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Skyscript Astrology Forum

The Moon in the Via Combusta - how strict should one be?
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Paul
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Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:

Hello Fleur, can you explain, where you have read that the Moon in via combusta makes the chart ureadable, please?


I'm not Fleur, but some modern authors attest that it is a 'stricture before judgement' which suggests that the chart cannot be read if the moon is in the via combusta. I can find some examples if you want.
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johannes susato



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Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
I'm not Fleur, [...]


I say? I would never ever have hit on that! Shocked

To be earnest again and to be honest, it would be a pleasure if you could provide those quotations you have in mind, especially the justifications of these opinions, if there were any.

Thank you in advance, Paul.
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Mjacob



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Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
Mjacob wrote:
Ib'n Ezra alone as far as I am aware states that a planet in the last degree of a sign is already in the next sign too. She is still in the combust way but look at the aspects from the first degree here. The result could be interesting


Hello Mjacob, if you refer to chapter 8, 35) then Ibn Ezra does not claim "the planet at the end of a sign" to be IN the next sign, but, to be precise, only that "it loses its strength and all of its power is in the sign it will enter [next]."


I reread it in its entirety and my paraphrase is accurate. You are free to disagree with him if you like just as you free to misunderstand a single sentence. if it helps you the border between signs is a line with no breadth and the moon is a disc with a diameter ie breadth. No me credo circumspice
MJ
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johannes susato



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Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the meantime we could consider the opinion of Lilly and a quotation of Frawley. The latter seems to be very interesting with regard to the examination question above.

William Lilly in his CA seems to mention via combusta four times.

First, at page 122, where he defines it and in my view refers only to the opinion of some others, him insinuating not to share this opinion, as Sue Ward has carved out rightly.

Second, at p. 415, where he does not even mention the fact of the Moon's being in via combusta.

Third, the same at p. 495. (wrong page, correction soon!)

Fourth, at p. 440, where Lilly, even though he states, that the Moon is entering via combusta (the Moon being at 13.37 Libra), gives his judgement without mentioning any problems because of this fact.

John Frawley, The Horary Textbook, p. 66: "Being here does not make the Moon any weaker, but does distress it." And: "[...] the Moon's passage through the via combusta shows a period of unpleasant emotional turbulence."
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johannes susato



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Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mjacob wrote:
johannes susato wrote:
Mjacob wrote:
Ib'n Ezra alone as far as I am aware states that a planet in the last degree of a sign is already in the next sign too. She is still in the combust way but look at the aspects from the first degree here. The result could be interesting


Hello Mjacob, if you refer to chapter 8, 35) then Ibn Ezra does not claim "the planet at the end of a sign" to be IN the next sign, but, to be precise, only that "it loses its strength and all of its power is in the sign it will enter [next]."


I reread it in its entirety and my paraphrase is accurate. You are free to disagree with him if you like just as you free to misunderstand a single sentence. if it helps you the border between signs is a line with no breadth and the moon is a disc with a diameter ie breadth. No me credo circumspice
MJ


Your are simply wrong claiming I would disagree with Ibn Ezra (because I did not say anything like that), or I would misunderstand a single sentence.

But I think Ibn Ezra would deserve to be quoted correctly, what I have done verbatim, not only paraphrasing his text. I had hoped you would have quoted him now or had said at least, where you find this statement.

So I quote the whole paragraph now so that you can see that he does not say what you still claim.

Please understand that in my opinion the hint you gave as to this statement of Ibn Ezra is very interesting, but I wanted to clarify the little but important difference between his text and your paraphrase.

Ibn Ezra, The Beginning of Wisdom, Translated by Meira B. Epstein, chapter 8, nr. 35, p. 131:

"When a planet is at the end of a sign, it looses its strength and all of
its power is in the sign it will enter [next]. If the planet is at the 29th
degree of the sign, its influence is still in the sign it is in, because
within 3 degrees the planet has influence in the degree it is in, one
degree before and one degree after."
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Mjacob



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Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Johannes,
The chart Fleur shows has Luna in the 30th degree and I took it that she occupies three degrees so one of them is the first of the next sign. Maybe I am just stating my own opinion here but the moon is never stationary nor retrograde as we know so I say she is applying already to the aspects from the next sign
Only example charts with known results can be the final arbiter here if I may express another opinion
Regards to you
MJ

ps in the forward Robert Hand mentions this aphorism as rare example where out of sign aspects are allowed. #35 mentions the 29th degree and I am talking about the 30th. Do the math then see #36 for the context please
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Geoffrey



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Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:


William Lilly in his CA seems to mention via combusta four times.


This is a fine example of Lilly laying out the rules in the front part of the book, then being guided by the rules rather than adhering strictly to them as he gives examples.

In general, 17th century English astrologers seem to regard Via Combusta
as a debility, or impediment, but not as a reason not to judge the chart at all.

Amongst modern astrologers, Barbara Watters stated in her book that after many years of ignoring the cautions against judgement, she decided that after all, there was something to them and turned them into 'strictures' against judgement, of which Moon being Via Combusta was one.

Geoffrey Cornelius has concluded that the only reason horary astrology (in particular) works is that it is divinely inspired. That it, when we interpret an astrological chart we are guided to broader awareness of the world about us by a "greater intelligence" - which may be a Daemon, or Guardian Angel, as your fancy takes you. Cornelius goes on to comment that - not unreasonably - there may be times when it is not be to our advantage to have the knowledge we seek. And so the natural role of Cautions against Judgement is to mark out the boundary of what we should know, and what we should not.

In this particular case, the chart which sparked off the question was set over six years ago now and we might expect that some development of the situation had happened since then. Too, the relationship of the question to the querent is not clear. Why should the querent be concerned about a possible development in Uzes, France? What role is the Moon actually playing in the actual or underlaying question?
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Mjacob



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Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See Marsha'allah's On Reception
A question concerning an ill person has a VOC moon at the 27th degree of Aries aspecting Mercury in the 2nd degree of Aquarius on the basis that it moves quickly into the next sign


Oddly though Robert Hand puts the moon at 28 degrees 37' whilst Dykes has 26 37 and Hand edited the ARHAT Ezra

MJ

ps it occurs to me that we are drifting off-topic. It is VC not VOC that is the subject
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I teach that the Via Combust or the Fiery Way is like the 'Bumpy Road' or Bumpy Way. It is like the turbulence that an Aircraft may hit as it speeds across the Sky, or the waves that a boat or water-scooter may hit at it jets across the water. It gives a choppy Journey.

Further, that the degrees of Spica offer protection, that the Via Combust begins in the degee of the Sun's fall at 19 Libra, although the 15 or 16th degree of Libra has a Uranian influence, as may well also 15 Scorpio. The Via Combust may be divided into two; those 15 degrees that lead up unto the degree of the fall of the Moon, and those that lie from 4 Scorpio and up to 19 Scorpio, which I term the 'Gift Box'. This is because these degrees often seem to involve some important discovery, as a planet or the Moon is placed in this sector of the Sky upon the discovery of the Outer Planets.

I conceive that the 19th degree of Scorpio, being the Cursed Degree, may be a cuspal thing - as a planet moves out of the Via Combust and drops out of the Gift Box. This is just my opinion and approach to the problem and I don't mind other people having a different opinion. There is room for people to gather and share their thoughts with the working of these degree in various charts.
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November4



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Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had charts with Moon entering Via Combusta and I agree with Frawley it does indicate emotional turmoil and in my experience if we take it as one of the significators of the querent I would say their emotions and feelings will be unpredictable regarding the matter.

But also I had a chart done a year ago with Moon entering via Combusta and there was a positive outcome (it was a friendship question). Maybe because my charts the Moon was in Libra not Scorpio.
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Paul
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Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
Paul wrote:
I'm not Fleur, [...]


I say? I would never ever have hit on that! Shocked

To be earnest again and to be honest, it would be a pleasure if you could provide those quotations you have in mind, especially the justifications of these opinions, if there were any.

Thank you in advance, Paul.


Ack, sorry Johannes, I actually started digging out some references but then got interrupted and forgot to come back to it.

Rather than list loads, I'll just quote from one or two which convey the point that several modern astrologers seem to have:

On the chapter entitled "Primary Considerations", from "Horary Astrology, the Art of Astrological Divination", by Derek Appleby:
Quote:
A chart may be judged when it is 'radical' or 'fit to be judged'. A non-radical chart not normally be judged.
...
The Via Combusta
The degree area extending from 15 Libra to 15 Scorpio is known as the via combusta. Tradition states that if the Ascendant or Moon falls between these two points, it is not safe to give judgement, and some authorities hold that any significator falling within this degree area is ineffective. The only exception is the degree of the benefic fixed star Spica, at 23 Libra; this positions is considered most fortunate. Pesonally I have not found this rule reliable, so I tend to ignore it.



On the chapter entitled "When not to pass judgement" from Handbook of Horary Astrology by Karen Hamaker-Zondag, pgs 15-18

Quote:
According to tradition, there are some charts that are risky to interpret because they contain indications that they can give no answer to the question, or that the querent or the astrologer will make mistakes.

Quote:

...
5. When the Moon or planet representing the querent or the quesited is in the via combusta. This is a very old rule, and is no longer observed by all horary astrologers.
...
Looking at the matter objectively there is not a single reason for clinging to the Via Combusta, and certainly not for deciding that a chart is incapable of being safely judged because of it. However, it must be mentioned that, guided by personal experience, the renowned horary specialist Barbara Watters did not completely abandon the Via Combusta rule

Quote:
As we see, there is no complete unanimity on the subject of when a horary chart may and may not be interpreted.
...
The important thing with all these rules is to proceed with caution!


As you can see from his reference, KHZ acknowledges that there are many modern astrologers who suggest a chart cannot be read under given conditions, though she herself advises that we proceed with caution with such charts. Similarly Derek Appleby lists it, but then suggests he doesn't actually observe the rule.
However individuals like Barbara Watters and others have perpetuated the notion that the old considerations before judgement were prohibitions on judgement or strictures against judgement.

Not everyone agrees of course. Ivy Goldstein Jacobson, for example, lists the Via Combusta as an effect upon the Moon but does not mention that charts should not be read. It seems that astrologers, either mostly inspired by Barbara Watters (etc.) do feel that there exists situations in which a significator, the moon particularly, in the via combusta prevents a chart from being read.

The common consensus seems to be the assumption that these rules are very old and from the tradition, so my assumption is that the considerations have been confused for strictures. Having said that, Bonatti does say we should not judge a chart unless there is hour agreement etc. so I think there is at least some context for the idea.
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Paul
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Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mjacob wrote:

I reread it in its entirety and my paraphrase is accurate. You are free to disagree with him if you like just as you free to misunderstand a single sentence. if it helps you the border between signs is a line with no breadth and the moon is a disc with a diameter ie breadth. No me credo circumspice
MJ


MJ

I think the point that johannes is making is that Ibn Ezra still attests that the planet at the last degree of a sign is in the sign in which it is, and not in the next sign. Just that its influence in the sign remains, but its strength is lost and its power is in the next sign. But this is different from suggesting he means that the planet is in the next sign too, even if it's only a subtle difference. He never states or suggests it's in two signs at the same time. I always understood this to be that he means that the planet loses or begins to lose its dignity in the sign in which it is, but is still influenced by that sign, but is pushing its power forward into the next sign.

I have the Moon at 29 degrees Aquarius and Mars at 29 Gemini and I have always felt that they are as they are, and they are not in Pisces or Cancer respectively - for whatever that is worth.
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