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Ethical Quandry

 
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Sunny Dawn



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 144
Location: Brunswick, MD

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:18 pm    Post subject: Ethical Quandry Reply with quote

Folks, I am dealing with a difficult personal situation that is really disturbing me, and placing me in a potentially rotten ethical position with regard to use of astrology. I would appreciate some sensitive judgment on the ethical implications of this possible scenario. If you wouldn’t mind putting yourself in my shoes, what would you do in my place? Also, I am not expert with classical techniques, so I would appreciate input from a classical perspective on things I might have missed.

A little while ago, I began have a recurring dream of a young girl walking toward me. She has reddish hair, and is about seven or eight years old. She is coming to stay with me, although she may not be with me for long. In the next part of the dream, she is grown, and there is some resentment between us. She has also become an artist or a fashion designer (pursued an artistic career of some sort). My intuition tells me that it is my brother’s little girl, who is now 10 months old.

Her Birth Data:
 10:37am in Ft. Meyers, FL on June 12, 2007.
 Ascendent at 14 degrees Leo. Saturn at 21 Leo in 1st House directly
opposite Neptune at 20 Aquarius in 7th House. Her progressed
Ascendant will conjunct this powerful opposition when she is roughly
seven years old, in 2014.

Her father is my brother, who just recently lost his home to foreclosure in FL. He is essentially the sole breadwinner for his family (my sister-in-law is from the Ukraine, and speaks a highly competent but strongly accented English, which limits her employability here). She works at a local department store, making $9 an hour. All they have is health insurance for the baby, which is cheaply obtained in FL. They cannot afford it for themselves. They have no life insurance that I am aware of. My sister-in-law could not raise this child without help should anything happen to my brother.

My brother and sister-in-law are not comfortable with astrology in general, and I don’t know how receptive my brother would be to the conversation that I need to have with him. Normally, I would just try to reassure myself that plenty of alternative outcomes are possible, and that “free will” is stronger than fate. But I have looked at my brother’s progressions for the 2014, and my own, and I am sick at heart. I have no reliable time of birth for my sister-in-law.

My Brother’s Birth Data:
 3:44am in Washington, DC on August 19, 1972.
 Fallen Moon in his Vedic 6th House opposite 12th House Saturn. The
fallen Moon rules the 2nd House, where his Ketu resides. The 12th
House Saturn rules the 8th House, which contains his Rahu. My
brother has just begun his seven year Ketu dasa. It will end in 2014,
right around the time that Rahu matures and gives maximum effect.
Pluto 0 Libra 35
Nadir 7 Libra 19
Uranus 15 Libra 38
 In 2014, he has the following progressions:
Sun 7 Libra 05 (nearly exactly conjunct the Nadir)
Mercury 15 Libra 03 (right on top of Uranus)
Mars 29 Virgo 29 (1 degree away from Pluto)

My brother was in the difficult Saturn dasa as a child, with no help at all from that opposing fallen Moon. He suffered a serious injury to his forehead at the age of three, but fully recovered. Our mother died in 1985 when I was 15 and he was 13. (My Vedic Moon is tightly conjunct a fallen Saturn in Ashwini). In 1986, my father had my brother placed in a juvenile psychiatric institute where he was excessively sedated and where he witnessed either an attempted or an actual suicide. I am not willing to discuss the lengths I went to in order to get my brother out of that place, or what it did to my sixteen year old soul.

Let me shift gears a moment here. This is from Vivian Robson, who is quoting Ptolemy on aspects suggesting incest. I mention this because I have a Capricorn Venus, a Mars in Pisces, and Saturn tightly conjunct the Moon in Taurus.


Ptolemy on “Incest”
 Should Venus be in Scorpio or Capricorn, and Mars in Libra or Pisces,
there will be intercourse with a brother or sister, or a blood relation.
 Venus and Saturn, each planet being in each other’s house or
exaltation. When the aspect is formed in the Midheaven or Ascendant
and the Moon is in conjunction with the angular planet, men will have
intercourse with their mothers, maternal aunts, or mother-in-laws. In
a woman’s chart, it denotes intercourse with sons, nephews, and sons-
in-law.

There is no incest involved, but I do think this refers to siblings who have shared painful or taboo experiences. It may also involve a scenario in which one sibling “shares” a child with the other, or treats the other’s child as their own.

My Own Birth Data:
 9:13 pm on January 14, 1970 in Washington, DC
 Natal Ceres conjunct the “astrologer’s degree” at 27 degrees Aquarius
(with everything that the myth of Demeter entails) directly opposite
Vesta, the servant and quiet older sister of Zeus who guards the
hearth.
 8th House Yod with Moon/Saturn at apex, 1st House Pluto (lord of 3rd
house of siblings), and 3rd House Neptune
 My own progressions for 2014 are inconclusive. But I note that my
progressed Moon is about two years away from an inconjunct with
Pluto, a progression Sophia Mason describes as, “inducing serious
arguments over money or goods belonging to the dead through
someone who has an obsession with these matters.” It also suggests
money gained through underhanded tactics.
 In terms of 2014 transits, Saturn conjuncts 3rd House Neptune.
Uranus is about to enter my 8th House, but won’t activate that apex
for several years.

Based on what I have described so far, I am now struggling with the ethical decision of what I can do to protect my brother. I can advise him to get life insurance, but he probably won’t be able to afford the coverage his family is going to need if the worst should happen. Health insurance is pretty much out of the question. I don’t have it myself. But I could urge him to pay for a yearly check-up out of pocket.

What I cannot do is sit down with him and tell him that I have essentially dreamed of his death, or possibly predicted it in his chart. My feeling is if he can survive a Ketu dasa like the one he’s got, along with a progressed western Sun on the Nadir and progressed Mars on Pluto, he can survive anything. His following Venus dasa looks wonderful. This leaves me with the need to make a very difficult decision myself: Do I take life insurance policies on my brother myself, to either supplement his coverage, or cover him if I can’t convince him to do it?

I can foresee the problems this might cause with my sister-in-law, should anything happen to my brother. She would most likely return to the Ukraine with my niece. But my niece is an American citizen, and should she express a desire to remain in or return to the States as a child, this money would pay for her education through college. I won’t have the money to do it otherwise.

It would place me in a position of having profited from his possible death. This makes me feel guilty. It makes me think of Faustian bargains. I really hope that I have misinterpreted everything I have described above, and that if I do purchase insurance, I can simply drop the policies. Or would it be better if I just kept my hands clean and walked away? I don’t want to think about where my brother might have been if I had done that when he was fourteen and I was sixteen, or where his daughter might end up if I do that now.

If anyone has noticed astrology I may have overlooked, or has an objective perspective on the ethics of my upcoming decision, I would appreciate the insights. I still have a few years left before I need to confront this decision squarely. Also, thanks to everyone who took the time to read this very long post.
_________________
All I know is that if my birth chart was a horary, the answer would be "No".

My Blog: http://slushpileastrology.blogspot.com/
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Yossarian
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Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Ethical Quandry Reply with quote

Sunny Dawn wrote:
I can foresee the problems this might cause with my sister-in-law, should anything happen to my brother. She would most likely return to the Ukraine with my niece. But my niece is an American citizen


Your niece is also a Ukrainian citizen, like it or not, and under international law, she is Ukrainian, not American (it is the mother who determines status -- the mtDNA thing).

In the coming years of turbulence and destruction in the US, your niece will be in a safe place, and you will have a place to flee when things bottom out in the US, so leave your options open.

Sunny Dawn wrote:
I really hope that I have misinterpreted everything I have described above, and that if I do purchase insurance, I can simply drop the policies. Or would it be better if I just kept my hands clean and walked away?


Suggest that he get life insurance but don't insist. It will be a little expensive, but you can get a life policy for him without his knowledge and name your niece as sole beneficiary, or set up a trust with her as beneficiary. Just use your address for your niece's address, otherwise paperwork regarding policy updates/changes and beneficiary info will be mailed to your brother's house and someone will discover it, setting a random chain of events into motion.

Sunny Dawn wrote:
If anyone has noticed astrology I may have overlooked.


Before you start panicking over death, you ought to check the Hyleg/Aloccoden for verification. Mine is 89 years and about 18 months shy of what progressions indicate. A solar return will confirm also with the 4th, 8th, 9th and 12th houses active (as my solar return does). You can't rely just on progressions alone.

What does your niece's chart say? It should be crystal clear some kind of separation or death, and from a parent, plus the usual home things and you'd be looking at the 9th house and doing a solar return if it looks like she might be traveling to Ukraine.

About 4 years from now is when things in the US will get really nasty and stay that way through 2030, so you might also want to consider that separation in his chart might be from his homeland/family, as in he is moving to Ukraine to start a new life.
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Yossarian,

would you mind opening a thread about this in Mundane ? i would like to know your reasons for your dire predictions.

Hi, sunny dawn

my 2 cents,

1 - if you´re not 100% sure of any predictions, don´t share them. I saw a lot of bad things in my chart untill I learned to disregard most of this omens. Will only create worry

2 - if your brother is not confortable with astrology, is better not to talk about it

3 - if he can´t aford the basic protection, let it be. Anyway, it´s only an ilusion that we can really "protect" ourselves from the future. Bad things will happen to them, as weel as good things, worrying about won´t help.
_________________
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com
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Bobby



Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 8

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Sunny Dawn,

If I have put in the data of your brother correctly I have a Gemini ascendant (vedic chart) BUT a 1 min change in birth time will give the chart a Cancer ascendant. This changes everything!

The dasha running at the moment is that of the Moon (2008-2018) and not Ketu.

Take a look at Venus with the Cancer ascendant (in the 12th) I think it explains better the events that took place when your brother was 13 and what happened recently.

Can I ask when your brother married?

Regards....Bobby
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Sunny Dawn



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 144
Location: Brunswick, MD

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:56 pm    Post subject: Update... Reply with quote

Folks,

I have since made a decision on how I will deal with this, one which I hope does not involve a Faustian bargain, and one that does not inflict fear on folks who don't believe in astrology to begin with.

I want to thank everyone who posted in response. I think this post may have made people feel uncomfortable - I almost regretted posting.

Yossarin,

My niece is not a Ukranian citizen. There is no "like it or not" operating here. She was born in the US to a father with US citizenship. The mother would have had to apply for dual citizenship in the Ukraine personally, and so far she has not done it. Also, unless my niece learns to speak Ukranian fluently, she will never be accepted as a full citizen of that culture. My strong supposition is that she will become conversant, not fluent.

However, I suspect you are right about things bottoming out in the US, and her needing a safe place to go. I "saw" as much in my dreams about this child - the first one occured in 2002, five years before she was born.

Bobby,

Thank you for mentioning the change of Ascendants. This has really been bothering me. As you pointed out, it changes everything. Even though I'm working from my brother's birth certificate, it is still impossible to know if the nurse and doc actually recorded the time when he took his first breath, or put down an estimated time after doing the Apgar assessment, which is what often happens.

What does my niece's chart say?
Progressed Sun opposes Pluto around six years of age. Progressed Ascendent is partile a tight 1st House Saturn-Neptune opposition at the same age. Everything in her chart, my brother's chart, and my own lines up within 18 months.
_________________
All I know is that if my birth chart was a horary, the answer would be "No".

My Blog: http://slushpileastrology.blogspot.com/
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Yossarian
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Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sunny Dawn wrote:
My niece is not a Ukranian citizen. There is no "like it or not" operating here. She was born in the US to a father with US citizenship. The mother would have had to apply for dual citizenship in the Ukraine personally, and so far she has not done it.


No one has to file any paperwork at all. She's a Ukrainian citizen until such time as she is 18 years of age or older and permanently renounces her citizenship.

Most countries recognize dual citizenship over 18 years of age. However, the US officially does not recognize dual citizenship over 18 years of age. There are numerous legal actions where those who were German-American, Dutch-American, Israeli-American, Romanian-American etc tried to retain their dual citizenship while avoiding obligations such as the military draft. They were forced to renounce citizenship in one country and surrender its passport.

Oddly (or maybe not) the US allows the rules to be violated if the person is a US government employee, appointed or elected official and is also an Israeli citizen, so people like Feith and Wolfowitz and so on are dual US-Israeli citizens and carry passports for both countries.

Anyway, so long as your niece never renounces her Ukrainian citizenship, she can apply for and receive a passport at any time.

That means if she gets caught embezzling $3 Million from a bank she can flee to Ukraine (who only extradites for capital crimes like murder, kidnap, rape, arson and some drug offenses), which is kind of nice to know and it also means if she ever got involved with a psychopath husband or whatever and had to flee for her life she can flee (and take her children to protect them).

Quote:
Also, unless my niece learns to speak Ukranian fluently, she will never be accepted as a full citizen of that culture. My strong supposition is that she will become conversant, not fluent.


Depends on age and when foreign language instruction (for any language) begins (they start too late in the US), and yes she will be accepted whether she's fluent or not. Ukraine is quite cosmopolitan, with ethnic Germans, Romanians/Moldovans, Russians, and others including traveling gypsies and settled gypsies. I've been there. Ireland, Finnland, Sweden, Belarus, Switzerland, Austria, the Baltic states and Russia are the only European countries I have not spent at least 14 days in (Montenegro was part of Serbia when I was in Serbia).

Quote:
However, I suspect you are right about things bottoming out in the US, and her needing a safe place to go. I "saw" as much in my dreams about this child - the first one occured in 2002, five years before she was born.


Challenge her to take advantage of every opportunity and options should always be kept open (so says this former soldier).

Quote:
Even though I'm working from my brother's birth certificate, it is still impossible to know if the nurse and doc actually recorded the time when he took his first breath, or put down an estimated time after doing the Apgar assessment, which is what often happens.


You should have enough events to rectify the chart. Age harmonics might work better than progressions. If he's over 36 you might want to precess the chart. Sure, it's only 30" of arc but when your orb is 1 degree it makes a difference.

Quote:
What does my niece's chart say?
Progressed Sun opposes Pluto around six years of age. Progressed Ascendent is partile a tight 1st House Saturn-Neptune opposition at the same age. Everything in her chart, my brother's chart, and my own lines up within 18 months.


Which house Pluto? Look for progressed Moon in 8th as it sometimes signifies death and solar return Sun/Moon for life changes (the aspect will hint as to the type).

I still would be hesitant to mention anything to your brother for fear of setting a self-fulfilling prophecy in motion. There are plenty of term policies to buy to protect them. The cost of caskets, burial plots, funeral home rental and grave markers can run over $10,000 alone, so keep that in mind when shopping around.
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