skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Interesting piece of research into early Births

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Yikkes!



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 305

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:28 pm    Post subject: Interesting piece of research into early Births Reply with quote

Hi Folks,

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/mar/26/medicalresearch.children

(edit) originally I suggested these were forced births.

H.
_________________
Yikkes!


Last edited by Yikkes! on Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sunny Dawn



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 144
Location: Brunswick, MD

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:17 pm    Post subject: Yikes, what's your point? Reply with quote

Premature births are bad for babies - we've known this for a long time. These are not "forced" births. Nobody is forcing a baby to be born prematurely. And I really question why you posted this on an astrology forum, and what your point is.

If you want to connect this to astrology, go back and find a myth with associations connected to premature births. Zeus sewing Dionysius up inside his thigh so that he could be "incubated" and kept alive, and thus "twice-born", perhaps. Dionysius was said by some to have been raised as a girl, if I remember the old myths correctly. That may have been the culture's way of allowing a premature child to "catch up", particularly in a milieu where boys were expected to participate in strenuous activity.

But don't stick a post up without explanation, especially one that conflates "forced" births with induced delivery, which is what I think you may be implying. This is offensive.
_________________
All I know is that if my birth chart was a horary, the answer would be "No".

My Blog: http://slushpileastrology.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yikkes!



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 305

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes you are right they are NOT forced but I've been looking for some evidence that supports the idea that early births are damaging.

I posted it on an Astrology site because there are regular discussions about how births that didn't make the 9 months might effect people's lifes and what Astrologers should do.

Here is some comments from Alice McDermott who's done a lot of work in this area.

"Hi all

Yikkes has asked me to post information about my work on this subject so here goes.

For many years I have been interested in genetic astrology and have done extensive work on conception and birth charts.

I determine the conception chart using the prenatal epoch method and then fine tune using harmonics.

The pre-natal epoch system says that the degree and sign of the Moon at conception will be the degree and sign of the Ascendant or Descendant at birth and the position of the Moon at birth will be the degree and sign of the Ascendant or Descendant at conception. I have found this to be correct if the birth is natural and without trauma.

A child can only be conceived if the energies at the time are part of the family genetic pattern. At the time of conception the process of determining the sex of the baby is set in motion. The date and time of birth is also set in motion as the child must be born at a time that is harmonious with the genetic pattern of the family and that echoes the sex of the baby determined by the time of conception.

So there is a strong natural flow between the date and time of conception and the date and time of birth.

The prenatal epoch system offers a system of male and female degrees, as does the system on Skyscript mentioned by Yikkes. They are a little different and to date I favour the system on Skyscript. Simply put it works like this. If a person is conceived with a male degree on the Ascendant and Moon then he will develop as a male and will be born with a male degree rising on the Ascendant. If a person is conceived with a female degree on the Ascendant and Moon she will be born with a female degree rising.

'Artificial' medically assisted births interfere with this natural process. Medicine as yet doesn't understand the delicate balance between conception and birth and how traumatic it can be if this is disrupted unnecessarily.

If a baby is born by caesarean or induction it is possible that they are born at a time when the rising degree is opposite to their gender. This can also occur with forceps delivery. It is also possible that they are born at a time that doesn't genetically fit with their family.

As all astrologers know, the moment of birth (first breath) is a very powerful time of imprint of the energies of the Earth, solar system and to some degree, galaxy. It takes precedence over all other patterning. So if a person is born with a rising degree that is opposite to their gender, then they tend to be confused about how to relate to that energy. You can get males who have a female degree rising and females who have a male degree rising who feel that they are in the wrong bodies - that they should have been the opposite sex. Most people make compromises and are able to adjust, but some have considerable problems.

By the way, this is not a signature of homosexuality, which, as far as I have been able to determine, is a natural development - part of the cycle of nature.

Problems also arise if the time of the medically assisted birth doesn't fit into the genetic pattern of the family. The child always feels somewhat 'alien' to the family, they feel they don't fully belong. This can be a source of considerable pain.

