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6th – not 10th – for work
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1394

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Astrojin

So, is my understanding that you are using whole sign houses for horaries ?
Do you use what work for base ? Sahl ? Mashaláh ?
Are you getting better results than with REgiomontanus, or you simply never used any division system ?
Thanks,
Yuzuru
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Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TS,

It’s nice to hear from you again after a long absence. I had recently been wondering about you.

Quote:
Quote:
So why do astrologers skip this the house of labor and send all employment questions directly to the 10th?

I'm not sure they do. However, when considering a natal chart astrologers are often more interested in identifying the person's calling/vocation - their potential - and steering them in that direction rather than dwelling on the daily routine.

I do believe there is a difference between 6th house jobs and 10th house vocations or callings. With natal work it would be natural to look at the 10th for vocation and calling. In my previous posts I mentioned natal astrology, but my main focus – what I’ve had in mind in this thread, whether I mentioned it or not – has been horary and electional work. There’s no way I could see using the 10th house to answer a question such as ‘Will there be a lot of lay-offs at work?’ That is pure 6th house workplace stuff – there’s nothing 10th house about it. The procedure of always using the 10th for work matters just seems lazy to me and is an avoidance of looking closely at what is actually being asked.


Quote:
In addition, Mars rejoicing in this house means it's not a house devoid of being able to take the initiative, along with the hours of labour.

The matter of Mars’ joy is interesting; I hadn’t considered it. Mars can take the initiative in the 6th, and, utilizing the trine to the 10th or reception involving Mars and 10th house planets and ruler, can act toward achievements in the social sphere. In that sense Mars moves out of the 6th and becomes involved in a larger realm. A weak or dysfunctional Mars in the 6th can keep the Mars energy and activity in the 6th and focused on ‘good enough for me’. Maybe the excessive dryness of Mars could keep the person cut off from true social engagement and participation, and locked in the strictly personal interests of work-place gains – including such unsavory activities as stealing company property, sexual conquests, and using company time and computer resources for posting at an online forum Laughing. Just some thoughts there.


Gem wrote:
Quote:
You said my thoughts sounded like modern astrology( I haven't even read a single line written by S Forrest by the way). Actually using the 6th house for work is the modern one, which is not based traditionally. The 6th is for slaves, labourers, AC's employees; and all professions and trades are represented by the 10th, however menial.

What I meant was that your thoughts sounded like what one often hears in modern psychological astrology. I was hearing the modern ideas of ‘we all contribute, we all participate in and (implied) give to our society just by our existence’. You know – the ‘we are all special’ sort of thing. To that way of thinking we all are automatically entitled to full 10th house benefits. That instantly elevates us from lower case teacher to upper case Teacher just because we were hired by the Smithville school district. I’m saying that we applied to the school district to be a 6th house teacher and later may become a 10th house Teacher through our dedication and efforts.

I think it is appropriate to approach this differently in natal work. In natal astrology I would look to the 10th for work indications, but this is work as in vocation and calling. In doing so it’s obvious that we aren’t looking for indications of the Smithville schools in the natal chart. Natal charts are often concerned with more general themes, not always or even usually the particular and specific. So the 10th serves for Teacher or teacher in the natal chart. Horary and electional charts more naturally narrow the focus to the particular and specific.

As Astrojin wrote, the world of work is very different now. People probably fall in love, get married, have children, have affairs and die in pretty much the same ways they always have, but since the Industrial Revolution the creation of workplaces for the masses and monstrous corporations with thousands of cubicles doesn’t fit the old model of farms and cottage industries. But it’s too easy to focus on the negative. We now have a vast array of ways to avoid those cubicles through entrepreneurship and creative endeavors. This is one case where it’s correct and necessary to say that things are different now regarding traditional astrology. The funny thing is that the foundation was already there with the 6th as service to and dominance by others, and the 10th as a way of rising above and out of it.


Astrojin,
Thanks for the reply. I’ll be taking a look at the 2-6-10 triplicity rulers in my whole sign chart.

Quote:
In horary charts, I simply resort to the 10th house for profession and esp. when a person asks about a new job or his career development. I may use the 6th if it is more appropriate (e.g. if the 6th really describe the nature of his current work/labor). Having said this, MOST of the time when a person asks about his current job, I would look into the tenth simply because this is the house of employment and of employers!

The last sentence has me confused. I’m curious to know which house you would use for the example horary question I posed earlier “Will there be a lot of lay-offs at work?”

