skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Sabian Symbols...Real or Rubbish?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1358
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="MarkC"]
Quote:

I know next to nothing about this. It sounds intriguing. Do we know the source of this? Was this a psychic derived system or was it supported by any astrological logic? Has this been translated into English?


1) An Italian resercher found a copy of Abano manuscript in Munchen, so she could compare with Engels edition.
2) Which psychic system? Just Ptolemy Almagest.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4924
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Gjiada,

Quote:
1) An Italian resercher found a copy of Abano manuscript in Munchen, so she could compare with Engels edition.
2) Which psychic system? Just Ptolemy Almagest
.

I have heard of Peter Albano but know next to nothing about his astrology. Could you say a little more about Peter Albano's ideas on degree influence and the Engels edition you refer to?

I am living in the land of the ignorant on all this. I suspect I am not alone here.

Mark
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Julie K



Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 378
Location: Australia

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:39 pm    Post subject: Sabian Symbols Reply with quote

yossarian,

Just checking - both Lynda Hill and Dane Rudyar offer these words for the Sabian Symbol for 18 degrees Libra.

The Sabian Symbols are just that - 'symbolic'. Our perceptions are drawn from our life experiences, Cultural background, family, communtiy we live in etc. We are in our own individual 'bag of skin' - no two of us identical!

Julie K
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1358
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:

Could you say a little more about Peter Albano's ideas on degree influence and the Engels edition you refer to?
Mark


Johannes Angelus (Engel) published Astrolabium Planum in Augsburg in 1488. Angelus said that he took the description of 360 degrees from Pietro Abano, but this medieval work was lost till Professoressa Federici Vescovini found a copy in Munchen Bayerischen Staatsbibliothek, and she could compare Engel's Renaissance version with Abano's one.

Abano was the translator of IbnEzra Book of Wisdom, so surely the Italian astrologer knew Albumasar decans ( IbnEzra copied Albumasar almost word by word) and he knew Picatrix, a latin version of an Arab book of magic and astrology, which has a chapter with a similar list of decans.

We know how Albumasar wrote his list, Franz Boll in 1903 explained it in details in his book Sphaera, in a few words Albumasar just considered constellations rising with 12 signs (it's a little more complicated but it would be quite long explaing details, I hope soon in a proper place).
Then we could compare Albumasar list with Abano/Engel one and we will find that images of the latter depend on the influence of constellations. Sometimes it's very easy and sometimes it's not so obviously because many star catalogues unfortunately are lost to us.

Images of Astrolabium Plamum are frescoed in Padua in medieval Palazzo della Ragione. Here too some scholars played to find the right correspondance between the book and the frescoes.
This is a sample:

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Yossarian
Guest





Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:20 am    Post subject: Re: Sabian Symbols Reply with quote

Julie K wrote:
yossarian,

Just checking - both Lynda Hill and Dane Rudyar offer these words for the Sabian Symbol for 18 degrees Libra.

The Sabian Symbols are just that - 'symbolic'. Our perceptions are drawn from our life experiences, Cultural background, family, communtiy we live in etc. We are in our own individual 'bag of skin' - no two of us identical!

Julie K


Like I said, it's purely subjective and those who are into new-age-pop-feel-good-psycho-babble astrology will probably enjoy Sabian Symbols stupendously, especially since it allows weaker astrologers who don't want to spend the time to learn craft to babble on as though they might actually know something.
Back to top
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4924
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Gjiada,

Thanks very much. Thats all extremely interesting.

Quote:
We know how Albumasar wrote his list, Franz Boll in 1903 explained it in details in his book Sphaera, in a few words Albumasar just considered constellations rising with 12 signs (it's a little more complicated but it would be quite long explaing details, I hope soon in a proper place).


Fixed stars is a particular interest of mine so I find this intriguing. I have read Ibn Ezra but not the other sources you refer to. The original concept of decans used by the Ancient Egyptian was based on the rising fixed stars rather than planets or signs. This therefore seems an interesting return to something paralleling ancient practice.

I assume Federici Vescovini published her findings on Peter Albano's 360 degree meanings in Italian and German? As I study more my biggest regret is my lack of command of Latin or other modern languages.


Quote:
Images of Astrolabium Plamum are frescoed in Padua in medieval Palazzo della Ragione. Here too some scholars played to find the right correspondance between the book and the frescoes.


Thanks for the lovely illustration! I seem to remember hearing a short paper on this at a conference. Its been subject to considerable academic debate I believe?

I suspect all this material would be very welcome on the traditional forum here. I for one at least would love to find out more on all this. Any chance you could share some of this there at some stage?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yossarian wrote:

Quote:
Like I said, it's purely subjective


As is your analysis of what follows

Quote:
and those who are into new-age-pop-feel-good-psycho-babble astrology will probably enjoy Sabian Symbols stupendously, especially since it allows weaker astrologers who don't want to spend the time to learn craft to babble on as though they might actually know something.


