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Failed Predictions of WWII
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Repetition is the key that unlocks the timing of the prediction. If we see the same thing in the subsequent charts or similar things in those charts that are in the main chart, we know that this is the time period in which the promise of the chart will be fulfilled. In the above example of WWII, the Aries ingress promises war. The Cancer ingresses tells us it will occur between the summer solstice and autumnal equinox. Other charts will narrow it even more and that is the subject of my next post. However if none of the subsequent ingress charts showed us war or a repetition of the Aries ingress, then we could predict "no war" or perhaps minor skirmishes that will not escalate into war. Also if the Aries Ingress shows peace and a subsequent ingress shows war, we would not predict a major conflict only perhaps a minor one.


Ok, the relationship between Aries and subsequent Cancer ingress presaging war is easily understood. But what if the war happens in the first quarter of the year, before we get to the Cancer ingress? How can we discover this potential?
Thanks Smile
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Ok, the relationship between Aries and subsequent Cancer ingress presaging war is easily understood. But what if the war happens in the first quarter of the year, before we get to the Cancer ingress? How can we discover this potential?

Thanks



Probably lunations. The next part of this prediction show how to narrow it down within the quarter. I have some work left to do on that, but basically we would look for a lunation that occurs prior to the Cancer Ingress that duplicates the Aries Ingress. At least that's the way it appears to me.

Tom
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cor scorpii



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Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, lunations. Very Happy that's the way I thought about the possible trigger,too - and that means I was on the right track.

Morin's astrology always intrigued me, but I've never had a chance to discuss its principles(I don't have the books, either Sad but hope some day I will have them). Some material can be found on the net, but that's only enough to make you hungry and want a lot more.
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Eddy



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Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know what it is but there's something I like when I read things from Morin in this forum.

Quote:
"Particular Constitutions" are nativities in Morin's view, but ironically would include national charts - a technique that did not exist in the 17th century.
The typical 'nation state' only developed in the 19th century after Napoleon. 'Nationalism' also is a 19th century 'invention'. Of course there were countries with borders (the Netherlands were a 'republic' during period before the French Revolution) but usually these were related to a member of the nobility. So this may be the cause of the non-existance.

Quote:
In 1938, a French astrologer named Jean Hieroz, made a prediction of war based on ingress charts using the teachings of Morin deVillefranche. I wonder if the astrologers, including Carter, that missed the war had ever heard of Hieroz or Morin.
I have a book (a 1970's reprint of a 1930's trilogy) from a Dutch astrologer, Cornelis Gorter, who also describes Morin's techniques of which he calls 'doctrine of determination. 104 aphorisms are discussed. He however does use the modern planets sometimes in these. Perhaps I should study these chapters to get a taste of Morin.

Gorter mentions the Frenchman Selva (and his book "La théorie des déterminations astrologiques de Morin"Bodin 1902) as his source and the Austrian Schwickert/Sindbad being familiar with Morin. Perhaps there were several groups more inclined to Morin than to Leo. Several other of my Dutch pre WWII books seem almost entirely based upon Leo and Blavatsky'an doctrine.

Quote:
All prediction, natal and mundane, rests on the same principles. There is a base chart. That base chart contains the promise or potential of that which we are looking at. In a nativity it is obviously the natal chart. In mundane it can be one of the following: Jupiter - Saturn Conjunction, Mars - Saturn conjunction, Jupiter - Mars conjunction, eclipse charts, charts for comets, and I suppose he would include, if he accepted them, charts for nations. He calls natal charts "particular constitutions," and charts for mundane astrology, "universal constitutions."
Should these conjunctions give charts for the moment of exact conjunction giving a chart for the coming period? Like the Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions of 1980 and 2000 gave charts for the following 20 years? And what about Jupiter and Saturn ingresses (in Aries), are these also involved?

Quote:
The repeating of the angles of the base chart is a good indication the promise of the chart will be fulfilled. The reversal indicates the promise will be harmed. This is very broad so don't use it as a stand alone rule.
I'm not sure if I understand this, because the angles repeat themselves every 24 siderial hours. Or should this be interpreted in terms of the yearly Aries ingress charts? If that is the case note that every 33 years the Aries ingress (or any repeating Sun position, like Solar returns) will give the same Ascendant and MC.

I also once read that the astrologers were very optimistic about the future in the late 1930's. Not only the astrologers. The Great Depression came to an end and even Hitler's actions in the 1930's were rather admired by other countries. Finally in 1939 it became clear to most that Hitler wouldn't stop.

