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6th – not 10th – for work
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Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astrojin,

Thanks for the reply and all the information.
Quote:

Some of the anicent astrologers did not even "calculate" MC. They simply calculate the tenth from ascendant as "most elevated position". Under whole sign houses system, MC is not fixed in the tenth. .... Furthermore, it not as personal as ascendant (horoskopos, the only point that is the native) as it not a function of terrestrial latitude (unlike ascendant).

I’ve read that in Hellenistic astrology ‘Midheaven’ could refer to both the whole sign 10th house and the floating MC. A couple posts ago I mentioned that this moving MC does complicate things, but if the Hellenistic astrologers used 'midheaven' for both the 10th house and the angle we’re still ok to look at the 10th house trine to the 6th.

I think the 10th can be quite personal. On page 13 of her book The Houses: Temples of the Sky Deb (Houlding, for new visitors here) writes:
“ .... the 10th house signifies the status, reputation, and position in life to which we aspire.”

And:
“As the pinnacle of the chart, the 10th house shows the aspects of our personalities that we manifest out into the public world – our ‘professional’ selves. It indicates the social standing that we may attain by our own efforts, as opposed to the legacy of family status attached to the name or lineage which classical astrologers related to the 4th house.”

So the 10th is very much a personal house in that it gives indications of our personalities in the wider world, and how we act in the world to make ourselves known in the world as individuals apart from the family or clan. The Ascendant is important as signifying the self. The 10th signifies the opportunity of an expanded self by moving within a world larger than the home base of the 4th.


Quote:
According to Schmidt, the sixth is worse than the 12th as it is below the horizon and some hellenistic astrologers put 6th as the house of secret enemies not 12th! In this case, it goes against "mainstream" medievalists...

So once again, how could such a weak house give a person dominion over other people and animals if we use the Ascendant as our only reference? We need to bring in the 10th house and its trine the to 6th – and that necessarily must change or enlarge our view of other houses, such as the 8th and 12th.

Am I too persistent? Smile
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 490

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello again

Quote:
So once again, how could such a weak house give a person dominion over other people and animals if we use the Ascendant as our only reference?


Then, don't use the house. Use its lord.

Quote:
Am I too persistent?

Of course. So am I.
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Yossarian
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Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
I’ve read that in Hellenistic astrology ‘Midheaven’ could refer to both the whole sign 10th house and the floating MC. A couple posts ago I mentioned that this moving MC does complicate things, but if the Hellenistic astrologers used 'midheaven' for both the 10th house and the angle we’re still ok to look at the 10th house trine to the 6th.


If you ask me, the Greeks were the least competent people on the planet. The ancients knew the Earth was round; that the Earth orbited the Sun; that there were planets beyond Saturn and they have the tables and diagrams and charts to prove it; and were more knowledgeable in science and medicine.

The newer western Greeks acquired that information from the older eastern Greek civilization, specifically through the writings of Berossus of Chaldea. They chose to ignore that knowledge, Aristotle perverted it, and humanity is dealt a stunning set back of 1,000 years, because the Greeks decided that the Earth is flat, the center of the universe, there's a hell and devils and demons, human reproduction is through "spontaneous regeneration" and illness/disease is caused by "colored gases."

To make matters worse, the roman catholic church adopted all of Aristotle's teachings and then tortured and murdered anyone who spoke in the contrary.

I couldn't possibly consider the Greeks to be knowledgeable of the heavens, and their astrological teachings are based on a false view of the universe and very bad information, and therefore they can be dismissed entirely.

Kirk wrote:
So once again, how could such a weak house give a person dominion over other people and animals if we use the Ascendant as our only reference?


It can't. In fact the Ascendant has little or no bearing whatsoever. It's almost entirely the 2-6-10 relationship.

People who value (2nd) life will go into professions like medicine, or be police or firefighters. People who value people will go into social work, parole/probation officer, psychology, psychiatry, sociology etc. People who value money will choose professions related to that.

