skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Sabian Symbols...Real or Rubbish?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Gem



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 954

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: Interesting ideas so far, folks.. Reply with quote

Sunny Dawn wrote:
I think its okay to accept revealed truth as a useful framework every once in a while. .

Yes it's absolutely OK, I woudln't criticise you for doing that, but for me, I wouldn't accept anything as 'revealed truth' unless it comes from a reliable source, such as from Enlightend beings, backed up by genuine spiritual teachings, and definitely not from anyone who claims to have merely psychic abilities. I would first understand and test the teachings.

Quote:
Certainly 1.1 billion Muslims do it with a revelation that came only once around 1300 years ago, and they're not asking how many psychics can come up with the Sura on the Cow

I don't konw anything about Islam, but this sounds disrespectful to Muslims becuase the revelation didn't come from any 'ordinary' psychic.


Last edited by Gem on Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:31 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sunny Dawn



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 144
Location: Brunswick, MD

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gem,

In no way do I intend disrespect for Islam. What I am saying is that Elsie Wheeler's trance relevation may be as relevant for her believers as Mohammed's was for his, even though her influence on world culture was in no way equivalent. Modern Muslims will point out how the Prophet revealed modern DNA. 1300 years from now the Sabian Symbols may prove just as useful - who knows?

But I like that cute little turn of thought of yours.
_________________
All I know is that if my birth chart was a horary, the answer would be "No".

My Blog: http://slushpileastrology.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gem



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 954

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very sweet of you Sunny Dawn Smile I know you didn't intend disrespect for Islam; I just wanted to point out that being psychic doesn't necessarily mean the person is spiritually evolved.

Quote:
the Sabian Symbols may prove just as useful - who knows?

Exactly. I respect those who have faith in them and offer my belated apologies to you Sunny Dawn, for calling them rubbish Smile


Last edited by Gem on Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:31 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sunny Dawn wrote:
Gem,

In no way do I intend disrespect for Islam. What I am saying is that Elsie Wheeler's trance relevation may be as relevant for her believers as Mohammed's was for his, even though her influence on world culture was in no way equivalent. Modern Muslims will point out how the Prophet revealed modern DNA. 1300 years from now the Sabian Symbols may prove just as useful - who knows?

But I like that cute little turn of thought of yours.


Let me preface this by saying that I don't have an issue with using symbology to derive deeper meanings for things. In fact I do an Afro/Cuban style of divination with shells in which each sign is basically a myth (or series of myths) that one is supposed to decode for meaning - although by now each sign also has some inherent meanings as well.

I don't think astrology is the best for this kind of thing. What attracted me to traditional astrology is that it is very technique-based. Modern metaphysics exaggerates the importance of intuition to the extent that if one uses a technique-based system (like traditional astrology), then they are thought to be missing "larger truths" whatever that means. In fact I have a psychic friend and we have fun arguments about this all the time.

Traditional astrology is capable (in experienced hands) of coaxing more detail than modern astrology without using outer planets, astrology, abstract symbols, or anything else of that nature. If you understand the meanings and significations of signs, planets, houses, and fixed stars, you can usually pull out what you need.

I have Angelus' book and it is very good. The symbols for decans were often used for making talismans. The Picatrix has this list as well (the decans not the degree images) as well as images for the Lunar Mansions. I suspect that one of the uses for the degree symbols were also used for making talismans. Chris Warnock talks about making personalized talismans based on the degree of the ascendant.

The irony is that the Sabian Symbols' namesake, the Sabaeans of Harran, were very influential in medieval astrology and had nothing to do with psychic channeling.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andrew



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 360

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't konw anything about Islum, but this sounds disrespectful ... I know you didn't intend disrespect for Islum ...


Not all beliefs are equally worthy of merit: one may critique one or more tenets of a particular belief system without intending any disrespect toward the religion itself. However, for the record, it is spelled ISLAM, not ISLUM. To repeatedly misspell the name of a religion might be interpreted as a form of disrespect toward it. One can disagree with the religious beliefs of Muslims without ridiculing the religion.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Gem



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 954

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I apologise for having mispelled the name in English (have corrected them).

PS I know 'apologise' is spelled 'apologize' in the USA
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Julie K



Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 378
Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:34 am    Post subject: Sabian Symbols Reply with quote

Sunny Dawn,

So much to comment on here with the Sabians. I was a skeptic - err well No, I just didnt 'get the Sabians' at all. That was until I went to our local Astro Group Meeting and Lynda Hill was speaking on them. She handed out her book on the Sabians to all there and began to speak. After about 10 minutes I was hooked and the book I believed I didnt ever want I had to have! Lynda is a very convincing speaker indeed!

