skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

The U.S.A. horoscope Scorpio rising rectified.

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Andries H. Cats



Joined: 01 Dec 2007
Posts: 92

Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:17 pm    Post subject: The U.S.A. horoscope Scorpio rising rectified. Reply with quote

The U.S.A. horoscope Scorpio rising rectified.
I canceled my rectified horoscope of the U.S.A. birthtime 2h17m a.m.
after I rectified the U.S.A. horoscope rectified by Marc H. Penfield: 2h20m p.m..
For the rectification I used the Dutch astrologer Gieles his minus 1 year progression system.
New rectified birthtime for the U.S.A.: 2h19m56s p.m. lmt; gmt: 19h20m35s.
Ascendant: 08.22.26 Scorpio; M.C. 15.52.03 Leo.
Progressive aspects:
7 june 1776 M.C. sextile radix Saturn; 4 july 1776 Mars conjunct radix Pars and Ascendant square radix Draconis; 15 november 1777 Draconis trine mutual Cusp 2.
I have more progressive aspects of this horoscope, which you can see on my website: www.andriescats.nl.
My conclusion: this rectified horoscope can only be the very veritable horoscope of the United States of America!

.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4963
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My conclusion: this rectified horoscope can only be the very veritable horoscope of the United States of America!


The problem I have here is that there are so many contenders for the title of the one and only valid chart for the 4th of July 1776. Lots of excellent astrologers have passionately argued why the USA chart has to have this time or that rising sign. The main contenders are Gemini, Sagittarius (Sibly), Virgo (Boehrer/Dobyns or Howland version) or Scorpio (Penfield). Of these the most popular seem to be the Sagittarius and Gemini rising charts. In addition a multitude of rectifications have been proposed to support these differing charts.

If all that isn't confusing enough there are those that argue that the 4th of July 1776 was not the key date anyway as the 2nd of July was when the the American colonies first described themselves as the United States of America and declared independence from Britain. There is therefore a chart for July 2nd (The Armistead chart). I am sure there is lots of scope for rectifications on this chart too.

Not to your taste? Never mind there is no shortage of available charts. Why wait until 1776? What about the date the Continental Congress actually declared war on Great Britain? After all that formally kicked off the whole process long before the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Sound interesting? If so the 6th of July chart for 1775 (Boyd chart) is for you.

This link provides the main contenders/times but this is not an exhaustive list.

http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/USA.htm

For a fuller objective discussion on the whole issue of charts for the founding of the USA I highly recommend 'The Book of World Horoscopes' by Nicholas Campion.

While it is fun to study the competing contenders for a 1776 or 1775 chart I suggest it might be wiser and a lot less confusing to start working with some USA charts with some kind of verifiable time behind them that link directly to modern American political institutions like the federal constitution of the USA and the Presidency.

In 1776 the 13 American colonies had not formed what we know as the modern USA. That didn't take shape until the creation of the constitution which laid out the institutions of Congress, President and Supreme Court as we understand today. The division of powers between executive , legislature , judiciary and state powers which defines modern American government only begin with the federal constitution. This is how mundane or national charts for the rest of the world are assessed. Why should the USA be different?

The Presidential chart for inauguration of George Washington and the Federal Constitution chart(s) are therefore strong runners. With these charts we have times and we can actually describe a recognisable government of the USA assuming power. On the Constitution one can go for dates/times based on its initial signing, ratification or de facto date/time in force.

The US 'Presidential chart'. ie the inauguration chart for the very first US President seems a key one to compare against the candidates for the forthcoming Presidential election. Its one of the very few accurately timed charts we have: April 30, 1789, New York, NY between 12:40 and 12:45 p.m. LMT. Source: Campion, "Book of World Horoscopes,"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
robin



Joined: 15 Aug 2007
Posts: 47

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andries,

I had a look at your site, but i found the layout almost unreadable.

Perhaps you might want to change the presentation if you want people to have a look.

robin
________
Isuzu motors polska


Last edited by robin on Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:58 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3483
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The division of powers between executive , legislature , judiciary and state powers which defines modern American government only begin with the federal constitution. This is how mundane or national charts for the rest of the world are assessed. Why should the USA be different?


Good point. The only answer I can come up with is that the Declaration of Independence stated to the world, although it was addressed to King George III, what the country stood for, and why it would no longer abide by traditional monarchy. What came afterward were attempts to incorporate those original ideas stated in the preamble. One system failed one worked for a while until the Civil War, and it had to be modified so those mistakes wouldn't happen again. That makes the July 4 date unique (I think) in world History. The Magna Carta didn't dump monarchy. It redefined it.

Still Mark's point is a good one.

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4963
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The only answer I can come up with is that the Declaration of Independence stated to the world, although it was addressed to King George III, what the country stood for, and why it would no longer abide by traditional monarchy. What came afterward were attempts to incorporate those original ideas stated in the preamble. One system failed one worked for a while until the Civil War, and it had to be modified so those mistakes wouldn't happen again. That makes the July 4 date unique (I think) in world History. The Magna Carta didn't dump monarchy. It redefined it.


It cannot be denied there were unique features to the Declaration of Independence. A positive , excellently crafted statement of republican nationship which was undeniably first on the world stage. However, it had clear historical antecedents too.

While people inevitably look to Magna Carta as the closest historical precedent for a Declaration of independence a better comparison probably comes from Scotland.

The Declaration of Arbroath in 1320 was a declaration of Scottish independence and sovereignty. It also established the principle that sovereignty rested with the people not the monarch.

To quote the document:

Quote:
for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom – for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Arbroath

The Scottish influence on the Declaration of Independence has been something academics have taken more interest in lately. Not just the Declaration of Arbroath itself but also the influence of Presbyterian educators in America in the 18th century. The tradition of the Covenanters who defied the King Charles on religious grounds also made insurrection against an unjust English King conceivable.

http://www.amazon.com/Scottish-Invention-America-Democracy-Rights/dp/0761827919

Nine of the framers of the Declaration of Independence were of Scots ancestry and many others had an educational background strongly influenced by Scots academics. These included Thomas Jefferson himself who was educated at William and Mary college Virginia where he came under the tuteledge of William Small, a Scottish professor of mathematics and natural philosophy who became Jefferson's prime awakener and inspirer. Jefferson once wrote that Small was "as a father" to him.

Of course I don't want to overemphasize this point. Jefferson will have been influenced by John Locke and Thomas Paine like many other late 18th century Americans. Still it shows that the Declaration of Independence didn't come out of a vacuum even if left its predecessors looking quite shabby in comparison.

Despite my enthusiasm for later charts like the Presidential or federal constitution dates/times I accept the 4th of July has an important symbolic role in American history.

I am not opposed to charts from 1776. I personally use the Sagittarius rising (Sibly) chart. Its just there are so many possible charts and times I don't forsee an astrological consensus on this any time soon. Some charts clearly have little or no historical basis ( especially the Gemini rising chart). However, the romantic school of astrology will prefer this over historical evidence. Other charts though can have equally logical cases made for them ie morning chart ( Virgo rising), Afternoon chart (Scorpio rising) or late afternoon (Sagittarius rising). IMHO The strongly religious nature of the USA, its positive optimistic outlook, and the American tendency to think and consume on a large scale all seem to be explained to me in part by a Sag rising chart. I therefore think its no accident that it was the USA that put the first man on the Moon. However, I understand and respect the fact that others will have equally convinced arguments for other charts/times for the 4th of July 1776.

In any case as Nicholas Campion states nations are not people. They don't have to have a single historically significant birth times. Although all mundane astrology operates on the basis that some dates/times will have a stronger resonance than others. Rather than proposing the 'one and only' chart I therefore favour exploring a variety of USA charts.

4th of July 1776 clearly has to be one of those as a seed moment. I would compare this to key dates in Irish history. First off we have the Easter Rising of 1916. This represents the aspiration of the Irish people for independence from Britain. However, there was no political settlement to support this aspiration yet. The 1922 chart represents the de facto separation from Great Britain as the Irish Free State. Finally the 1949 chart marks the birth of the Irish Republic and Ireland formally ending all political links to Great Britain through the British Empire or Commonwealth.

The history of America is rather like this except we have a multitude of candidate dates. Sadly, the exact timing for the Declaration of Independence remains controversial. Thats why I prefer to start off with charts like the Federal Constitution and Presidential chart which have clear times and represent the beginning of modern American politics as we know it. At least with these charts there is more hope of an astrological consensus.


Last edited by Mark on Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:51 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3483
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

Although I'm well aware of the influence of John Locke and Thomas Paine on Jefferson, everyone has antecedents, I do have to confess I've never heard of the influence of the Scottish Declaration of Arbroath on the American Declaration of Independence. This is fascinating stuff. Thanks for sharing.

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4963
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom,

I believe this is why many parts of North America have designated the 6th of April 'Tartan day'. Following Canada’s lead, the United States took up the issue of Tartan Day in the halls of the United States Senate in 1998. Senate Resolution 155 passed unanimously on March 20, 1998.

http://www.celticnetwork.com/culture/traditions/tartan-day.html

Ironically, its not a public holiday here in Scotland Sad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3483
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ironically, its not a public holiday here in Scotland


We did the same thing to the Irish, i.e. took their holiday. St. Patrick's Day celebrations in New York City are bigger than anything in Dublin, Ireland

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4963
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The U.S.A. horoscope Scorpio rising rectified.
I canceled my rectified horoscope of the U.S.A. birthtime 2h17m a.m.
after I rectified the U.S.A. horoscope rectified by Marc H. Penfield: 2h20m p.m..


I see Michael O'Reilly has produced a book entitled 'Political Astrology' . It works on a Scorpio rising chart similar to Marc Penfield's suggested Scorpio rising chart but rectifies the time marginally from 2.20pm to 2.21pm.

It has received a glowing review from Ray Merriman on Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/Political-Astrology-Michael-OReilly/dp/1595940243/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207693095&sr=8-1

Michael O'Reilly also puts his basic case for the Scorpio rising chart on his website:

http://politicalastrology.homestead.com/Main.html

Apparently, the book lays out the case for the Scorpio rising chart in considerable detail. I look forward to receiving my copy. However, there is always the problem of any work starting from a preconceived viewpoint and seeking evidence to support it. I think Nicholas Campion's discussion of all the 1776 charts from his Book of World horoscopes is essential initial reading in this area.

One argument made in favour of the Scorpio rising chart is the scorpionic image of the Bald Eagle chosen for the federal government of the USA. However, I think that tells us more about the much later federal government than the 'spirit of 1776'. Irrespective of which 1776 chart is chosen we have the option of a Scorpio rising chart for the Federal Government chart.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
One argument made in favour of the Scorpio rising chart is the scorpionic image of the Bald Eagle chosen for the federal government of the USA. However, I think that tells us more about the much later federal government than the 'spirit of 1776'. Irrespective of which 1776 chart is chosen we have the option of a Scorpio rising chart for the Federal Government chart.

Thank you, Mark! The Scorpio chart as the chart of the federal government makes sense to me. I never could see it as the nation as a whole.


On the web page that Mark linked to above, Michael O’Reilly writes:
Quote:
The most prominent national characteristics are symbolized by the Ascendant, so in a country known worldwide as the only remaining superpower, it makes sense that the United States should have Scorpio Rising, the sign directly associated with the eagle. ..... The Scorpio and Sagittarius Ascendants derive their historical legitimacy from several written accounts which indicate that John Hancock signed the document when it came out of committee during the afternoon of the fourth.

http://politicalastrology.homestead.com/Main.html

An image near the text contains a caption that reads, “The Eagle is a Scorpio symbol”. In contrast, Lilly lists the planet Jupiter for the eagle on page 64 of CA. However, in discussing Mars on page 68 Lilly writes: (with original parentheses) “(some say the Eagle)”. So the eagle could apply equally to two consecutive signs, Scorpio and Sagittarius, by way of Mars and Jupiter. The eagle could be the indication – a sign from the heavens? – that we are to use more than one chart. That gives us a long afternoon to work with. Perhaps indeed there are different charts for different moments of that afternoon. A Scorpio rising moment could apply to the federal government, a Sagittarius moment could apply to the character of the people and the nation as a whole. It would be interesting to find out as nearly as possible everything that happened that afternoon.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4963
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I better clarify what I mean by ''federal government chart''.

There are 3 potential times Nicholas Campion suggests for a federal constitution chart.

First is signing of the constitution:

17/09/1787 Philadelphia 4.00pm. Campion cites two historians for this time. However, there other times listed for this chart on the Astrodatabank discussion of this chart (oddly Campion isn't mentioned). Particularly, 11.29am although no explicit source is listed. This gives a chart with Sagittarius rising and a Sagittarius Moon. The 4.00pm time gives a chart with Aquarius rising and a Sagittarius Moon.

Second is the ratification by the necessary 2/3 of states.
This came about with the ratification of New Hampshire.
21/06/1788. Campion doesn't cite a time for this.

Thirdly, is when the federal constitution came into effect:
04/03/1789 Philadelphia 00.00 hours.
Possibly the only US chart we can be 100% sure of on timing. For once rectifications are redundant.

Congress met for the first time at 9.00am later that day. So a 'Congressional chart' could be timed for then.

At the moment I am giving more weight to what I call the ''USA Federal Government chart'' of 4/3/1789 with its precise timing.

The Federal Government chart has Scorpio rising (27 degrees) and a Gemini Moon. Mercury is retrograde which seems to be a strong argument against any notion this time was elected on astrological principles.

Another important point I have just noticed is that 20 years before adopting the constitution the Confederal government of the USA which ran from 1781-1789 was also strongly Scorpio in quality. David Solte has argued the Confederal goverment chart should be timed for when the 2nd Continental Congress adopted the Articles of Confederation and sent this to to the 13 states for their ratification. This chart has Sun, MC, Mercury and Saturn in Scorpio! Solte argues this is the effective chart for the USA although others have argued the ratification time is more important for a Confederal government chart.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_of_Confederation

In my opinion although this is undeniably the first government of the USA It needs to be acknowledged that this was an unsuccessful model of government in the US due to the inherent weakness of the confederal goverment constitution and its lack of any decisive authority over of the states. The lack of a USA wide military, executive, judiciary , fiscal policy or co-ordinated economy created overwhelming difficulties for this first attempt at a USA government. Modern American political institutions ie the Presidency, Congress, Supreme court, defined state powers and of course the constitution itself all date from the introduction of the federal government which comes nearly 20 years later. Still, if we accept Solte's chart just for the Confederal government era and use the Federal Government chart of 4/03/1789 it could be argued American government has always had a strong scorpio quality since it first came into existence.

This is from Astrodatabank:

Quote:
Source Notes: David Solte's Presentation of the U.S. chart, data given in San Diego Astrological Society "The Uranian," May 1993, time rectified. He used the minutes of the Continental Congress to narrow down the passage of the Articles of Confederation to a few hours between 11:00 am and 2:00 pm on Nov. 15, 1777, when they were meeting in York, PA. Solte then rectified the chart to 12:46 pm Local Mean Time for the date and time when the Articles of Confederation became effective. The Declaration of Independence had declared that America was a separate entity from Great Britain, but it was not until the Confederation was established that the U.S. became a group of states united under one government. Quite a few astrologers find that this chart works well for following the fortunes of the US government and the nation as a whole.


David Solte's chart is on display with others here:
http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/USA.htm#DavidSolte

Solte's rectified chart for the Confederal Government has the Sun at 22 Scorpio and the MC at 23 Scorpio which comes quite close to the ASC degree of the Federal Government for 04/03/1789.

Ron Grimes chart for the ratification of the Articles of Confederation is interesting too. It has Jupiter on the exact degree of the later federal government chart (27 Scorpio). Maybe that fulfills the joint Jupiter/Mars influences Kirk raised earlier here.

Its interesting that the Bald Eagle was first adopted by USA government from June 20th 1782 during the Confederal Government period. It become adopted as an official symbol of USA government in 1787.

http://www.baldeagleinfo.com/eagle/eagle9.html

Apparently the bald eagle was chosen as the emblem of the United States of America, because of its long life, great strength and majestic looks, and also because it was then believed to exist only on the North American continent. However, it was also perceived as a symbol of 'authority and power'. The eagle is traditionally a symbol of power and empires such as those of Ancient Rome, Napoleonic France, and the Unified Germany have all utilised it. Benjamin Franklin opposed the adoption of the this national symbol because he argued it had negative associations.

Quote:
''I wish that the bald eagle had not been chosen as the representative of our country, he is a bird of bad moral character, he does not get his living honestly, you may have seen him perched on some dead tree, where, too lazy to fish for himself, he watches the labor of the fishing-hawk, and when that diligent bird has at length taken a fish, and is bearing it to its nest for the support of his mate and young ones, the bald eagle pursues him and takes it from him.... Besides he is a rank coward; the little kingbird, not bigger than a sparrow attacks him boldly and drives him out of the district. He is therefore by no means a proper emblem for the brave and honest. . . of America.. . . For a truth, the turkey is in comparison a much more respectable bird, and withal a true original native of America . . . a bird of courage, and would not hesitate to attack a grenadier of the British guards, who should presume to invade his farmyard with a red coat on. ''Benjamin Franklin


One can only wonder how the history of the USA might have been different if the Contintental Congress had gone for Benjamin Franklin's suggestion of a Turkey as the national emblem! Smile

If you prefer a more patriotic, romantic explanation there is also a story which claims eagle was used as the national emblem because during one of the first battles of the Revolutionary War, the noise of the struggle early in the morning woke the eagles from their nests. They circled overhead. Many of the men fighting said that the shrieking sounded like the word freedom. I have no idea what the source for this legend is.

I think if we stick with signs rather than planets there is a much clearer link to the symbol of the eagle with Scorpio than Sagittarius. Medieval sources such as Ibn Ezra make the link between Scorpio and birds of prey quite explicit. Scorpio is often associated with the constellation 'Aquilla' the Eagle.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Yossarian
Guest





Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:00 am    Post subject: Re: The U.S.A. horoscope Scorpio rising rectified. Reply with quote

Andries H. Cats wrote:
My conclusion: this rectified horoscope can only be the very veritable horoscope of the United States of America!


The standard for rectification in mundane astrology is the same as personal astrology, which is at least 1 major significant event for each decade. It will take at least 24 major significant events for an acceptable rectification of the USA chart.

I really think astrologers need to get together and develop a standard for rectification for country natal charts. An accurate rectification for the US should include territorial acquisitions (Gadsden Purhcase, Alaska Purchase, Louisiana Purchase, Florida and annexation of Texas), all 4 assassinations, at least 6 military conflicts plus the Civil War, 9-11, the resignation of Nixon, the Supreme Court's ruling on Brown v Board of Education, Marbury v Madison, In Re Dred Scott, and Roe v Wade, plus constitutional amendments, and financial actions, like the creation of the Federal Reserve, and both departures from the gold standard (1933 and 1974).

Of course the real test of any chart is its predictive ability, and one that cannot clearly predict the outcome of the 2008 Election is not the correct natal chart.
Back to top
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4963
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I really think astrologers need to get together and develop a standard for rectification for country natal charts. An accurate rectification for the US should include territorial acquisitions (Gadsden Purhcase, Alaska Purchase, Louisiana Purchase, Florida and annexation of Texas), all 4 assassinations, at least 6 military conflicts plus the Civil War, 9-11, the resignation of Nixon, the Supreme Court's ruling on Brown v Board of Education, Marbury v Madison, In Re Dred Scott, and Roe v Wade, plus constitutional amendments, and financial actions, like the creation of the Federal Reserve, and both departures from the gold standard (1933 and 1974).



Thanks. A couple of useful additions to the list I am compiling there. Your right a lot of people forget important territorial expansions of the USA. The territory gained after the Mexican-American war for example which added much of the current western USA.

Too much focus on war , assaination or earthquakes can ignore the real positives. For example, Neil Armstrong walking on the Moon and the completion of the Union-Pacific Railway. I am not sure about an astrological consensus though. Astrologers generally have an unremarkable knowledge of history. On miltary conflicts I think you will need a lot more than 6. The US have been involved in 6 military conflicts since Vietnam alone.

The bigger problem is the different ways astrologers work. Just think of the differences around planetary rulerships, aspects, houses, outer planets alone. In predictive terms apart from transits should we give primacy to secondary progressions, solar arcs, return charts or primary directions? What about lunations and eclipses too?

I was reading Michael O'Reilly's book on the USA Scorpio rising horoscope yesterday. The fact he relies on asteroids so much is something I find quite off putting as a traditionalist. Thats not a criticism of his astrology its just not the way I would assess a chart.

Do we consider an aspect working using aspect type or the planets involved? Which planet is ruling a Scorpio rising chart? Do the astrologers use midpoints, lots, fixed stars or asteroids? What house system are they using? The list of differences is endless.
Maybe astrologers working from a medieval and/or renaissance perspective could find enough common ground to assess charts.

I think rectification is only much use if you have a small time frame. The July 4th chart seems almost a hopeless case to me.

I don't think the salvation lies in more rectifications. Nicholas Campion is right in criticising the overemphasis on rectifications in mundane astrology. We should put more focus on locating accurate historical data. Its an interesting discussion actually. I may post Campion's comments on this as they are quite controversial.

Of course rectification has a place. However, too many astrologers will jump to rectify a chart without considering the historical validity of the chart in the first place. The Gemini rising chart and the numerous rectificatiions proposed for it is a classic case in point.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Yossarian
Guest





Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:
I am not sure about an astrological consensus though. Astrologers generally have an unremarkable knowledge of history. On miltary conflicts I think you will need a lot more than 6. The US have been involved in 6 military conflicts since Vietnam alone.


The real issue is what exactly can you see with a natal chart using predictive techniques? Can you tell when someone has a bowel movement? No, of course not, and the point is that it isn't possible to see everything, because many things are insignificant, unimportant or incidental. I suppose there are astrologers who might actually try to assign an asteroid as Lord of the Loo, or create the "Part of Water Closet," or something like that.

The US has been involved in about 128 conflicts where military units were deployed, but many of those, like the Korean War and the Vietnam War are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, just like the dozens of conflicts involving native Americans.

If someone wants to see all of those conflicts, then I recommend casting natal charts for each of the branch services, the army, marines, navy and air force. Or better yet, cast a chart for the War Department/Department of Defense.

I see a lot of cases where astrologers inject their personal feelings into political events which clouds their judgment and biases the chart reading. I hope they don't do that for clients. I understand that some people feel strongly about the assassination of Martin Luther King, but the reality is there isn't much difference between his death and the murder of Sharon Tate by Charles Manson and his family, and neither would necessarily appear in a country natal chart any more than the death of a beloved sports figure or entertainer would. On the other hand, if the death of MLK was a conspiracy involving renegade persons in government acting without authority, there might be an indication of that.

MarkC wrote:
In predictive terms apart from transits should we give primacy to secondary progressions, solar arcs, return charts or primary directions? What about lunations and eclipses too?


I use transits, secondary progressions and solar arcs, and sometimes solar returns.

As an example using my current USA natal chart project (with Sagittarius rising), on January 20, 2009 at 12:03 PM EST, the Solar Arc Ascendant will be conjunct natal Venus ruler of the MC, Solar Arc MC conjunct natal Jupiter, ruler of the ASC, transiting Uranus trine natal Uranus (orb = 6' of arc), Solar Arc Venus quincunx the MC (orb = 1' of arc), progressed Moon trine natal MC, and progressed Venus square natal Moon (orb = 4' arc), while Solar Return Moon conjunct natal ASC, Solar Return ASC conjunct natal Jupiter ruler of the natal ASC, Solar Return Venus conjunct Solar Return Uranus (all orbs less than 30' of arc except where noted and although I allow 3 degrees for solar returns, the orbs are 1 degree or less).

Based on that (and other major and minor aspects I didn't list), I'd say Hillary Clinton will be the next president of the USA. The election of the first female president would be an historic event, and it should be denoted by several major aspects without the need to resort to asteroids and theoretical planets or parts/lots. If it doesn't come to pass, I have the wrong chart and will have to start over. If it does, I might be on the right track, especially if other events come to pass.

Anyway, there should be half a dozen to a dozen Ptolemaic aspects across transit, secondary, solar arc and return charts without the need for extraneous chart points for any major event in a country's history.

I would be embarrassed to present a chart and claim that a semi-quadra-sesqui-septi-binovile-decile-partile square or some crap like that was the only link among 5 charts to a major event like 9-11.

MarkC wrote:
I was reading Michael O'Reilly's book on the USA Scorpio rising horoscope yesterday. The fact he relies on asteroids so much is something I find quite off putting as a traditionalist.


I find the asteroid lovers and the Uranian group with their theoretical planets to be totally useless. They need to put up or shut up. A lot of that stuff is just money oriented. Create a "new technique" or dredge up old crap then repackage it as new to sell lots of books and lessons, and strut about pompously at conventions.

MarkC wrote:
Do we consider an aspect working using aspect type or the planets involved? Which planet is ruling a Scorpio rising chart? Do the astrologers use midpoints, lots, fixed stars or asteroids? What house system are they using? The list of differences is endless.


One should be able to rectify or interpret any chart using the Sun, Moon, Mercury through Pluto, the Vertex, and the Nodes. If it's necessary to resort to parts/lots or asteroids, someone's grasping at straws.

MarkC wrote:
Of course rectification has a place. However, too many astrologers will jump to rectify a chart without considering the historical validity of the chart in the first place. The Gemini rising chart and the numerous rectifications proposed for it is a classic case in point.


Yes, it's quite astounding and mind-boggling that someone claiming to be an astrologer would even consider Gemini rising. With Sagittarius rising and progressing the chart backward, transiting Pluto and Uranus were in the 2nd and 4th Houses respectively during an economic depression in the colonies, and the rest of the world was also experiencing slight economic difficulties due to a liquidity crisis involving banks, not domestic or international corporations and not international finance.

When Uranus comes back to the 4th House in 1842, Pluto is in the 4th also, and we have the Great Depression (of the 19th Century). It started as a very long recession that eventually rolled into a depression about 6 years later and ended just prior to the Civil War, about 1857 or so.

When Uranus comes back to the 4th House a 3rd time, Pluto is in the 8th House and we have the Great Depression (of the 20th Century), with a transformation of corporations and international finance, not banks or the domestic banking system.

In each of the three previous Uranus transits, there were crop failures caused by weather phenomenon (like the Dirty '30s in the US with the "Dust Bowl") causing shortages which drove food prices up although that was not the proximate cause of the recessions. " By 1850 one traveler wrote, "Eastern Virginia appeared to have suffered the ravages of a great war or an attack by another horseman of the Apocalypse. I traveled for 50 miles on horseback and could find nothing but abandoned farms and plantations with buildings in decay and fields overgrown with nettles and brush. Mother Nature is reclaiming that which for 200 years has been giving food and clothing to man."

I don't expect people to know everything about everything, as that's unrealistic, but for rectifying country natal charts, they need to spend the time to do some research

Very soon Uranus will come back to the 4th House again, and Pluto will be in the 2nd House, just as it was during the world economic crisis of the 1760s. If the past is any indication of the future, then the US should experience a severe economic depression lasting 12 -15 years, but no one will see that with a Gemini or Scorpio rising chart.
Back to top
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4963
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The US has been involved in about 128 conflicts where military units were deployed, but many of those, like the Korean War and the Vietnam War are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, just like the dozens of conflicts involving native Americans.


I dont agree in respect to the Vietnam war. This was after all one of the USA's first experiences of military defeat (although the war of 1812 was certainly a US defeat too from a Canadian perspective). The withdrawal of the last US marines from the embassy in Saigon and the subsequent fall of the South Vietnamese regime represent an historic nadir for American foreign policy. Of course this should be tied into concurrent US domestic issues such as Watergate and the resignation of Nixon.

Quote:
I understand that some people feel strongly about the assassination of Martin Luther King, but the reality is there isn't much difference between his death and the murder of Sharon Tate by Charles Manson and his family, and neither would necessarily appear in a country natal chart any more than the death of a beloved sports figure or entertainer would. On the other hand, if the death of MLK was a conspiracy involving renegade persons in government acting without authority, there might be an indication of that.


I wouldn't expect the assassination of Martin Luther King to compare to a Presidential assasination or other major event connected to the Presidency. On the other hand for the black population of the US ( approximately 12% of the total then) this man represented probably the most important figure in America. The other examples you give dont compare or come close to emotional impact this must have had for black americans.

Quote:
I see a lot of cases where astrologers inject their personal feelings into political events which clouds their judgment and biases the chart reading
.

I think total objectivity is an impossible ideal. Equally, we all have our strengths and weaknesses in terms of knowledge. A financial astrologer probably perceives things I don't even understand. Let me give you an example of this kind of gap in knowledge. I was reading recently about the Spanish influenza epidemic of 1918-1919. I was shocked to discover that far more Americans died of this virus ( 675,000) than the combined US military casualties of WWI and WWII. Global estimates of death through this pandemic range from 20 to 100 million. However, this pandemic is often ignored by astrologers because it was a catastrophic public health issue rather than something usually within the radar of mundane astrology ie politics, economics or military conflict.

Quote:
I use transits, secondary progressions and solar arcs, and sometimes solar returns.

As an example using my current USA natal chart project (with Sagittarius rising), on January 20, 2009 at 12:03 PM EST, the Solar Arc Ascendant will be conjunct natal Venus ruler of the MC, Solar Arc MC conjunct natal Jupiter, ruler of the ASC, transiting Uranus trine natal Uranus (orb = 6' of arc), Solar Arc Venus quincunx the MC (orb = 1' of arc), progressed Moon trine natal MC, and progressed Venus square natal Moon (orb = 4' arc), while Solar Return Moon conjunct natal ASC, Solar Return ASC conjunct natal Jupiter ruler of the natal ASC, Solar Return Venus conjunct Solar Return Uranus (all orbs less than 30' of arc except where noted and although I allow 3 degrees for solar returns, the orbs are 1 degree or less).


Is this the July 4th chart or something later? What time are you actually working with?

Quote:
Based on that (and other major and minor aspects I didn't list), I'd say Hillary Clinton will be the next president of the USA. The election of the first female president would be an historic event, and it should be denoted by several major aspects without the need to resort to asteroids and theoretical planets or parts/lots. If it doesn't come to pass, I have the wrong chart and will have to start over. If it does, I might be on the right track, especially if other events come to pass.


Well I admire your confidence. I think its quite tricky relying on the disputed natal data. How about the simple Democrat vs Republican issue. Have you looked at the party charts? I have had a quick look but but I wouldn't feel that confident to state much yet.

Quote:
Anyway, there should be half a dozen to a dozen Ptolemaic aspects across transit, secondary, solar arc and return charts without the need for extraneous chart points for any major event in a country's history.

I would be embarrassed to present a chart and claim that a semi-quadra-sesqui-septi-binovile-decile-partile square or some crap like that was the only link among 5 charts to a major event like 9-11.


Yes I noticed Michael O'Reilly has to resort to sesqui-quadrates and semi-squares to support the Scorpio rising chart. Not including his heavy reliance on asteroids. I need to give Solar arcs more focus as I have tended to rely on transits, progressions and return charts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated