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The Planets and Religions.
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Draco



Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 176
Location: England.

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know, so let's say that we didn't have the (inevitably biast) ancient Muslim testimonies as to which planet presides over Islam, and we had to make such an association based upon our observations, then what would be the nature of the attribution you'd make?

I'm a heathen, so I'm completely impartial. I'm going for Mars.

How Venusian in the niqab? How feminist is Islam? How sexually celebrational is Islam? When was the last time you had a pamphlet thrust under your nose by a Muslim on the streets of your country declaring 'PEACE, LOVE AND HAPPINESS!'? The last time this happened to me, it declared, 'HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN!', as if I didn't already know. Razz Hardly Venusian.

I do respect tradition, of course I do, although while the Muslim astrologers (Al-Khayyat and Al-Biruni reveal to me a lot and I respect and appreciate them both very much), however, as far as I have experienced and witnessed in my life in this world, and in mind of that which I have gleaned from the Qu'ran. Venus? You've got to be kidding me. The theory of books (of Muslims) contradicts life in practice, as far as I can see.

Then again...my mind is never completely closed to anything.
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I dug up my copy of The Picatrix, so here is the list:

Saturn - Judaism
Jupiter - monotheism (the word it uses is "unitatem", so that's my interp)
Mars - Heretics
Sun - Foreign religions and the worship of planetary spirits
Venus - Islam (it actually says "Saracen", so again this is my interp)
Mercury - Here's the quote: "out of religions he rules all which are forbidden and the inquiry into other religions and the religions of the philosophers and that which follows reason"
Moon - Again a quote: "she rules the worship of idols and images"

So it would be inferred that Jupiter is Christianity, Mars would be atheism amongst other things, the Sun with planetary magic, and the Moon is paganism.
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since astrology can usefully describe everything in our muddy little sublunar sphere, choosing a planet to step in and signify a religion is perfectly ok and gives us another piece of representation to work with. In mundane work we thereby are given clues as to which religions may be experiencing turmoil during a certain period and in horary we might get an answer to the question of which religion has appealed to a secretive, apostate child (If the question hasnít ever been asked before, it will be).

But trying to contain all of a religion within that planet, and trying to fully describe the beliefs, practices and psychological character of the religion through that planet is the wrong approach and forces the planet to give more information than itís capable of. The planet only points to the signified object Ė the religion. The planet is not like an encyclopedia entry or book about the religion. The use of a single planet to signify a religion does not give that planet the task of fully describing the religion to us.
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4966
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am generally in agreement with what Kirk has said here. Assuming we could agree a consensus on what the traditional attributions of the religions are by planet (which it seems we cannot) I am sceptical about this whole approach.

There are differences within all organised religions betweeen conservative and liberal wings. So if we are describing Islam are we thinking of the poetry of Rumi and the wisdom of the Sufi mystics or are we seeking to see it through the modern prism of Jihadist terrorism? As someone has earlier suggested religions are a spectrum of belief and opinion so it is probably more useful to agree significators for fundamentalist and liberal wings within particular faiths. Thus in Islam there are theological differences between the Sunni and Shia sects but the more important difference is surely those willing to use violence to oppress others with their viewpoint? What about Mars and Saturn for the fundamentalists? Just a thought, not another dogma.

I feel we have to acknowledge noone comes to the subject of religion without pre-conceptions and the traditional astrological sources are no exception. Not surprisingly Muslims often identify their faith with a benefic. Christians are probably tempted to do the same. Picking up the theme of the origin of the Islamic Crescent Moon symbol it seems the immediate source was Christian Byzantium. However, it has very ancient origins:

http://islam.about.com/od/history/a/crescent_moon.htm

One of the limitations of the astrological sources in the western tradition from the Arab era onwards is that they see religion through the prism of the mono-theism of the so called Semitic religions. However, we increasingly, live in plural societies (in the west anyway) where other faiths such as Buddhism, Sikhism and Hinduism are well represented. Are they just be typified as heathen 'others'? That judgement in itself is very loaded. Looking outside The West and Middle East what about planets for Buddhism and Hinduism which have significantly more followers than Judaism today? For example, the recent Tibetan uprising? Its starts to get rather ridiculous when you bring these ideas down to practical astrology. I know that is not the fault of the arabic and medieval astrological sources. I just question whether they still have any validity today.

So does attributing particular planets to specific religions have any practical application? Judging by this thread I think not. That is not to state the subject isn't interesting historically but I doubt it will have any relevance to working mundane astrology.

Incidentally someone earlier mentioned a horoscope for Islam. I think its usually quoted as July 15, 622 (CE), 10:19:14 pm LMT, Medina, Saudi Arabia. That gives an Ascendant of 00'45 Aries. Sun in Cancer and a host of planets in Leo: Moon, Saturn, Venus and Mercury. I am not vouching for the accuracy of this chart for lots of reasons. For example the vagaries of the lunar calendar. Moreover, this traditional date may be wrong for other reasons:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_%28Islam%29

There is meant to have been an astrologer on scene to record the emigration of Muhammed and his followers from Mecca to Medina. This represented the beginning of the first Islamic community. Although this may well have been rectified by later Islamic astrologers to a more suitable time.

Nevertheless, this date does seem significant as one Islamic astrologers have associated with the birth of Islam. In that sense like charts for the 4th of July 1776 it has a symbolic significance that almost transcends any historical details.

I don't have access to my copy of Nicholas Campion's book but I would have thought Muhammed's eventual entrance into Mecca and the seizure of the Kaaba in 630 CE would be a key event too.
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really look at attributing planets to religions as just another thing that can be added to a long list of attributes. I don't think the intention is to claim that Saturn contains all that Judaism consists of. It's just a significator. This is sort of like your rising sign - it doesn't include all your essence as a person, but the ruling planet may signify you in certain situations.
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