There have been some really interesting and informative comments made in this thread. This, unfortunately, is not one of them. You have already made us aware of your opinion, so unless you have some new information to add, you shouldn't keep restating your view in such a derogatory manner.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4924
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yossarian wrote:

Quote:
Like I said, it's purely subjective and those who are into new-age-pop-feel-good-psycho-babble astrology will probably enjoy Sabian Symbols stupendously, especially since it allows weaker astrologers who don't want to spend the time to learn craft to babble on as though they might actually know something.


As I have made clear already I am not an enthusiast of Sabian symbols. Having stated that I think we need to detach our discussion of that from judgementalism about those using this technique. To conclude that others are 'weaker astrologers' just because they use a technique we disapprove of is a very slippery path in my view. I would rather keep this discussion based on astrological technique and avoid sweeping judgements about astrologers we have never met.

Underlying this discussion there appears to be a deeper philosophical issue. Is there such a thing as an objective astrological truth or must we accept truth as necessarily subjective and plural? The danger of the former approach is that we become narrow minded astro-fundamentalists arguing our interpretation is the only valid one. I confess some traditionalists stray a little close to this kind of line sometimes. The logic of the latter view is an a la carte pluralism where anything goes and every technique is equally valid. So is this debate any different from whether we prefer Pizza or Curry? Despite my line on Sabian symbols I tend to accept this latter view. This makes the discussion similar to a supermarket shopper deciding what to put in their astro basket rather than a battle between truth and falsehood. In practice thats the way most astrologers tend to operate. We select techniques and astrological schools that we resonate with and reject others we do not. Some of us are more consistent in our selections ie all medieval or Uranian while others are openly eclectic in what we work with.

Ultimately, then I have to acknowledge my dislike of Sabian symbols is really an issue of taste or preference. To go further than that seeks to invalidate others equally valid choices and experiences. I do think some astrological techniques are more powerful and precise than others. I do not find Sabian symbols compelling for this reason. However, again people vary in what they find compelling or powerful. This seems to leave astrology in the same territory as religion where most of agree tolerance of differing views is the best policy.

In fairness and to retain some consistency I am going to have to step back from my initial line on Sabian symbols being ''non-astrological'. I am sure a sociologist would tell us astrology is what astrologers do so on that basis Sabian symbols is astrology. Its just not the kind I rate that highly. I guess its the astrological equivalent of Brussel sprouts for me.
Sick.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1358
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:


The original concept of decans used by the Ancient Egyptian was based on the rising fixed stars rather than planets or signs. This therefore seems an interesting return to something paralleling ancient practice.


In fact for a part, Albumasar list comes from "sphaera barbarica", i.e. egyptian/babylonian constellations.

Quote:
I assume Federici Vescovini published her findings on Peter Albano's 360 degree meanings in Italian and German? As I study more my biggest regret is my lack of command of Latin or other modern languages.


- Pietro d’Abano e gli affreschi astrologici del Palazzo della Ragione di Padova, in Labyrinthos. Studi e ricerche sulle arti dal Medioevo al Barocco, 9 (1986), p. 50-75.

- Pietro d’Abano e l’astronomia-astrologia, in Bollettino del Centro Internazionale di Storia dello Spazio e del Tempo, 5 (1986), p. 30-44.

For me it's easier to read them, Italian is my mothertongue.

Quote:
Thanks for the lovely illustration! I seem to remember hearing a short paper on this at a conference. Its been subject to considerable academic debate I believe?


I'm not sure, and it was very difficult to me to have the complete set of pictures, so you were lucky to hear about them at a conference. Anyway Fritz Saxl mentioned Abano's work in the preface of one of his manuscripts' catalogue.

Quote:
I suspect all this material would be very welcome on the traditional forum here. I for one at least would love to find out more on all this. Any chance you could share some of this there at some stage?


I think so, as soon as possible.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4924
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gjiada wrote:

Quote:
In fact for a part, Albumasar list comes from "sphaera barbarica", i.e. egyptian/babylonian constellations.


For those interested in this area here is a well researched article on the use of non-greek constellations in hellenistic astrology ( i.e. sphaera barbarica' ) from the astronomer Garry Thompson's website:

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gtosiris/page11-14.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
SaturnReturn



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 100
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi everyone,

I don't know if Sabian Symbols are real or not but I thought the "phrases" for my stuff was nice.

ASC = The "Magic Carpet" Of Oriental Imagery (A whole new wooooooorld, a new fantastic point of vieeeeeeeeeeew...)

Sun/Jupiter = A Hen Scratching The Ground To Find Nourishment For Her Progeny (wtf? I guess that means taking care of my family. Thats cool.)

Moon = After The Wedding, The Groom Snatches The Veil Away From His Bride (Step right up ladies..)

Venus = Many Little Birds On A Limb Of A Big Tree (Is this the harem I've always wanted?)

Saturn = A Mermaid Emerges From The Ocean Waves Ready For Rebirth In Human Form (This could actually be telling....although I prefer to be called a merMAN.)

Mars = A Fine Lace Handkerchief, Heirloom From Valorous Ancestors
(Bravo! Maybe I do believe in these sabian symbol thingies) Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated