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6th – not 10th – for work
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Yossarian
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe this will help. Legally, as an employee, you are under a Master-Servant relationship (at least under US civil law). The Master is responsible for the actions of his servant, so if you injure a customer or damage their property, the master is liable for those damages, and the servant can be terminated (his employment that is).

Also, employment is generally at-will, meaning you can be terminated at any time for any reason or no reason at all, the point being that like a slave, you have little or no control. Contrast that with your profession, over which you do have control (factoring in physical and mental limitations).
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:42 pm    Post subject: to Clarify Reply with quote

Hi, Yossarian

Your comment makes sense, theoretically. I think most of us have difficulty applying those principles to chart interpretation in practice, though.

So, to apply your comments, if the querent is asking about the employer, the employer or "job" is in the tenth house.

If the querent is the business owner asking about an employee, the employee is found in the sixth of the querent. Is this what you are saying?

The difference between at-will employment and slavery, as I see it , is that in at-will employment, either party (employer or employee) can discontinue the relationship "at will". Slaves who are not able to terminate their employment at will seem more similar to prisoners than to employees.

What do you think?
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Yossarian
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spirlhelix wrote:
I think most of us have difficulty applying those principles to chart interpretation in practice, though.


Sure. In natal and progressed charts you have to look at the 2nd, 6th and 10th, the signs, the rulers, dignities and aspects.

spirlhelix wrote:
So, to apply your comments, if the querent is asking about the employer, the employer or "job" is in the tenth house. If the querent is the business owner asking about an employee, the employee is found in the sixth of the querent. Is this what you are saying?


Horary astrology has its own rules. The significator for the querent is usually represented by the planet that rules the rising sign. Other significators represent other people/things. I don't fully understand horary astrology, but others here do.

spirlhelix wrote:
The difference between at-will employment and slavery, as I see it , is that in at-will employment, either party (employer or employee) can discontinue the relationship "at will". Slaves who are not able to terminate their employment at will seem more similar to prisoners than to employees.


Generally speaking, yes, that was true for chattel slavery practiced in the US, not necessarily for the type of slavery practiced in the Roman Empire or in muslim countries.
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose there are two ways to discuss this. Firstly, clarifying the traditional understanding through the sources and secondly affirming our personal experience. I am going to take the easy route at this stage and simply relate my experience.

In career/job questions I personally, use the 10th house exclusively in such matters and have been completely satisfied with the results. In fact I have always, found job related horary questions using the 10th house amongst the clearest and easiest to reach a judgement on.

However, like all good debates there are points to each sides case.

Here is a link to Christopher Warnock's Renaissance Astrology site where he justifies the use of the 6th house for the majority of job related horary questions. Kirk's view is clearly not unique. I believe Warnock studied with Lee Lehman.

http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/willigetthejob.html

http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/jobexample.html
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:38 pm    Post subject: Sixth and Tenancy Reply with quote

Thanks, Mark

I use the tenth for employment questions, too. But now I am curious: Lilly used the sixth for tenants. Back then, I think tenancy was different than it is now.

Tenancy nowadays tends to be "at will", to borrow a term from employment law. In Lilly's day, it was less so.

Actually, I use the seventh for any questions involving a contract, so "Will Mr. X become my tenant?" is a seventh-house question in my book.

Is there a time when you would look to the sixth house to find the relationship between the querent and the quesited? Do you use it for relationships between people, or anything other than illness and small animals?

I'm curious.


Regards,
Pam
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Spirlhelix,

If the subject of tenants and the 6th vs 7th house interests you here is a link to a thread where this subject was discussed at some length previously.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1989

I follow the logic of your point that employment contracts could be seen as a 7th house matter. Especially, as people reserve the right to give notice to their employer at any time. Nevertheless, irrespective of job security or length of contract I would still go with the 10th house for horary. For most of us employment is not just a contract but the way we are perceived in the world around us.

Of course this kind of speculation could be taken in other directions. What about workaholics who totally identify with their job? Should we look at the 1st house for our sense of identity?

I do think whatever decision we make on house designation its important to be consistent. Otherwise we are going to be clouded with indecision.

I confess I have limited practical experience of 6th house matters. Issues covered in this house traditionally are illness, people providing any kind of service for you and small animals (ie pets). In hellenistic astrology both the 6th and 12th house were indicative of slaves you owned. I suspect that is where the later association with tenants and the 6th house comes from. Whether that is still valid is discussed in the link above.

One general point I would make here is that this is the horary thread not the natal. Horary tends to be more rule driven and black and white so we can deliver clear decisive answers. Natal work is far more open ended and obviously would require a more flexible approach. I think this discussion will get rather confusing if people drift into natal examples.
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now lets start getting back to the sources.

As a start here is William Lilly on the 6th house:

Quote:
It concerneth men and maid-servants, galley slaves, hogs, sheep, goats, hares, conies, all manner of lesser cattle, and profit and loss got thereby; sickness, its quality and cause, principal humour offending, curable or not curable, whether the disease be short or long; day-labourers, tenants, farmers, shepherds, hogherds, neatherds, warreners;and it signifieth uncles, or the father's brothers and sisters.
It ruleth the inferior part of the belly, and intestines even..... .....to the arse: this house is a feminine and cadent house, unfortunate, as having no aspect to the Ascendant. Of colours, black colour. Mars rejoyceth in this house, but his cosignificator is of the Signs Virgo, of planets Mercury; we usually find that Mars and Venus in conjunction in this house, are arguments of a good Physician. ( Christian Astrology page 54)


Now here is Lilly on the 10th house:

Quote:
Commonly it personifies kings, princes, dukes, earls, judges, prime officers, commanders in chief, whether in armies or towns; all sorts of magistracy and officers in authority; mothers, honour, preferment, dignity, office, lawyers; the profession or trade any one useth; it signifies kingdoms, empires, dukedoms, counties. It hath of colours red and white, and ruleth the knees and hams Its called the Medium coeli or Midheaven, and is feminine. Its cosignificators are Capricorn and Mars; either Jupiter or the Sun do much fortunate this house when they are posited therein, Saturn or South Node usually deny honour, as to persons of quality, or but little esteem in the world to a vulgar person, not much joy in his profession, trade or mystery, if a mechanic.


While Kirk is right that the 10th house traditionally has associations with kings and those of high rank that is not the whole story...''honour, preferment, dignity, office..; the profession or trade any one useth''.

I don't personally accept we are signified by the 6th house in our work conditions unless it is describing a routine of complete drudgery. The 10th house is integrally linked to our public standing in the world. That remains the same whether we are US President or a street sweeper. So I would always give consideration to the 10th house.

Kirk states:

Quote:
It does seem odd to be actively wanting and seeking something from the 6th house, and using the 6th house to signify the position we desire. We’re so used to thinking of the 6th as bad, and therefore a house to avoid. But the 6th trines the 2nd and 10th – so the drudgery, routine and reigned-in self of the 6th can lead to money, recognition, and our particular way of acting in the world (10th).


I am not convinced by this argument to rehabilitate the 6th house. The point about the the aspectual relations of the 6th house tries to link it to the 10th house. Surely, that only reinforces the importance of the 10th house? Moreover, what of the 6th house relationship to the ascendant? Lilly's reference to this in the quote above is not idiosyncratic. All traditional sources from the earliest Greek sources such as Ptolemy and Valens make it clear its the relationship of a house to the ascendant that is crucial. The cusp of the 6th house is inconjunct the ascendant and therefore 'invisible' forming no ptolemaic aspect. Moreover, it represents the diurnal descent of planets into the underworld of the Egyptian Duat or Greek Hades after they sink below the horizon line. This house is a place of undeniable weakness hence its cadent status. Even if we perceive our work environment in a similar grim light I would stick with the traditional use of the 10th house for horary.

That doesn't exclude the fact that the 6th house can provide very useful additional testimony regarding the quality of a current or future job situation if one the key significators is located there or aspecting this house ruler.
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Yossarian
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:
I am not convinced by this argument to rehabilitate the 6th house. The point about the the aspectual relations of the 6th house tries to link it to the 10th house. Surely, that only reinforces the importance of the 10th house?


The aspectual relation would be a trine, an equilateral triangle.

The 12th represents institutions of confinement like hospitals and prisons, which inherently impose limitations and frustrations, as does slavery as an institution, and work/employment as an institution, plus mental and spiritual limitations frustrations. Those frustrations and limitations are reflected through the 6th House on an individual level.

To show that, a good example would be Minos, a Greek Helot. He was a slave in the Roman army that rose through the ranks to become a centurion, then the primus pilus (the chief centurion and leader of the first cohort) then to the rank of prefect (a brigadier general). Upon retirement, he was freed, granted citizenship, became a member of the military class, and was given a charter by the governor of Trier to found a colony, which still exists after 1,700 years just north of Kaiserslautern, Germany.

Minos would not have founded a colony if he had been a house-hold slave instead of a military slave. Clearly his 6th House ruler was well placed, and there were no limitations that prevented him from advancing either his social/class status or his military career. His 10th House ruler and planets would have been favorably aspected, showing not only his profession, but his prominence in that profession, and his 2nd House would have shown his wealth (and with the 4th House showed the conditions at the end of his life).

The 6th House shows, among things, your health which imposes limitations (or not) that can impact not only your earning ability (2nd) but your career (10th). You can't be a p'liceman if you have no arms or legs, unless maybe they use you as a battering ram to break down doors. It also shows limitations imposed by your job or work environment. If you work in a pub, your career path is very limited going from server to bartender at which time you've reached the pinnacle of your career, unless you open up your own pub.

MarkC wrote:
Moreover, what of the 6th house relationship to the ascendant?... Even if we perceive our work environment in a similar grim light I would stick with the traditional use of the 10th house for horary.


I agree there, but it is the 6th that will show you why, in part you did or didn't get the job. If the ruler of the 6th is well-placed in the 3rd or 9th, it might indicate that you were able to clearly communicate your skills and abilities, or your education was a factor, or that your philosophies meshed with the employer's. If it's afflicted in the 1st, maybe your personality came across flat. Afflicted in the 4th maybe the employer believed you'd be taking off too much time for family issues. None of that would be related to the Ascendant, since those are the employer's perceptions and he is the decision-maker, and here's where the trine between the 10th and 6th comes into play.
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
... what of the 6th house relationship to the ascendant? Lilly's reference to this in the quote above is not idiosyncratic. All traditional sources from the earliest Greek sources such as Ptolemy and Valens make it clear its the relationship of a house to the ascendant that is crucial. The cusp of the 6th house is inconjunct the ascendant and therefore 'invisible' forming no ptolemaic aspect. .... This house is a place of undeniable weakness hence its cadent status.

In a similar discussion a couple years ago I asked a question which, if I remember correctly, no one answered: If the 6th house is such a weak house then why is it a house of power for chart natives and horary querents? The 6th doesn’t aspect the ASC and is cadent and below the horizon, yet it gives the person power over servants, slaves and small animals. That sounds more like the 10th. On page 1 Gunhilde wrote:
Quote:
Frawley says: the 6th is "the house of the unpleasantness life throws at us": illness, especially. It represents hospitals. It represents the querent's *subordinates*, hence Lilly's use of the 6th to represent 'servants'. It is not about *being* a servant; it is about *hiring* one (or a plumber, for modern usages).

Now there’s a mixture that shows the confused state of things: The “unpleasantness life throws at us" (weakness) and the querent’s or chart native’s subordinates (strength). There seems to be a huge contradiction in the tradition here for which I’ve never seen an explanation. Following the thought of the tradition a house with no aspect to the Ascendant, cadent and beneath the horizon, should be a place of weakness and obscurity for the person and not a place of dominion over other people or small animals, or of the ability to hire servants or others to perform duties for us.
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kirk and All,

Quote:
In a similar discussion a couple years ago I asked a question which, if I remember correctly, no one answered: If the 6th house is such a weak house then why is it a house of power for chart natives and horary querents? The 6th doesn’t aspect the ASC and is cadent and below the horizon, yet it gives the person power over servants, slaves and small animals. That sounds more like the 10th.


Let me try answer your "unanswered" query...[and see whether you agree!]

The houses (as far as I know] serve three purposes:
1) One of the specific places to look for specific areas of life for the native

2) One of the considerations for measuring strength of a planet located therein

3) One of the considerations for measuring the degree of favorability and unfavorability of a planet located therein

1. House to look for areas of life

This is what everybody (modern and traditional) is taught on the function of the houses. They give us one of the specific places to look for when we consider specific areas of life for the native. Ptolemy (at least in his Tetrabiblos) did not use houses for determining specific areas of life for the native. Apparently, he only used planets and only one Lot (Lot of Fortune). Medieval astrologers are taught that planets serve as universal significators and hence, give only universal/general meanings. For us to be specific, we need to look to the house associated with the areas of life we are interested in, its rulers, planets located in the said house, the appropriate Lots and probably (for some medieval astrologers) the almutem of several of the above mentioned places.

As an example, if we are looking at the financial support for the native we look to:
a) the universal/general significator of wealth i.e. Jupiter
b) the second house - being the house of substance
c) planets located in the second house
d) ruler(s) of the second house
e) Lot of fortune and Lot of substance
f) probably Almutem of the above places
g) some unique algorithm - Bonatti came with 18!
h) others?

The process is actually to find the specific significator of wealth for the native.

As we can see, house features in all of our process in determining specific significators of the native's life. The theory is, all parts of life (at least those that interest us) are governed by one of the houses.

Although the houses are specific to the native, the meanings of the houses are universal to all. For example, the sixth house always governs native's employees. At the same time, the sixth is always cadent and in aversion to (does not aspect) the ascendant. So, everbody's sixth house = employees = weak = not good, which is of course ridiculous!

How do we go about this? The meanings of the sixth house(employees, sickness, domesticated animals) are correct and they are the same for everybody, the sixth house always governs employees, sickness, domesticated animals, etc. Although the meanings of the sixth house are associated to it being weak and evil, the sixth house should not be taken as weak and evil by itself.

The sixth house is cadent (hence, weak) and in aversion to (does not aspect) the ascendant (hence, unfavorable to the native). So, the meanings of the 6th house reflect these conditions (house of slaves, sickness, etc.) and these meanings are true for everybody.

From
Quote:
The 6th doesn’t aspect the ASC and is cadent and below the horizon, yet it gives the person power over servants, slaves and small animals. That sounds more like the 10th.


The sixth house governs servants, slaves and small animals for EVERYBODY but it does not necessarily means that EVERYBODY has power over slaves, servants, etc. To check this we may want to look at the aspects between the ascendant ruler(s) with the ruler(s) of the sixth and judge from those. If Mars (debilitated and angular) happens to rule the sixth, squaring your Lord/Lady of ascendant with no help from benefics - then you'll be totally damaged by your Mars (which may mean adversity from illnes or employess or even devoured by your pet - I am being dramatic!).

In conclusion:

House meanings = general = true for everbody e.g. 6th house rules employees - which is true for everybody

Outcomes of the house meanings = specific
e.g.
what type of employess? (the sign of the cusp of the 6th, the ruler of the 6th, the second triplicity ruler of the 6h, the sign and house position of the ruler of the 6th or second triplicity ruler of the 6th,...)

whether employess are of benefit to the native? (aspects between ruler(s) ot the 6th to ascendant and ruler(s) of ascendant, aspects by the benefics/malefics to the 6th or its ruler(s))...

Although, the cadent and/or in aversion houses are not (by themselves) problematic, the planets located therein would be! See next 2 sections below.

2. House to look for strength of the planets
If you have a planet (ruling a particular house, hence, a particular area of lilfe) in a cadent house, that planet (and area of life signified by the planet) is made weak.

Planets in angular houses (1, 4, 7, 10) are made strong. They bring the manifestations of the planet to the native (which is good for benefics). The planets are 100% effective in giving out what they promise.

Planet in succedent houses (2, 5, 8, 11) are made moderately strong. They bring the some of the manifestations of the planet to the native (and some away from the native). The planets are 50% effective in giving out what they promise.

A planet in cadent houses (3, 6, 9, 12) are made made weak. The planets are probably only 25% effective in giving out what they promise or the cadent houses take the matters signified by the planets away from the native (which is good for malefics).

In conclusion:
Planets' positions (in angular, succedent or cadent houses) give a measure of strength or effectiveness.

The above gives the measure of strength/effectiveness relative to horizon (houses)

Other ways of measuring effectiveness or strength:

Planets combust or under sun's beams are made weak.
Planets retrograde are made weak.
Planets that aspect the ascendant (close orb) are made strong. Planets in Joys are also made slightly strong.

Strength/effectiveness does not tell whether that the planet is favorable or unfavorable to the native. See below

2. House to look for favorability of the planets

Planets located in houses that aspect the ascendant (1, 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11) are made more favorable. Planets located in houses that are in aversion to the ascendant (2, 6, 8, 12) are made more unfavorable to the native.

Other considerations of favorability of planets to the native:
Planets in sect are made more favorable, planets out of sect are made more unfavorable.
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Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astrojin,

Sorry, I don’t see an answer for me. Laughing

Quote:
The sixth house governs servants, slaves and small animals for EVERYBODY but it does not necessarily means that EVERYBODY has power over slaves, servants, etc.


But even those with legions of servants, slaves and small animals have a 6th house that is cadent, below the horizon (the place where the Sun has recently died) and unconnected to the ASC. There is nothing here to make this a place of dominion, but of submission and obedience. Since the ASC always represents the querent in horary and the chart native in natal, this should consistently be a weak spot for that person. Just how weak depends on planet/sign factors. And let’s not forget the weakness of 6th house sickness issues. I just don’t see how a house of such weakness could give ANYBODY dominion over others.

Unless –

Maybe the tradition is right in assigning servants to the 6th, but not in the way we normally think. In traditional astrology everything is referred to the ASC, just as I’ve been doing with the 6th house. But what about the 10th house? I believe in Hellenistic astrology the 10th was said by some to be the most important house – at least a close second. Maybe we now look at the ASC too much. If the 6th can give us power and dominion over other people and small animals then it must be due to the trine ‘descending’ from the elevated 10th house, the house of status, splendor, reputation, glory, etc. To continue, the trine from the 10th to the 2nd gives wealth and possessions. The sextile to the 8th gives the 10th house access to the resources and assistance of others. The sextile to the 12th gives horses and cattle as wealth (not so important these days) and perhaps something on the order of the ability to act clandestinely – hidden assistance from others (Doesn’t high position usually involve or require some sort of secretiveness?). We’ve all seen how many rich and famous people have 12th house Suns.

So –

The 6th is a mixed bag: weak and strong. That could only be due to the house significations being derived from both the 1st and 10th houses. Whole sign houses and the shifting MC complicate things. That’s why I’ve been talking about the 10th and not MC – although ‘MC’ apparently referred to both in Hellenistic astrology.

I had more to say but I’ve bored myself.
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Yossarian
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Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

astrojin wrote:
As an example, if we are looking at the financial support for the native we look to:
a) the universal/general significator of wealth i.e. Jupiter
b) the second house - being the house of substance
c) planets located in the second house
d) ruler(s) of the second house
e) Lot of fortune and Lot of substance
f) probably Almutem of the above places
g) some unique algorithm - Bonatti came with 18!
h) others?


I like that. I haven't had much success with lots nor am I familiar with Almuten.

I also look at the natural rulers of the houses in question. I have Scorpio on the Ascendant with Pluto in the 10th. I consider Mars (in the 6th) to be a co-ruler/sub-ruler of Scorpio and the natural ruler of the 1st House

astrojin wrote:
f Mars (debilitated and angular) happens to rule the sixth, squaring your Lord/Lady of ascendant with no help from benefics - then you'll be totally damaged by your Mars (which may mean adversity from illnes or employess or even devoured by your pet - I am being dramatic!).


There's where we'd differ. I see the 6th as animals, whether they're farm animals or creatures in the woods, but the 5th House is where personal pets are, so I'd say someone was devoured by a hungry bear, not Fifi the pet poodle.

astrojin wrote:
Planets retrograde are made weak.


My experience says that isn't true (I have Mercury retrograde in Gemini). I also have retrograde Saturn. It would take me all day to list the writers and philosophers who have Mercury retrograde.
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 478

Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Yossarian,

astrojin wrote:
Quote:
Planets retrograde are made weak.


Yossarian wrote:
Quote:
My experience says that isn't true (I have Mercury retrograde in Gemini). I also have retrograde Saturn. It would take me all day to list the writers and philosophers who have Mercury retrograde.


Of course! I also have Mercury retrograde in Gemini (and combust for that matter!). According to the ancients if a planet is in its own domicile, exaltation or term, it lifts the weakening of retrograde and/or combust especially if its is angular (or at least not cadent), or aspects the angles (close orb), or near its stationary point... Anyway, retrograde and combust may have other meanings that are not necessarily weak e.g. if Mercury is retrograde (but not cadent) and it is significator of profession - you would have an effective profession but you would probably have to leave that profession only to return to it later (retrograde = returning).
If Mercury angular and combust and it happens to be the significator of profession - it may mean that you have clandestine dealings in your profession (combust = unseen in the sky or overpowered by the sun).
These have certainly happened to me!

To Kirk:
Well... The ancients would probably associate meanings of the 6th to those that are weak and unfavorable to the native (slaves, illness, etc.) because the 6th is cadent and in aversion to the ascendant. But once this has been established as the meanings of the 6th, all native will have 6th house meanings = slaves, illness, etc. However, the areas governed by the 6th may be strong as the ruler of the 6th is angular making your slaves and illness strong and of benefit to you (If the slaves are loyal and good to you, then your slaves are of benefit to you. Illness can bring benefit to you if you're a healer...). The meanings that cadent houses are weak and houses in aversion are unfavorable to the native are still being used to judge planets located therein (and the significations of the planets located therein). But I think I bore enough...

It is true that many powerful people have sun in the 12th. Before we jump to the conclusion that these people are weak, the ancients did not say that when sun in cadent, you are weak. They said that you are weak if your important planet is cadent and this may not be the sun! e.g. if you are born at night, your main luminary is not the sun but moon.

In Hellenistic astrology one of the most important planets is your predominator. Predominator is your main luminary (sun by day or moon by night) provided it is not cadent (except when sun is in the 9th and moon in the 3rd - their respective house of Joys). Joy can lift can lift a cadent luminary. If your main luminary is cadent, then your out of sect luminary is the predominator if it is not cadent. If both luminaries are cadent, the ruler of ascedant is taken as predominator. If ruler of ascendant is also cadent, then we default to the Part of Fortune.

Margaret Thatcher, Madonna and George Bush all have Sun in the 12th (whole sign house system).

But

George Bush's main luminary is the moon (born at night) and moon is in the 3rd house (whole sign) - hence moon = predominator (not sun). Moon in libra conjunct Jupiter in Libra both sextile Venus (Jupiter and Moon's domicile dispositor) received by Venus in Leo conj Pluto does not say he is weak!!!

Madonna was also born at night making her main luminary = moon and moon is angular in the first (whole sign) conjunct Part of Fortune and received by Mercury in his domicile... again does not say she is weak!!!

Margaret Thatcher was born during the day but sun is cadent (in 12th), hence, cannot be the predominator. Moon then becomes predominator (because she is not cadent). In her chart, Moon is in the royal sign Leo in the tenth (whole sign) which also gives her strength and power!!!

Cheerio
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Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astrojin,
Thank you, but it looks like I’m not budging. Smile

Quote:
The ancients would probably associate meanings of the 6th to those that are weak and unfavorable to the native (slaves, illness, etc.) because the 6th is cadent and in aversion to the ascendant. But once this has been established as the meanings of the 6th, all native will have 6th house meanings = slaves, illness, etc. However, the areas governed by the 6th may be strong as the ruler of the 6th is angular making your slaves and illness strong and of benefit to you (If the slaves are loyal and good to you, then your slaves are of benefit to you.

I’m sorry, but I have to reject this. The 6th is assigned to slavery and illness because of its cadency and aversion to the ascendant. But the person who ‘owns’ the ascendant in his or her chart gets dominion over slaves that are of benefit simply through a well-placed 6th house ruler? The 6th house now becomes strong and helpful simply because its ruler is sittin’ pretty? In relation to the Ascendant it makes more sense to say the 6th is where everybody runs the risk of being ‘lowered’ and under another person’s rule. The 6th house ruler and planets therein would determine how extensively the chart native would likely need to experience humility and obedience.

For power and dominion in the 6th there must be house meanings carried-over from the 10th house as a starting point. This may be telling us that we are going overboard with the Ascendant. It could be that due to vague, untranslated or lost sources we are missing much of the MC's importance in early astrology.

Recently there was a thread in praise of A. J. Pearce. http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3286

A few weeks ago I noticed Figure 2 on page 40 of his ‘Text-Book’. All the house cusps are annotated to show their angular relationship to the ASC or MC. Both angles are used to reference the houses. On page 38 Pearce writes: “ The most powerful angle is the south, the next in order of power is the east”. A different viewpoint from what we’re used to.

In order to give a larger sampling of Pearce, on page 39 he writes:
“The ancients regarded a planet located in a cadent house as extremely weak, in nativities, but I think this is a mistake – at least in regard to the 12th and 9th houses (a star located in either of these houses is above the earth)”.

And: “In fact, too much reliance has been placed on the power of houses in nativities”. Now there’s something to make us uncomfortable!


Quote:
In Hellenistic astrology one of the most important planets is your predominator. Predominator is your main luminary (sun by day or moon by night) provided it is not cadent (except when sun is in the 9th and moon in the 3rd - their respective house of Joys). Joy can lift can lift a cadent luminary. If your main luminary is cadent, then your out of sect luminary is the predominator if it is not cadent. If both luminaries are cadent, the ruler of ascedant is taken as predominator. If ruler of ascendant is also cadent, then we default to the Part of Fortune.

I’ve never heard this before. What are the sources? (That is, was it the mainstream Hellenistic view?) I always thought it was simply day=Sun, night =Moon.

George W. Bush was a day birth. Razz
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 478

Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Kirk:


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George W. Bush was a day birth

Yeah, aplogies for such blatant error but the rest of the analyses are still correct. It should read: "born at day time but main luminary is cadent, hence moon is predominator (asl long as she is not cadent or located in third)"

Quote:
It could be that due to vague, untranslated or lost sources we are missing much of the MC's importance in early astrology.

Some of the anicent astrologers did not even "calculate" MC. They simply calculate the tenth from ascendant as "most elevated position". Under whole sign houses system, MC is not fixed in the tenth. By the way, MC is the highest point that sun can reach (intersection of the circle of Ecliptic to the Meridian). It is certainly not the highest point in the sky (it is not Zenith). Furthermore, it not as personal as ascendant (horoskopos, the only point that is the native) as it not a function of terrestrial latitude (unlike ascendant).

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I’ve never heard this before. What are the sources? (That is, was it the mainstream Hellenistic view?) I always thought it was simply day=Sun, night =Moon.

Source: Lectures given by Robert Schmidt, on of which was the introduction to Hellenistic astrology in St Petersburg. In this lecture, he talked about the navigational allegories in astrology (very interesting!).

Many Hellenistic sources favor angularities positions of the planets. It is difficult for a planet to manifest its significations if it is cadent. They also had a number of "ruling" planets i.e. predominator, oikodespotes and kurios of the chart. The main luminary is of course, the most important planet to look at but if it is cadent, then the out of sect luminary is more tellling of the native's life. The process of determining predominator and oikodespotes is quite mechanical but the determination of kurios is a bit more involved. The chart is likened to a ship whose "life" is the predominator, owner is the oikodespotes, executor is the kurios, ascendant = helm, part of fortune (and its ruler) as the man who stands on the prow of the ship looking out for "fortunes" and the trigon lords of the main luminary (or predominator) as the sails (first and second trigon lords) and oars (third trigon lord).

PS: According to Schmidt, the sixth is worse than the 12th as it is below the horizon and some hellenistic astrologers put 6th as the house of secret enemies not 12th! In this case, it goes against "mainstream" medievalists...[/i]
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