As we walked across the road a Police Van was outside the Meeting Place and the Police Officers were in the process of putting two offenders into the Paddy Waggon' as we say and locking them up!

The first question Lynda was asked was about the degree 18 Libra! She could speak up without any reference to her book!

'Two Men Placed Under Arrest Give an Accounting for Their Acts Before The Tribunal of Society'. Quite uncanny but it's true.

Another thing is: Elsie Wheeler was taken to a park in San Deigo and Dane Rudyah was her 'wheeler'- Elsie was in a wheel chair!

Something else: The Egyptians knew from the 400s the Earth was not flat and they had sailed their ships down to Madgascar - Latitude 27S - they knew of the Polarities, But if you lived in Europe you had to wait till the 1600s to have this knowledge!

Julie K
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1367
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mithra6 wrote:



I have Angelus' book and it is very good. The symbols for decans were often used for making talismans. The Picatrix has this list as well (the decans not the degree images) as well as images for the Lunar Mansions. I suspect that one of the uses for the degree symbols were also used for making talismans. Chris Warnock talks about making personalized talismans based on the degree of the ascendant.



Angelus degrees work because they depend on stars rising with signs, and the same Picatrix ones.
No spirits, entities, masters at all. Just (Arab) astrology .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Finland

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gjiada wrote:

Angelus degrees work because they depend on stars rising with signs, and the same Picatrix ones.
No spirits, entities, masters at all. Just (Arab) astrology .

But shouldn't they be used sidereally then? Those rising stars have changed tropically since the days of Picatrix (or Arabs).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Papretis wrote:
Gjiada wrote:

Angelus degrees work because they depend on stars rising with signs, and the same Picatrix ones.
No spirits, entities, masters at all. Just (Arab) astrology .

But shouldn't they be used sidereally then? Those rising stars have changed tropically since the days of Picatrix (or Arabs).


I'm not sure how literal that is as far as stars rising with signs. The Picatrix is only about a 1000 years old, and even when that was written, the stars were out of whack with the signs anyway. I think the logic is based partially on the stars rising with the signs, but I also suspect it has something to do with various kinds of dignity such as bounds. I haven't compared it too closely yet. One thing though, the degree delineations follow the character of the sign generally, so each sign will have a theme. I'd imagine the degrees falling in the bound of a malefic will be different than a degree falling in the bound of a benefic. I'm guessing though.

As far as the decans, and for that matter Lunar Mansions, I think there is something else happening. The uses seem to be primarily for magic. I can't think of another use for a decan or mansion image.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1367
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mithra6 wrote:

I'm not sure how literal that is as far as stars rising with signs. The Picatrix is only about a 1000 years old, and even when that was written, the stars were out of whack with the signs anyway. I think the logic is based partially on the stars rising with the signs, but I also suspect it has something to do with various kinds of dignity such as bounds. I haven't compared it too closely yet. One thing though, the degree.


Abano degrees - edited by Angelus, come from Albumasar liber VI of Great introduction of Astrology about stars rising with signs. Abano knew it because he translated Beginning of wisdom, where IbnEzra quotes (copies?) Albumasar.
And one of the books in the library of Pietro Abano was Picatrix.

So their meaning coming from fixed stars rising with zodiacal signs, they could be used in order to rectify Ascendant in a birth chart.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4960
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Degree influences seem to be coming from three basic sources.

Firstly, those attributed purely to psychic revelation in communication with spirits-Charubel and Sabian Symbols are clear modern examples. Certain aspects of medieval astrological magic could be compared here with the attempt to communicate with Angels. Its well known that John Dee used the medium Kelly who claimed to divine spirit messages through a crystal ball. Although as far as I am aware Dee never linked this into his astrology. Picatrix presents the Arabic lunar mansions but also inspired a lot of later astrological magic. Even William Lilly seems to have tried spirit communication out although he later dispensed with it and never brought this into his astrological practice as far as I am aware. Going back to hellenistic times astologers such as Vettius Valens ascribed their astrological practice to the support of their personal Daemons or guardian spirit. So there is undeniably a legacy for astrologers seeking the support of spiritual helpers, Angels or Good Daemons. Going back to Sabian symbols though there appears no attempt to express such psychic aid in astrological language. Older sources seemed to represent such inspiration by referring to planetary or fixed star symbolism supporting such degree meanings.