Would anyone else care to give their house preference for that question? To me it’s not only a work question [There may be a lot of upheaval with shifting duties and responsibilities.], but it’s also more specifically a workplace question. I just can’t see putting the workplace in the most elevated house in the chart – the house of honors and kings ..... You know.
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I need to soften a bit the distinction I made between natal and horary charts. The horary chart can sometimes be used somewhat like a natal chart when the birth time isn’t known. Here’s Lilly on page 450 of CA on ‘Of the Profession, Magistery or Trade any one is capable of.’:

Country people many times have not the time of their children’s Nativities, yet being desirous to know what profession such or such a Son is fittest for, they may repair to the Astrologian for satisfaction herein: Upon the time of their demanding the Question, erect your Figure, and therein consider the ascendant and his Lord, the Lord of the 10th and 10th house, ....


So here is the 10th as vocation and calling in horary. This is ‘Teacher’ as opposed to ‘teacher in Smithville’. Once it’s decided that the kid will thrive as a superb brick-maker, (I say) any questions the grown boy may have upon repairing to the astrologian concerning his workplace and the schemes of his fellow brick-makers would be answered by the 6th house.

But what especially interests me in the Lilly quote is ripe for a new topic thread: The parent is asking the question, but the child is apparently given the ASC. as significator. Judging by the horary threads I’ve read here and elsewhere most students and even practitioners would use the ASC for the parent, the 5th house for the child, and the 2nd house for the child’s 10th.


Now, for those of you who have repeatedly answered the question ‘Will I get the job?’ with a high rate of success using the 10th house: How about considering the thought that you were actually answering a different question?

In attempting to land a certain employment position we are in reality trying to please and convince the employer(s) that we are the best choice. At the same time we are hoping to defeat the other applicants in the contest for the position. Our endeavor is to acquire the position; naturally, we want to know if we will be successful in our endeavor. You see, it’s not a question of just being given something. It’s a matter of being successful in your intentions, attempts and actions. The 10th house is the house of success. Since oracles aren’t dumb, they’re really quite clever, the horary chart knows that your question ‘Will I get the job?’ is more accurately ‘Will I be successful in my attempt to get the job?’ Does this mean that we can often skip other houses in other questions and use the 10th for our answer? Probably. There is the tradition of the 10th house indicating success in the matter. The simplicity is delightful.
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kerenhappuch



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 396
Location: UK

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kirk,

I can see more clearly now that you are actually proposing a rather more subtle distinction than I had thought. This is interesting and I certainly agree with 6th as daily grind, routine, and working environment, depending on the context (an interesting distinction you make between "the workers" vs an entrepeneur or actively ambitious person).

Perhaps it is modern-day wishful thinking to say we all use our 10th house - indeed many people have very low or non-existent aspirations - possibly due to apathy and/or lacking an understanding of their true strengths - or "vocation", something which seems to have been forgotten in the current educational climate. In fact out of 5 close friends, only one has gone on to use her degree to gain relevant employment at the level of which she is capable. I think the 10th is about what you want to do/become - it is about aspirations. Perhaps the point here is that not everyone is in touch with those aspirations.

In context then - how would you differentiate in practise? The most common question is "Will I get the job?" This can still be judged from the 10th, as Kirk points out.

I think "What type of job would suit me" should still be judged from the 10th, as it is about the best possible outcome, "vocation" as I would understand it, not the work someone might settle for (6th).

What other work-related questions does anyone have on file which could be brought into the discussion as a practical exploration? I only have "Will I get the job" type questions...

Keren
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 490

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Yuzuru,
In natal astrology I use whole sign house system exclusively except in determining power of a planet.

When a planet is in a cadent house by whole sign house but not in Alchabitius (my favorite dynamic house system) - I do not take the planet as being totally cadent. A planet is cadent if it is cadent in both whole sign house and Alchabitius. This is especially important when delineating length of life via hyleg and alchocoden.

For example, if I see Venus is in the 9th by whole sign house and in the 10th by Alchabitius (or if you prefer Placidus/Regiomontanus), the power of Venus is not totally "cadent" or weak as it is goaded towards activity (using the term Robert Schmidt used in his leacture). THIS IS ONLY USED IN DETERMINING POWER. When delineating Venus, I would say that Venus is in the 9th house (as it is in the 9th by whole sign house) and hence, Venus is locally determined to the 9th i.e. the presence of Venus in the 9th will modify the meaning of the ninth house. The presence of Venus in the 10th (by Alchabitius or what whatever dynamical house system) is NOT going to affect the 10th house whatsoever...

In horary astrology however, I haven't made my stand yet. Horary astrology was practised by the medieval astrologers using dynamic house system (Alchabitius - Bonatti, Regiomontanus - Lilly) but I am moving towards whole sign house system for the topical analysis of the house but I still use Alchabitius for determining power and effectiveness.


Hi Kirk,
Quote:
In context then - how would you differentiate in practise? The most common question is "Will I get the job?" This can still be judged from the 10th, as Kirk points out.


I am sorry fior being confusing. When reread my post - I was confused myself!.

OK.

"Will I get the job" - If it is just a job (the client would have to confirm this), 6th house. If it is a career move then I include the 10th house.
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###



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Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astrojin,

Thank you. Your approach makes good sense.


Keren,

So I did ok? Confused
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Yossarian
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kerenhappuch wrote:
In context then - how would you differentiate in practise? The most common question is "Will I get the job?" This can still be judged from the 10th, as Kirk points out.


I think so. The 6th shows your vocation and events in the work place, but the 10th shows how you can apply your vocational knowledge.

You might be a carpenter, but you could be in cabinetry, or making furniture, or building houses, or working as a set designer for a movie studio.

If you have a degree in chemistry, working for a pharmaceutical company is not the same as working as a crime scene technician for a law enforcement agency.

In both cases its the same skill, it's just applied differently.
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OsirisRisen



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen nothing in the older books to suggest that the 6th is our work on any level.

Chapter 22 of Abu'Ali Al-Khayyat: The Judgments of Nativities is title, The Native's slaves and subordinates, and the significations of the sixth house.

Chapt 30: The Native's dignity and work, and the things signified by the 10th house.
Chapt 31: The Native's place in the kingdom(AC and MC).
Chapt 31: The Native's prosperity and power(AC and MC).
Chapt 33: The Native's profession(AC and MC).

All the references to status and work/trade/profession all refer to the ascendent and the midheaven, and the position of the moon. Nothing about the sixth, except for slaves, servents, illness, and animals.

In book 2 of CA, William Lilly lists professions both high and low under the 10th house in chapter LXXXIV. He does list farmers under capricorn for the 10th in book 2, as well as farmers under the 6th house in book one. But I believe that again it is your farm hand for 6th, and you as a farm hand 10th.

The difference between high jobs like king, CEO, and successful entrepeneur verses, janitor or 7-11 clerk is based on the planets dignities and aspects, not 6th vs 7th.
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sasha_i



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 288
Location: Bucuresti

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello everybody!

CCAG VIII/4, Rhetorii Aegypti capitula selecta, pp. 126-174 (Giuseppe Bezza’s translation)

Il sesto luogo è detto misero declivio e prodysis ovvero luogo che è tramontato prima [del luogo del tramonto] o prokataphora, che è caduto prima e metakosmios o intervallo tra i due mondi e Cattiva Sorte. Insegna sulle infermità, sui servi, sui nemici, sui quadrupedi e talora anche sulle attività per il suo trovarsi in trigono destro rispetto alla culminazione superiore.

The sixth house is called misery, declining or a place that sets first after the occident, or prokataphora a place that is first cadent, and metakosmios or the interval between the two worlds and it is a place of captive destiny. It is significant for infirmity, serves, enemies, quadrupeds and also for activity for being in right trigon with respect to superior culminating place
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 247

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kirk,

Thanks for your warm words & kind thoughts – greatly appreciated! Very Happy Apologies for the delay in responding.

I believe we’re very much in agreement when comes to 6th and 10th.

As you've indicated, there’s interpretive differences between natal, horary, electional and to add, mundane.
These differences akin to a shift from the inner realms (natal – where we embody all the cogs in the wheel) to the external (horary etc, where we are often represented by one cog in the wheel), which also involves an adjustment in perspective & requires a certain clarity as to what’s being asked and why when using a particular branch. Context.

For example, servants (6th) serve … and this house is involved when it comes to the service industry/sector, in addition it’s more ‘behind-the-scenes’, not so much on public display. And the service industry includes bank tellers, customer service, chefs, labourers etc through to physician/GP/MD eg. Lilly: “we usually find that Mars & Venus in Conjunction in this house are arguments of a good physician”.

If someone serves a customer they are for the time they render that service a ‘servant’. This is their role .
In a service organization they’re not usually in direct contact with the head (Ascendant) but do routinely and directly report to some higher authority (eg. 10th).

Quote:
Maybe the excessive dryness of Mars could keep the person cut off from true social engagement and participation, and locked in the strictly personal interests of work-place gains – including such unsavory activities as stealing company property, sexual conquests, and using company time and computer resources for posting at an online forum . Just some thoughts there.


Lol!!! Sounds like the early imaginings for a saucy screenplay … Leery

Sirius-ly … Cool … alternatively, maybe the treadmill is simply a bridge to their ‘higher calling’ … or maybe there’s a double-bodied sign in the mix and they have several irons in the fire while lording over a desk.

Quote:
which house you would use for the example horary question I posed earlier “Will there be a lot of lay-offs at work?”


I’d look to the 6th … in addition to what you’ve mentioned about the workplace, lay-offs also point to the health of an organization.

Kind regards,
TS
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Gem



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
servants (6th) serve … and this house is involved when it comes to the service industry/sector, in addition it’s more ‘behind-the-scenes’, not so much on public display.... If someone serves a customer they are for the time they render that service a ‘servant’. This is their role .

All the work we do in society, how high or lowly, any proffessions/occupations, not even the ones which are called the service industry, don't they ultimately involve serving other people, giving something of ourselves to society? Any work exists because there are needs/demands for it; becuase there's someone who requires it.
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gem,

Quote:
don't they ultimately involve serving other people, giving something of ourselves to society? Any work exists because there are needs/demands for it; becuase there's someone who requires it.

Hence, everyone has 6th house in a chart.

However, not everyone has that field emphasized.

The 6th is a "behind-the-scenes" house - it has no direct connection to the public projection of the 1st (the "head") and is, in derivative houses the 12th (also a "behind-the scenes" position) in relation to the public, open, one-to-one 7th.

This is the guts (lower belly), the 'intestines' of an organization - if there's a blockage here in the 'behind-the scenes' processes that are essential to facilitating the provision of services it can result in a bottle neck which can easily bring an organization to it's knees (10th).

Mars rejoices in 6th - and the "behind-the-scenes" service (servant) area within an organization is one of the first places a "razor" gang is deployed when cost-cutting.

And precisely because it is a "behind-the-scenes" area it doesn't always receive the attention (1st) or the kudos (11th) it deserves.

Context.

Organizational hierarchy.
The primary position from which a service is provided, and the nature of the service that's provided.

If the "head" of the organization (who's function/role is different to those behind-the-scenes) was going down the gurgler, we'd look to the public 1st or if it's executive management, the 10th.

If we were talking about roving reporters, direct sales etc (which are more publicly visible roles) the 3rd.

But here we're talking about lay-off's in the workforce, the labour market, we're getting into the guts of matters within the functionality of an organization, the 6th.


Kind regards,
TS
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Sei no Senshi



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:45 am    Post subject: Perspective? Reply with quote

It seems to me that this argument is based off of perspective. "What? You don't really like your job? Oh, well, that's the Sixth house then." Is this correct?

To me it seems rather silly to specifically ask a client before doing anything work or career related: "Hey, by the way...do you enjoy this job or do you just go there for the heck of it?" The problem with this is I find it difficult to see a job nowadays as "toil" or even anything close to the ideas of "slavery" originally signified by this house as today we can always find a new job and quit the old we don't like. This is still an option. Slaves, on the other hand, did not have this choice. It's work or be punished. The only type of leave awarded in slavery was death.

So, if we pursue or job (sixth house, apparently) with exuberance and enthusiasm, it magically becomes the Tenth house because we enjoy it so. However, could the same not be applied to other things? Let's say I'm koo-koo for archery and I'm so very passionate and enthusiastic about it. It's something I openly project to the world, is that also my Tenth house? I'm not just an archer at the local archery range, but an Archer (capitalized) because I enjoy it so.

Perhaps a bit apples to oranges there (admittedly), but something to consider on the terms of perspective.
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Gem



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 954

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tumbling Sphinx wrote:

Context.

Organizational hierarchy.

But here we're talking about lay-off's in the workforce, the labour market,

I didn't have this specific question in mind when I wrote yesterday.
There are different contexts of course, and also differences, as you rightly pointed out in your earlier post,

Quote:
there’s interpretive differences between natal, horary, electional and to add, mundane.


I do agree Mundane is a diferent kettle of fish. Since this is the Horary section, when we generally consider work-related Horary questions, or even nativities, I wonder if it's really necessary to differentiate as you do, or divide the work into two categories: behind the scenes part and the public 'exective management' part.

Quote:
everyone has 6th house in a chart.

And 10th Smile
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:59 pm    Post subject: Sixth for Slavery Reply with quote

Tenth versus sixth for work is a topic which has stirred up a lot of interest in several of the lists where I have been a member.

We've had several articles in the news locally in the past few months making the point that "slavery" is still alive and well in modern, "free" countries like ours. There are networks of criminals acting illegally to bring immigrants here to the USA, for exanple. Once they arrive, these immigrants have no papers to gain rightful employment and are monetarily deep in debt to their escorts. The often live in overcrowded conditions, lacking privacy or comfort to our way of thinking (say twenty or more to a small dwelling) arranged by their escorts. They are carted to jobsites where their work papers will not be questioned; they work menial jobs as temporary laborers for a fraction of what people with proper papers can bring in, and most or all of it goes to pay their debt to the escort.

Their lack of recognition in our paper-oriented society makes them personna non grata. They do not feel confident about approaching authorities with their problem because they are equally vulnerable of being accused of lawbreaking.

Just wanted to throw that into the stew. Apparently there are still situations where the use of the sixth house for slavery could apply.

I use the tenth for the querent's employment apart from slavery, myself.

Best regards,

Pam
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