Another one of the few astrologers who weren't optimistic about the future of the late 1930's was the Indian astrologer B.V. Raman.
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Should these conjunctions give charts for the moment of exact conjunction giving a chart for the coming period? Like the Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions of 1980 and 2000 gave charts for the following 20 years?


Yes. Morin does not spend as much time on these as he acknowledged that accurately casting a chart for such a conjunction was nearly impossible in his day. I wonder if we are that much better at it today.

Quote:
And what about Jupiter and Saturn ingresses (in Aries), are these also involved?


Not that I am aware of, and if so, they would be of minor importance.

Quote:
I'm not sure if I understand this, because the angles repeat themselves every 24 sidereal hours. Or should this be interpreted in terms of the yearly Aries ingress charts? If that is the case note that every 33 years the Aries ingress (or any repeating Sun position, like Solar returns) will give the same Ascendant and MC.


In nativities let us propose a chart that has 15 Taurus rising and 20 Aquarius on the MC. Every once in a while, the solar return will have the ASC in Taurus and the MC in Aquarius. Not always both at the same time, but that can happen, too. In those years, when Taurus is on the ASC and/or Aquarius is on the MC, those charts are considered particularly powerful. The closer the degrees in the revolution match the degree of the nativity, the more powerful it is.

Every so often the angles in the Solar Return are opposite the angles in the nativity. Those years are powerful too. The older authors universally say this is bad, but I think practice indicates it isn't necessarily bad or as bad as they predict.

These are strong indicators that the particular revolution is important.

In mundane, the base chart is the Aries Ingress. In the example above, the angles of the Aries Ingress are repeated in the Cancer Ingress when both are set for Paris. The same principles apply as apply in nativities.


Quote:
I also once read that the astrologers were very optimistic about the future in the late 1930's. Not only the astrologers. The Great Depression came to an end and even Hitler's actions in the 1930's were rather admired by other countries. Finally in 1939 it became clear to most that Hitler wouldn't stop.


The Great Depression did not end in the 1930s. Recent intelligent scrutiny has shown that WWII didn't end it either. In the US, the stock market crash of 1937 was in many ways worse than the crash in 1929. The American Gross National Product (as it was called in those days. It is the Gross Domestic Product today or GDP) didn't hit its pre 1929 levels until 1955; 10 years after the war ended.

Hitler, like every other mass murderer in the 20th century, was praised by the NY Times. This is not a pretty track record. Not everyone was fooled, however, but not many listened to Churchill until it was too late. In the US, Hitler had strong support among German immigrants and others, including founding father Joseph P. Kennedy, aviator Charles Lindbergh, and writer/journalist H. L. Mencken. Mencken supported Germany in WWI albeit quietly. Denial is a strong defense mechanism.

Tom
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part 2.

To recap, we’ve looked at the Aries Ingress of 1939 and the Cancer Ingress of 1939 and determined that there are sufficient repetitions in the Cancer Ingress chart to predict that war will break out before the Libra Ingress in 1939. Ordinarily this should be good enough. Our author, however, says we can do better. He does better, too, but he admits he did this after the fact. The previous work was done before the fact and publication refused. Now he’s gilding the lily.

From the Cancer Ingress of June 1939 we cast lunation charts, again for Paris, and we look for similarities with the previous chart or charts. With the help of a computer, this is pretty easy. It was not so easy in the 1940s. In order to cut to the chase, I”ll give it away. There was a lunation in Paris on Aug 15, 1939 that, like the two ingress charts had Leo rising and Aries on the MC. Pieroz says:


Quote:
Precisely also, the lunation of 14 August (Not sure how he gets this, my computer calculation puts it at 5:53:13 AM CED, Paris France, on August 15, 1939. The full Moon occurs at 25 Leo. One time the date is given as August 15. I think there are either typos in the original, or the translation) presents the same characteristics: ASC in Leo, Mars in the 6th, ruler of the MC; Saturn in the 10th ruler of the 7th.


This is our chart. I’m assuming no other chart between the Cancer and Libra Ingress duplicates the things we saw in the Aries and Cancer Ingresses. Therefore the war will begin after August 15 1939 and before September 21, 1939.

He’s not done. From this point Morin tells us in Section I, Aphorism 3, Chapter 12 of Book 25 (page 91 of the Holden translation AFA). Words in italics re Morin's. Everything else in the quote is Heiroz.


Quote:
1. By directions. We read there in effect: They (the effects) are produced by the fact of the directions of the luminaries or of the angles, especially of the ASC, towards some congruent promittors, as well as towards some of the rulers of the universal chart.

In the course of the lunation from the 15th of August to the 13th of September we were able to calculate three directions of this kind.