Secondly, linked to fixed stars-We see this in Liber Hermetis and earlier Hellenistic texts. As Papretis suggests those sidereal positions will have changed substantially in relation to the tropical zodiac. By the time this is transmitted to the european astrologers there seems to be considerable confusion over actual star positions. Ben Dykes comments in his translation of Bonatti for example that several of the fixed star points listed by Bonatti are not known today. This could be either due to bad astronomy, corrupted translations or Bonatti using these 'stars' as symbolic points liked to some magical/hermetic tradition lost to us. Certainly, we find the 15 behenian or hermetic fixed stars influencing medieval astrological magic.

Thirdly, we can link degree points to planets. Although planetary rulership of dignities such as triplicity, bound and decan is most commonly expressed there was planetary rulership in hellenistic times assigned to the dodekamoria , and the less well understood monomoria which involved each degree point being assigned a planetary ruler. Were these rulerships assigned through a rational system or psychic inspiration?


Last edited by Mark on Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:58 pm; edited 4 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Yossarian
Guest





Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Sabian Symbols Reply with quote

Julie K wrote:
The first question Lynda was asked was about the degree 18 Libra! She could speak up without any reference to her book!

'Two Men Placed Under Arrest Give an Accounting for Their Acts Before The Tribunal of Society'. Quite uncanny but it's true.


No, it isn't true. Wheeler originally "channeled" (snicker) "Two Men Placed Under Arrest" as 19 Libra.

About 6 years later it was changed from 19 Libra to 18 Libra because someone thought it was a mistake (that's what it says on Lynda's own web-site).

Then after many more years, "'Two Men Placed Under Arrest" was altered a 2nd time to add "Give an Accounting for Their Acts Before The Tribunal of Society."

I don't find the meanings to be descriptive or even remotely accurate and worse, their quite subjective and open to any interpretation imaginable.
Back to top
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1367
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:

Secondly, linked to fixed stars-We see this in Liber Hermetis and earlier Hellenistic texts. As Papretis suggests those sidereal positions will have changed substantially in relation to the tropical zodiac. By the time this is transmitted to the european astrologers there seems to be considerable confusion over actual star positions. Ben Dykes comments in his translation of Bonatti for example that several of the fixed star points listed by Bonatti are not known today. This could be either due to bad astronomy, corrupted translations or Bonatti using these 'stars' as symbolic points liked to some magical/hermetic tradition lost to us. Certainly, we find the 15 behenian or hermetic fixed stars influencing medieval astrological magic.


Beibenia means just "fixed" : they are the 15 brilliant stars mentioned in Almagest by Ptolemy (let alone Canopus which was not visible anymore) and others of second magnitude, but with a special influence (the complete list should be around 30 stars, it depends on catalogues).

MarkC wrote:
Thirdly, we can link degree points to planets. Although planetary rulership of dignities such as triplicity, bound and decan is most commonly expressed there was planetary rulership in hellenistic times assigned to the dodekamoria , and the less well understood monomoria which involved each degree point being assigned a planetary ruler. Were these rulerships assigned through a rational system or psychic inspiration?


Not the ones from Abano/Engels. Moreover in Abano version, there are no decans at all at the beginning of every sign, just degrees, they were added by Engels.
Anyway here it's impossible to give the whole list of degrees associated with the different constellations, but check for example Boll's Sphaera.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4960
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Beibenia means just "fixed" : they are the 15 brilliant stars mentioned in Almagest by Ptolemy (let alone Canopus which was not visible anymore) and others of second magnitude, but with a special influence (the complete list should be around 30 stars, it depends on catalogues).


Certainly Anonymous of 379 refers to these 30 bright stars although they differ slightly from the 30 referred to by Ptolemy in his Phases of the Fixed Stars.

However, your missing my point somewhat. By the medieval period astrological magic as presented by figures like Cornelius Agrippa was only using these 15 fixed stars in magical practice and as seals/talismans. I was simply making the link between fixed stars, and astrological magic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behenian_fixed_stars

Quote:
Not the ones from Abano/Engels. Moreover in Abano version, there are no decans at all at the beginning of every sign, just degrees, they were added by Engels.


I know next to nothing about this. It sounds intriguing. Do we know the source of this? Was this a psychic derived system or was it supported by any astrological logic? Has this been translated into English?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated