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Kundig Method
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luna



Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 9
Location: canada

Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 11:57 pm    Post subject: Kundig Method Reply with quote

I recently purchased a book by Irene Christensen on the Kundig Method of rectification.
I am finding it a hard read.
Is their anyone out their who is familiar and could explain if the method of directing is primary directions
Thanks in advance
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3438
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Luna,

I'm not familiar with the book, but I am familiar with primary directions. I'm guessing that Kundig used primary directions to rectify the chart. Primary directions aren't difficult to understand, but the math required to calculate them is difficult.

Primary directions are based on primary motion. Primary motion is also called diurnal or daily motion. The planets rise, culminate, set and anti-culminate every day in clockwise motion from east to west. Imagine a chart and imagine the planets staying in that position just like we work with a chart. The planets don't really stay put they continue to move through the sky. So let's say we Have Mars in the early 12th house and Jupiter on the MC. During the day, Mars will continue to move until it reaches the place Jupiter was at the time of birth. That distance is measured in an arc or arc of direction. The distance in terms of degrees is converted to symbolic time. Let's say we use one degree for a year the way Ptolemy did and the distance is 35 degrees. So we day Mars is directed to Jupiter at age 35 and we make a prediction based on that.

We can do the same thing for an angle. We determine the arc between Mars and the MC and we say that Mars is directed to the MC at age such and such. All authors direct to the angles the same way, but not all authors use the same symbolic time. Ptolemy used a degree for a year. Naibod used the mean motion of the Sun to symbolize a year, so every 59 minuted and 8 seconds of arc equaled one year. This number used to symbolize a year of the life is called a "key."

All astrologers direct to angles the same way, but they all don't agree on the symbolic time. To further complicate things, not all astrologers direct planets to other planets the same way. So to use our example, different methods of directing can be used with a variety of keys yielding a variety of results.

I'm not sure how Kundig directed planet to planet. And he may well have used his own "key." But however he did it, that would be the method he used to rectify a chart and that, I'm guessing is what is taught in the book you mentioned.

I cannot explain how to calculate primary directions either with a calculator or by using tables. I don't know how. And even if I did, I couldn't do it in a post. There is a computer program available that can do this, but it is expensive.

I hope this helps a little.

Tom
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 301
Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can find a cheap (as in free beer) program that calculates primaries at http://mysite.verizon.net/vze6qirr/myindex.html

It does both zodiacal and Placidus mundo directions, with a choice of several static keys, and of coordinate systems (conventional geocentric apparent, topocentric apparent or topocentric true). Since it uses the Swiss Ephemeris, you can add in various time ranges.

Binary distributions are there for Winders and OSX. The source distribution can be built for most UNIX-like OS'es. License is GPL.

If you install for Windows, and have Solar Fire installed, be very careful to select Solar FIre's directory for the Swiss Ephemeris. If you have a problem, the distribution has contact info.

- Ed

Kundig, if I remember rightly, used Placidian "under the pole" mundo directions for his rectification work.
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RegulusAstrology



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 147
Location: USA

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 2:15 am    Post subject: Kundig Reply with quote

Ed: does your program extend beyond 100 years? This seems to be a limit on many software programs including Kolev's. Janus can do 200 years. I have a need to do up to 360 years. Curious.

Luna: I also have the identical book you describe by Irene Christensen. I haven't really looked at it in detail, but glancing through it tonight I will give you two comments.

The assumption about rectification given on p.21 is in my opinion completely bogus. It reads:

'I do not hesitate any longer in determining the true time of birth. Kundig gave me the answer. A time axis exists: The meridian. By his method, Kundig shows that the cosmic birth determining our destiny, can only take place at certain moments, i.e. when the two planets ruling the actual meridian axis (the ruler of the sign on the cusp of MC, and the ruler of the sign on the cusp of IC) occupy positions which are in a mutual, mathematical relation to the same meridian axis. Based on a given birth moment and by a simple calculation, this will result in ten different birth time possibilities, of which only one can be correct. Kundig calls these ten possibilities, of which only one can be correct. Kundig calls these ten possibilities the ten sections. His theory is based the astrological fact that the distance from the Moon of the Earth to the Sun is one tenth of the distance from the Sun to Saturn.'

I am sorry but this statement appears something that Kundig made up and is nowhere in the literature. As I said it is completely bogus.

The section beginning on p. 43 called 'The Individual Sun-key' talks about a variable key - something other than 1 year per 1 degree - based on the Sun's speed at birth. There is nothing the matter with this approach but this is what is known these days as the solar arc method of directing. It has nothing to do with primary directions as practiced by the medievals.

If you recently paid for this book and have your receipt, I would recommend attempting to get a refund.

Dr. H.
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Dr. H.
World Class Research in Medieval Predictive Astrology
www.regulus-astrology.com
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 301
Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. H,

The program covers the range available with the Swiss Ephemeris, though it does not support entering Old Style dates (you would have to convert from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar first by some other means). The default range is "current". For other ranges, you just download the relevant ephemeris files from astro.com and add them into the program's ephemeris folder.

- Ed
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote: "There is a computer program available that can do this, but it is expensive" and Ed mentioned Solar Fire in discussing his program. In these primary direction discussions Solar Fire primary mundane calculations aren't usually talked about, almost as if they aren't seriously considered an option. Am I right in assuming that the Solar Fire calculations aren't considered to be correct? If not, could someone tell me why?
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 301
Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk,

I don't know the details of the Solar Fire calculations, and so can't make any comment on them. Perhaps there's a good description in the documentation? I don't own the program.

Unless the methods are adequately described, it's difficult to assess them. Of course, part of the problem is that perhaps only Rumen Kolev has written anything resembling an overview of the possible variations in his "Primary Directions I & II". I have not looked into Makransky's online book sufficiently to see whether he provides the same kind of coverage. I have heard complimentary comments about it, though.

- Ed
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ed,

Thank you. Idea I suppose the logical thing to do would be to download your program and see how the calculations of one chart's directions compare to to those produced by Solar Fire. Maybe Tom has compared Solar Fire calculations and those of the program he mentioned?

I'm asking because I have found some very interesting and accurate hits with Solar Fire, and also plenty of times of no hits when there should have been something. But that could be due to my abilities (or lack thereof).
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 301
Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk,

Primaries are tricky because there are so many variations. You have to decide the domification problem (not a trivial decision). Then decide on a key or the use of multiple keys. Then decide on whether you're going to use zodiacal or mundo directions. And finally, which ones? To angles, cusps, interplanetary, reflections around the angles, reflections between radix and directed, or also between two directed planets? Orbs?

If you're serious about studying them, though, one of the best sources I can recommend is those two Kolev booklets, that you can pick up cheap at astroamerica.com.

- Ed

ps if you decide to install my program, and have Solar Fire installed, be sure to select SF's Swiss Ephemeris directory rather than the one that comes with my program. SF is neurotic about this issue. If you have any problems with SF running after the install, just let me know and we can fix it.
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Tom
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk,

The expensive program I referred to was Placidus - Rumen Kolev's program. It costs nearly $400.00 US - maybe more now that he is living in Europe. I still use Solar Fire version 5. They upgraded twice since then. I didn't keep up. I understand the newest version has more sophisticated calculations of primaries but I don't' know what they are. Janus has a primary direction module, too. Since I have Kolev's program, I do not use it, but I'll check when I have time.

There are two methods of calculating primary directions, in zodiac and in mundo. In zodiac is exactly what you think it is. The planets are directed in the direction of the zodiac using celestial longitude. Mundo primaries sue the positions of the planets as they are for real using latitude and declination. The calculations are more complex.

Someone, I'm not sure who, told me that almost all the older authorities directed in zodiac. I'm not sure if that is true. Kolev says his research indicated directions in mundo are more accurate than directions in zodiac. Kolev knows as much about the historical and mathematical sides of primary directions as anyone alive and he has done a lot of research comparing methods. He knows what he is talking about. He is not infallible, no one is, but he really knows his stuff including all the various mathematical methods of directing and he knows how each of the most important authorities directed.

I second Ed's recommendation. Get Kolev's booklet's on the primaries. The first two are "how to" the third is a look at Lilly's directions and Regiomontanus. It's not necessary for understanding but it is worthwhile.

Tom

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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 301
Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:

"There are two methods of calculating primary directions, in zodiac and in mundo. In zodiac is exactly what you think it is. The planets are directed in the direction of the zodiac using celestial longitude. Mundo primaries sue the positions of the planets as they are for real using latitude and declination. The calculations are more complex."

Alessandro Barone insisted to me that the zodiacal directions are the more traditional historical method. I can buy that, but my experience is that the mundo directions are more accurate.

The zodiacal directions as Rumen described them (and as I programmed them) involve directing the bodies of the promissors to the zodiacal intercepts of the significators. This still involves proportional movement along declination circles in the diurnal (clockwise) direction. The complexity of the calculations are comparable - the zodiacal directions just require that the celestial latitude of the significators and of aspects to them be zeroed before converting to equatorial coordinates for calculating the primary arc.

I have tested the subset implemented by my program of what Rumen's Placidus does for agreement with the latter, which I also own. Placidus is a much more comprehensive program than mine. I would say it's the very best available for this area of inquiry.

- Ed
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom & Ed,

Thanks. I'm using Solar Fire Deluxe (6). It's time for me to read Kolev, and to master the celestial sphere and coordinate systems in order to understand what the heck is going on.

It looks like we need to get away from the singular and switch to the plural: While we can talk about secondary progressions and solar arc directions as 2 individual techniques, 'primary directions' consists of a number of techniques that are varied enough to make them separate.
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 301
Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Variations on a theme, anyway, if not distinctly different beasts.

See "Conceptual Basis" at http://www.levante.org for a consistent theory underlying the various kinds of progressions and directions. You may want to read it after doing Rumen's material, though.
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Finland

Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
I understand the newest version has more sophisticated calculations of primaries but I don't' know what they are.

If someone has more exact information about this, please share it! I have Solar Fire 6, and the primary directions there are the same as in version 5, in mundo directions. I also have Kolev's booklets and I've once studied how to calculate in mundo directions by hand by his instructions, and the results I got were the same as those by Solar Fire, so I don't think there's anything seriously wrong with primaries by Solar Fire. But it would be nice if they had included more options, zodiacal directions for example.
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 301
Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is good news that their implementation matches Rumen's for mundo directions. Glad to know that. Do they offer multiple keys? Which one(s)?

Thanks,

- Ed
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