Some doctors have a good beside manner, some don't, and there happy salespersons and grumpy salespersons and sad salespersons and indifferent sales persons and friendly salespersons, that's personality, and it has no bearing on career/job/profession. We don't say, well, you have a passive-aggressive personality so here's a list of career fields and jobs you can choose from, or you're an overly mean prick, so you can only work as a police officer or you're beautiful, so you can't work as a cook.

A person's Ascendant has no bearing on whether or not they owned slaves, that's purely a 2nd House thing. Even in ancient times some people abhorred slavery. It had nothing to do with their personality, and everything to do with their values.
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Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yossarian,

About your ideas of the Greeks: You are referring to the ancient Greeks of planet Earth, right? I don’t recognize the people in your portrait. I’m usually good with faces.

About houses and the Ascendant: I’ve been referring to the historical development of house meanings as said to be derived from their aspectual relation to the Ascendant. The nature of a particular chart’s Ascendant and its description of one individual’s personality have nothing to do with my argument.

By the way, I personally reject the modern 2nd house meaning of ‘values’. Also, slaves were always a 6th and/or 12th house matter. But it would be interesting to know if historically the 2nd house was also looked at.
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Yossarian
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Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
Yossarian,

About your ideas of the Greeks: You are referring to the ancient Greeks of planet Earth, right? I don’t recognize the people in your portrait. I’m usually good with faces.


Yes, the Classical Hellenistic World, about 350 BC to the Battle of Actinium, then the Romans adopted their nonsense and spread it. Fortunately, Indian culture rejected it as did Arab (pre-Muslim) culture, and the cultures in the Americas were not contaminated. Aristotle was probably the worst offender, and his teachings were incredibly damaging to the western world, especially since they persisted through the 17th Century.

Kirk wrote:
By the way, I personally reject the modern 2nd house meaning of ‘values’.


Lilly associates it with wealth and substance. You might have seen the phrase "the Pursuit of Happiness" in the Declaration of Independence and other documents. That phrase stems from the liberal philosophies developed prior to and during Lilly's life.

In spite of what people might believe, the Pursuit of Happiness has nothing to do with happiness, rather it means the acquisition of material wealth. That is to say that the Pursuit of Happiness means obtaining land, money and other material possessions, ie substance and wealth.

That is not open for debate, because it is the verbatim definition presented by Hobbes and other classical liberal philosophers in the 1500s and 1600s. The Pursuit of Happiness is the acquiring of material wealth, and as people acquired more material wealth, it resulted in a change in the values people held, demanding more freedoms and rights and demanding institutions and laws to protect their material wealth from arbitrary confiscation by the government or other parties without just cause, and that put the western world on the path to democracy.

If you study charts, look at the 2-5-8 relationship. If the 5th/8th Houses are activated, how will that manifest itself? Will the native rekindle the love in their 7-year marriage, or will the native have dozens of extra-marital affairs with complete strangers? The question cannot be answered without looking at the 2nd House to see if the native's values have changed.

Kirk wrote:
Also, slaves were always a 6th and/or 12th house matter. But it would be interesting to know if historically the 2nd house was also looked at.


I don't know, but I suppose it might. Slaves were considered property, at least in the US and western world, which practiced chattel slavery. In 17th Century Iran, upon hearing reports that slaves were being abused in two southern Iranian cities, the Shah sent an army, destroyed both cities, killed all Muslim men and women, gave the children to other Muslim families and freed the slaves. I believe the last execution for abusing a slave was in the Ottoman Empire around 1878 or so (slavery was abandoned shortly afterward). In the classical world, slaves weren't considered property per se, but a man's wealth was measured by the number of his slaves and oxen and so on.

In all cultures that practiced slavery, there was at least a means for slaves to gain freedom, but not so in the western world (excluding the pre-colonial Americas).
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Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yossarian,

You range far and wide. Following you would only be a distraction.
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 247

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Gem, Kirk & all,

Sorry for late response Gem … just doing a little catching up. Very Happy

Quote:
Gem: "I wonder if it's really necessary to differentiate as you do, or divide the work into two categories: behind the scenes part and the public 'executive management' part."