Interlude. Morin gives a table of directions in chapter 12 for directing a lunation (page 94). I am forced to admit, I am not yet sure how Heiroz obtained two of the three that follow, but I’m sure I’ll figure it out someday. So we’ll take his word for it. He is directing the lunation chart, or he says he is. The directions marked with an asterisk (*) are the ones I can’t figure out:

Quote:
MC square Mars on 11 September
Sun opposite Saturn about the 3rd September*
Moon opposite Saturn about 8th of September*

2. By Transits. We read further in the same aphorism: the effects are born … when the luminaries apply by body or by aspect t the rulers of the charts; and we know on the other hand (Chapter IX Section 1) that in the syzygies, the swiftest planet is the only one to be examined; we must then, in the lunation of the 14th of August take note of the transits of the Moon to Mars and Saturn. We find:

Moon conjunct Mars on 26 August at 10:04
Moon conjunct Saturn on 3 September at 12:33

We state definitely that a unique date calls itself to our attention at the same time by directions and by transits. The date is:

The THIRD OF SEPTEMBER 1939

It is then very probable that it is on this day the inauspicious effects of this deplorable Ingress of 21 March 1939 will manifest themselves.


And so it proved or it was two days late. The German Army invaded Poland on September 1, 1939. Not bad though considering the majority of astrologers said there would be no war at all.

As I said I am unclear as to how he directed the Sun and Moon opposite Saturn. I’ll have to work on that. I do see how he directed the MC to the square of Mars, however. I verified the transits with an ephemeris.

I don’t know that all mundane predictions can be made with this kind of accuracy using Morin’s techniques. I rather doubt it. Personally I would have been satisfied with getting it between ingresses and more than satisfied by narrowing it down further with a lunation. But it would be fun to keep working and trying to nail things down with even more precision.

I think most importantly this exercise makes a good case for sticking with the Aries Ingress as a valid predictive tool. Not only because it proved itself in this case, but because it proved itself when many other astrologers failed, and it proved itself with instructions written 300 years before the events. I find that to be impressive. It tests Carter’s notion that Aries Ingress charts are useless, and Campion’s observation that the planets are in the same places for every country, and therefore the chart has little value. While the fact that the planets are the same everywhere is undoubtedly true, it might also be irrelevant. I wonder if Mr. Campion is overly concerned about the aspects more than the placements. Modern astrologers place a great deal more emphasis on aspects than traditionalists. It wouldn’t matter to a traditionalist that Mars is square Saturn in every nation’s chart because that aspect is less important than the house placement of the planet. It also seems odd that every nation would require a unique chart in order to predict events. This seems only to add to the complexity of an already complex subject. England and France are close to each other and the ingress charts would be similar. But in this case, their fates were closely intertwined as well. The same is true for Italy and Germany. I’m not sure I see the advantage of working with four unique charts for one World War.

This exercise will not settle the question, nor was it intended to do that. It was intended simply to create an interest in an old technique that still holds up pretty well.

Tom
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mattG



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Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not up to Book XXV yet but I do have Māshā’Allāh on Revolutions so I will try to keep up at the back.

The rapid fall of France was remarkable. Our lot were not much help either. We did not commit enough air power.

Plus ça change
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have Part Two of Mash'Allah. I have yet to read it. I skimmed through it for purposes of this article and found that its major emphasis is on time lords. I didn't find anything relevant to this article.

For the study basic of Morin from scratch I recommend the following:

1) Book 21 of Astrologia Gallica. You can get a lot out of this with an open mind and paying attention, but it would be better to study it with someone who is familiar with Morin. He expects readers to be familiar with the previous 20 books. They aren't book length - more like long chapters.

2) Book 23 on Revolutions. What he does with revolutions he does with Ingress charts. This explores the methods in depth. This is a very instructive astrology book, but the more the reader understands Morin's methods and terminology, the more you will get out of this work.

3) You could go right to Book 25 from here, but I recommend that a student at least become familiar with primary directions first. Better is to go to Book 22 on Directions and then to Book 25. It's true that he follows the logical path and takes on directions before returns, but taking directions first could bog down the student, especially if he has no background in the subject.

James Holden has translated books 13 - 17, 19 - 23, 25 and 26 is due out soon. Richard Baldwin translated Book 21 and Tony Louis translated book 18. All are available from AFA or other bookstores.

Tom
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Olivia



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Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Tom, this stuff is absolutely fascinating and I don't have a great background in mundane. A little Abu Ma'shar and a few others, though, thankfully - but not near enough.

At some point I'd like to read some of Morin. Meanwhile I've been tracking stuff since our last corrupt election wondering if things will blow sky-high before the Olympics.

Kind of hoping they will as thousands of people have died, and tens of thousands made homeless to bring these circuses to us in summer 2010, but I don't know. Been doing the ingresses, eclipses, and lunations. We shall see.

Again, thank you for your mini-tutorial! It'll be some months before I can buy books again - I really appreciate it.
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cor scorpii



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Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might be of interest to look at the charts of Aries/Cancer Ingresses for N. Korea, as well as a chart of the solar eclipse that happened a week ago.
I've been interested in this region of the world for quite some time now, especially since they've tested their second nuclear weapon and tactical missiles,also provoking the the US and its allies by their bellicose rhetoric and threats.

Simply, I am bothered with the prospect of war that might start with the attack on S. Korea; I worry much more, though,that the nuclear weapons will be used - that could bring us on the brink of the WW III...and if someone is crazy(and determined) enough to launch nuclear attack on another country, that would definitely be N. Korea(according to some military analysts).

Now, let's see what do we have here, first the Aries Ingress chart

20.3.2009., 20:44 LMT
Pjongjang
ASC 24 Libra 02' MC 27 cancer 48'

Cancer Ingress chart

21.6.2009., 14:46 LMT
Pjongjang
ASC 25 Libra 34' MC 29 Cancer 39'

Solar eclipse chart

22.7.2009., 11:35 LMT
Pjongjang
ASC 11 Libra 41 MC 13 Cancer 20'

It is highly interesting(and important) that in these three charts, the angles are posited in the same signs; the charts of Aries/Cancer ingress differ only slightly as far as the degrees of the ASC and MC are concerned.
I'll try to provide more in depth analysis of the charts in another post.
Hope you're still around, Tom(and others, of course Very Happy ). Let us try to see if there will be some kind of conflict on Korean peninsula in the near future(up to Libra ingress).


Last edited by cor scorpii on Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still around and God willing I'll be a round a while longer. This stuff looks interesting and I'll try to get to it soon, and invite others to do the same.

Tom
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Eddy



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Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the explanations Tom,

Quote:
Yes. Morin does not spend as much time on these as he acknowledged that accurately casting a chart for such a conjunction was nearly impossible in his day. I wonder if we are that much better at it today.
Kepler also mentioned the Jupiter Saturn conjunction cycle. His Rudolfine tables were very exact for the inner planets and Mars. Edmund Halley however discovered that there were deviations for Jupiter and Saturn. This lead to the theories of Newton on gravity. Today the astronomy is so good that these positions can almost perfectly be predicted. They seem worth astrological research.

Quote:
In nativities let us propose a chart that has 15 Taurus rising and 20 Aquarius on the MC. Every once in a while, the solar return will have the ASC in Taurus and the MC in Aquarius. Not always both at the same time, but that can happen, too. In those years, when Taurus is on the ASC and/or Aquarius is on the MC, those charts are considered particularly powerful. The closer the degrees in the revolution match the degree of the nativity, the more powerful it is.
In that case the age of 33 is an interesting year because (when takenfor the same place of birth) the angles will be close conjunct to the natal ones)

Quote:
The Great Depression did not end in the 1930s. Recent intelligent scrutiny has shown that WWII didn't end it either. In the US, the stock market crash of 1937 was in many ways worse than the crash in 1929. The American Gross National Product (as it was called in those days. It is the Gross Domestic Product today or GDP) didn't hit its pre 1929 levels until 1955; 10 years after the war ended.
Interesting, so it continued like a smouldering fire. Some economics believe that today's crisis will also require a very long time to recover.

Quote:
Let us try to see if there will be some kind of conflict on Korean peninsula in the near future(up to Libra ingress).

With the last week's solar eclipse in 29°26' Cancer the MC's of these ingress charts look very interesting.
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cor scorpii



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Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What stands out in the Aries Ingress:

- the ruler of the primordial point(DESC in Aries, the house traditionally associated with war) is Mars in his triplicity, posited in the water sign of Pisces in the 5th(by division) but in the 6th sign. Mars is conjunct royal fixed star Fomalhaut which may signify "malevolence and disasters of sublime character and scope". Mars is in antiscia relationship with the degree of ASC. However, there's no malefic planet on the DESC itself and the only planet on an angle(by division) is Jupiter in Aquarius, which is actually good and desirable, but he is peregrine and out of sect; therefore I think that Mars is more dominant(I may be wrong, of course). The position of Mars in Pisces may presage accidents/incidents connected with sea which afflict the entire nation, provoking response from enemies(antiscion to the ASC and simultaneously, contraantiscion with the DESC).

The ruler of the ASC degree, Venus, is severely debilitated - retrograde, in detriment, heading into combustion, cadent, in antiscion with Saturn from the 12th sign, not beheld by her dispositor Mars...she is dignified by term, but that is pretty weak. For the entire nation, this means trouble.

Cancer Ingress as already stated, holds almost the same degrees at the angles. Now, Mars is in Taurus in a day chart, out of sect in the 7th by division and in the 8th sign(neither is good), oriental and in conjunction with Venus, trine Saturn from the 12th sign...Venus is essentially very strong, but she rules the 8th house(along with ASC), therefore I wonder if she can bring anything good into the bargain here - I don't think so. The rulers of the ASC and DESC in conjunction in the 8th sign...looks ominous, especially if we consider that the Moon this time is in conjunction with the warlike,royal Aldebaran in the 8th(by division) and Mercury, which rules the 9th and the 12(by sign). Foreign relations and secret enemies issues come together with the ruler of the people in the house of death...

Now, the solar eclipse horoscope repeats the angles again - this time the Venus of the Aries Ingress is exactly on the degree of DESC of the eclipse chart. The eclipse itself sits exactly on the MC of the cancer Ingress, as Eddy pointed out, which means that in this quarter of the year there'll probably come a great alteration in the government of the N. Korea. Kim Yong Ill is really ill Laughing these days(according to the available information) and he has already named a successor. I think he will die by the time of Libra Ingress, but that's just a guess; the eclipse of the Sun in the 10th was always a bad sign for the ruler of the country.

The rulers of the eclipse are Saturn(almuten of the preceding angle of the ASC) and Jupiter, the exaltation ruler of the eclipse in Cancer; Saturn is in the 12th, Jupiter is retrograde in the 5th(8th from the 10th - the death of the ruler) in Aquarius.
Let's get back to Mars...he's in the 9th this time, conjunct Aldebaran and ME/MO conjunction from the previous cancer Ingress.
Interestingly, in these three charts Venus is always in some kind of relatiosnhip with Saturn; this time it is a closely applying square. I think this aptly describes(among other things) the poverty and want of the people of N. Korea.

I also checked the coming lunations to see if there will be one that has the same angles as these three charts...and there is one, which will hapen on the 6.8. 2009.
This time, Venus is on MC; Mars is in the place of Venus(in the 9th) from eclipse chart, applying to Saturn by square. The Moon, after its separation from the Sun, applies to Mars by trine...

I don't really think that there'll be war in the coming months, but perhaps just minor incidents/skirmishes in the field of diplomacy(the 9th),additional testing of missiles, the kinds we've seen so far...but of course, I may be wrong. Confused For the WW III to happen, I'd expect the charts to be much more ominous than these(if we compare them with the charts that presaged WW II).

What do you think?
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice. This is what I believe Morin is teaching.

Quote:
I also checked the coming lunations to see if there will be one that has the same angles as these three charts...and there is one, which will happen on the 6.8. 2009.


Interesting. Obama's birthday is Aug 4. N. Korea has launched missiles on or near significant US Holidays: Memorial Day in May and Independence Day in July. Following this date would be Labor Day September 7 this year.

Quote:
For the WW III to happen, I'd expect the charts to be much more ominous than these(if we compare them with the charts that presaged WW II).


I agree, but we would have to cast the same charts for the likely combatants. WWI is the best example of an historical chain reaction, but WWII wasn't far behind in that area. Something similar could happen here. Japan is key in that regard. I'm not sure of the status of Japan's military and what American obligations are to Japan in view of the surrender in 1945. Is any of that still in effect? If Japan is attacked even accidentally it could well draw in the US and then the chain reaction begins. There is more to this than N. Korean bluster. Might want to look at Hawaii, too.

Nice job.

Tom
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Eddy



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Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a look at the angles at Tokyo of the 22 july eclipse.
MC 26°23' Cancer (with Sun, Moon and Mercury close to MC in house X).
Asc. 23°31' Libra.

Japan is often quite involved in North Korean matters. Several times N-Korea shot a test missile (without explosive substances) over marine territory of Japan. According to Ptolemy Tetrabiblos II.6 rule for the effect of an eclipse, the effect of it will last 3.5 years. In ca. 3 years Saturn will be square to the eclipse point and conjunct and square Japan's Asc. respectively MC of the eclipse chart. However the effect of this year's ingresses will have gone I assume. Is in general some prolonged effect of an ingress / solar return possible, overlapping the next one? Or is the 'old' one immediately superceded by the new (Aries) ingress / solar return?

As Mars is going to transit the eclipse point, N-Korea's ingress MC's and Japan's eclipse moment MC in mid October, it would be interesting to observe the political situation of these countries in that month.
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