Interestingly, I have found that if a child was born through medical assistance to save their or their mother's life, they usually manage to be born at a time that fit their conception requirements. This is not always the case with medically assisted births for the convenience of the doctor or parents. The wrong time chosen can be a recipe for life long discomfort in their body for the child and perhaps a feeling of no connection to their family.

Alice McDermott"

And as Basil Brush would say:

"Nice to see you! To see you nice !!! Boom! Boom!"
_________________
Yikkes!


Last edited by Yikkes! on Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sunny Dawn



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 144
Location: Brunswick, MD

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:41 pm    Post subject: Respectfully, I read this and considered it... Reply with quote

Okay, I apologize in advance because I know I'm going to stir up a hornet's nest here, but I guess I'll put my neck out on principle (and I just know I'm gonna regret it!)

Fair Disclosure: I was a medical student who would have gone into obstetrics had I remanied in medical school. As an astrologer, I've followed enough charts of youngsters to conclude that children are part of their family, and born at the time they are supposed to be born, whether as a result of induced delivery, or not.

I'm not very familiar with the technique for determining male or female rising degrees, but I suspect this more frequently in tomboys who grow into agressive women, and sensitivity in boys who grow into men with a certain degree of effeminacy. I would not be quick to link this to gender confusion, or the transgendered phenomenon, which is a small percentage of live births. Could it be a marker? Sure, absolutely. Is it a cause? No. I'm betting the phenomenon would be a lot more common if it were a cause.

Uranus on the Nadir with Pluto in the 3rd House is a marker for children who feel "alienated" from their family of origin. This occured in a lot of births throughout the 1970's, when natural childbirth was far more in vogue than it is today. My baby sister was born as a result of a natural childbirth with this configuration, and indeed, she never fit into our family, as far as siblings were concerned. This was meant to be.

My brother and I were my mother's first two children. We were born vaginally with medical intervention. My Vedic Moon is tightly conjunct a fallen Saturn. My brother has a fallen Vedic Moon opposite Saturn. Our mother died when we were teen-agers. My baby sister grew up thinking of another woman as her mother. My stepmother is from a Latin culture, and one of the most corrosive aspects of that culture is its tendency to mistreat stepchildren. One need only read Isabel's Allende's most recent book to see this toxicity in action.

My stepmother thought of her husband's older children as pawns. She claimed the "baby" as the daughter she had never had. Our mother's death, and my sister's alienation show up clearly in our charts. All three births occured when they were meant to, regardless of intervention or lack of intervention at the time of birth.

My sister-in-law just gave birth nine months ago in a planned C-section. She is blind in one eye, and the doctor did not want her to push. This was not done to save her life or the life of the baby. It was simply done to prevent a possible worsening of her vision. My darling little neice was born with clear markers linking her to us. Her Sun is on the exact degree of my baby sister's Moon, both conjunct the warrior Bellatrix with less than a degree of orb (I know, the mouths on these two women are going to be the death of me). I don't think there is any doubt that my niece was born at a time connecting her with our family.

My personal feeling: If an astrologer intervenes to give the baby a more advantageous birth time, this was meant to happen for this child in this lifetime. It is not interfering with the gods' plan for this baby. It is the gods' plan for this baby.

This personal feeling cannot be validated by science. But children from large families born of a mixture of deliveries with intervention and natural deliveries from the same mother could theoretically be studied. And I have a feeling those families would look a lot like mine. This hypothesis needs to be considered alongside of McDermott's differing hypothesis linking conception to birth.
_________________
All I know is that if my birth chart was a horary, the answer would be "No".

My Blog: http://slushpileastrology.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yikkes!



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 305

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sunny Dawn,

I think you are spot on.

My feeling is that people who didn't come along at the right time often feel apart from their family and environments.

Also I think people with intercepted signs are the same.

But I think we'll be feeling this more and more as the Age of Individualism develops.

I was induced with Uranus on my Asc, so no surprise about that theoretically, but plenty in practice.

But if you look Evolutionarily at my family at the time. Business going bust, big problems, 4 children to feed. Perhaps the end of that Line so somebody interveened to push me out and away from my family's harmonies.

Who knows.

H.
_________________
Yikkes!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated