explosives), and Mars (guns) was transiting USA?s 9-10th house (Law- President) . Neptune opp Saturn and demoralized the nation (insecurities). When JFk was shot, the nations chart again accurately reflected the tragic event. Moon was in the 3rd house (travelling by car) and Uranus transiting USA?s 8th house (life/death) squared the Moon and JFk?s news shook the whole country. Pluto in Leo in the 10th also indicated the death of a charismatic President. Uranus conj. Mars in JFk?s 8th house, exactly the same aspect as Princess Diana and similar to Versace. All three were born with an adverse Mars Uranus aspect...freak accidents and danger from guns!

Finally, there are two symbols of the U.S., the Statue of Liberty (Libra) and the bald Eagle (Scorpio)- perfect symbols for its First House!
[Later update:
The first hyperlink I gave was to an article by an astrologer called Stefan Stenudd.

The second article involving the large quote is by an astrologer called Hassan Jaffer, who is based in in New York, Ontario, Canada. The article has no proper heading other than ''The United States of America''.

I got his article by googling and can't seem to locate it through the main website. Its maybe a old page that is no longer being used. ]


Mark

72
Just wanted to pipe in with some data, I did a bit of research on Declaration of independence, it was commisioned to be drawn up on 28 june 1776,

voted on in congress on July 4th

The delegates and President of the second Continental congress signed on the 1st of August 1776. I have not been able to establish a TIME that it was voted on, which would I think be the Best indication of rising. I think.

So contrary to many myths about the document it was not signed on the date it was voted on, Also once it was voted on Thomas Jefferson took it to make copies, on each of the copies he wrote it as it was originally penned, then crossed out the sections removed and penned in changes, just as on the original document. which I also found to be interesting, but for those who are big on the National Treasure movies that tells you one of the made up movie details. :) the congressional secretary did not make the copies. :) difference between fictional history and what really happened are always so much fun. And even the conservative version I've attached bellow has its detractors, but I believe it is one of the less fanciful versions of the data.

here is one place to view some of the history of the document

http://bensguide.gpo.gov/6-8/documents/ ... gners.html

Granny