Well, to start I do make a distinction between horary & natal as they’re two different beasts (for want of a better description, sorry!)

In a nativity I think it’s perfectly natural we look to 10th for vocation, professional standing, our vocational aspirations & potential, our personal point of 'mastery' etc.

We embody the whole of the natal chart, or the natal chart is a symbolic representation of our cosmic embodiment & manifestation (gee, did I just say that! – hope it makes sense) – and by and large humans as individuals like to consider themselves from a position on top of the heap. Leery

But when we step into horary, we become one of many players – we’re usually represented by a portion of the chart in relation to the nature of the question asked rather than the whole chart.

This has a way of putting vocational aspirations and personal mastery (10th) back into perspective if we consider who and what areas we might report to via our daily labours (6th).

It’s not that I neatly divide work into two neat categories, however life consists of “public” (on display) areas & “private” (behind the scenes) areas … just as houses & their sign co-sig’s are masculine-feminine, areas where energy’s exerted or assimilated… these qualities to me being as natural as day & night, sun & moon, as well as being fundamental to astrology.

I think there is a danger in narrowly defining 6th as being simply for the likes of illness or slavery – it misses a lot and has more scope than that. At least I think it does.

For example, why is it a place for “day labourers” (Lilly) when it’s below the horizon in diurnal motion, following sunset? Work that’s done that by nature is not readily visible, not on display, aka more behind the scenes.

In direction of succession, which relates to passage of time in excess of a day (ie. orbit) it’s an area planets also succeed (progress and rise) through.

It has a trading/commercial (Mercury co-signif.) dimension with “profit & loss’ from lesser cattle.
It’s also a place for tenants, many people in this day and age rent their homes - in tight rental markets choices are limited, excercise of free will is restricted, and someone's home, where they live, is related (sextile) to the work they do & what they can afford.

If talking about slavery then I think need to consider it in context of times where slavery formed a large part of societies and the types of duties/services they rendered then roll it forward to this day and age, rather than go by perhaps narrower definitions perceived in this day and age.

For example, there were the extraordinarily tough and unforgiving circumstances involved in slavery, but there were also slaves who were permitted to operate their own business so long as they paid taxes to their master until such time as paid their way free.

These days its government that collects taxes & corporations/banks who usually own the roof over a person’s head for some 20-30 years - mortgage.

The most common types of slave work were domestic service, agriculture, cultivation, mineral extraction, army make-up, textile trade and metalworking for industry and commerce.

There were things such as bonded slavery and indentured servants where people agreed to serve for a period of 7 years for example (there’s an estimated 10-20 million people subjected to debt bondage which is again different in this day and age.)

Many slaves were also part of the armed services (Mars rejoices in this house) or convicted of a crime for which they did not have the property/resources to compensate.

When start thinking about the level of debt many individuals are carrying, just how free are they?

Naturally when someone’s ill this impacts daily labour/service, which also impacts 10th and 2nd. And likewise if 10th impacted it readily flows through to the other two.

Profession/trade/mastery of 10th involves some sort of prior qualifications and/or period of tenure (eg. apprenticeship, hard work, 6th) ... what if someone doesn’t have these? Doesn’t stop someone rising to the top, but to do so usually also involves a term of hard work (6th).

If asking a question such as am I going to be retrenched, laid off or sacked, then considering 10th to me is looking more at what those at the top – those in positions of authority intend to do in relation to that person’s daily labour (6th) ... which if someone has a mortgage, family to support, other debts etc, the risk of loss is likely to set the nerves jangling if not give them a case of indigestion to say the least. Unless they’ve had a gutful (6th) and decide to chuck it in, run away. Smile

It's not surprising that astrologers had serious concerns about the 6th – it’s the 12th of 7th which is the position of the astrologer in horary. A misdiagnosis or miscalculation could easily bring an astrologer undone.

Kind regards,
TS.
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