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Mutual receptions with 'presence'

 
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Edward
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:22 pm    Post subject: Mutual receptions with 'presence' Reply with quote

Hello Folks,

if for example Moon in Cancer (rulership) is conjunct Jupiter in Cancer (exaltation) I read this is called "mutual reception with presence", i.e. both planets are conjunct and receive each other in some way. A mutual reception not in the same sign would then be called "mutual reception with absence".

The example with Moon and Jupiter in Cancer is, I think, quite fine and looks good as both planets are angular, essentially strong and like each other much.

But how would you interpret Moon with Saturn in Capricorn in a day-time chart? The detrimented Moon receives Saturn in sign, but dignified Saturn receives the Moon in detriment.

Is the conjunction with the dispositor a good sign for the Moon (feelings etc.) or a bad, as it is anyway detrimented?


Have a nice day,
Ed
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zuli



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 83

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edward wrote:
But how would you interpret Moon with Saturn in Capricorn...

Is the conjunction with the dispositor a good sign for the Moon (feelings etc.) or a bad, as it is anyway detrimented?

Saturn receives Moon, but where!? She is received in a bad place. So, received or not, I think, Moon feels bad. Even more, I think, Saturn worsens Moon by conjunction with her. It would not be so bad for her if Saturn were in Aquarius. If Saturn were in Cancer it might be quite better or best for such a Moon. Might it not?
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Finland

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got yesterday my copy of the new Sahl/Masha'allah translation by Ben Dykes Thumbs up , and Dykes discusses this subject in the introduction. Reception always makes things better for the received planet and for the whole horoscope. Benefics when received produce more good, and malefics are less inimical, less malefic. With a malefic it's like whether you have a bad guy acting in an unexpected and irregular way (an unreceived malefic) or whether you have a "tamed" or "domesticated" malefic working in a constructive way for you (a received malefic).

If Saturn receives Moon into his domicile, it's good for the Moon though the sign itself is foreign to her by nature. Saturn helps the Moon and is friendly to her, provided the Moon is applying Saturn. If the Moon is separating from Saturn, it's not so good, because the opportunity has passed. The Moon was about to be received, but something happened and the opportunity passed by.

Dykes makes a very interesting point when he notes that actually in most medieval texts the seventh sign is not specially referred as the sign of "detriment", but it seems to be a later development. Exaltation and fall are discussed carefully, but there's no similar pairing with domicile/detriment positions. The word "detriment" is used in a general way for any weakening condition including aspects from malefics etc., and it has a connotation of decay, wearing away etc., pointing to Aristotle's generation and corruption as parts of the eternal cycle of life. This struck me because in Indian astrology there is neither such debility as "detriment". Planets can be exalted or fallen, or then in their domiciles or the signs of friends or enemies. But being in the opposite sign to one's own is not considered a special condition as such.

Of course, as Dykes points out, when a planet is in an opposite sign to its own domicile, it's in a place whose ruler is very different by nature than it is. When the Moon ("the Queen of the Night" like the White Witch in Narnia - Aslan in turn represents of course the Sun, and the Sun and the Moon hate each other in Bonatti's list of planetary friendships and enmities; the story is about the battle between winter and summer, or night and day) is in the domicile of Saturn, the Queen enters a place managed by people used to hard work and the harsh realities of life, and additionally a place where things signified by Mars (soldiers, violence, riots, masculinity, etc.) are exalted. But when there is an applying aspect or conjuction (without anyone else coming into way), she is well received there, esteemed and in safe.
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Edward
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Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for this great post, Papretis!

Helps to clear things up. I thought of it quite similar, as an (applicative) aspect to a dignified dispositor generally is said to be a good sign for each planet.

But what's the case with Sun in Aries conjunct Venus in Aries in a day-time chart? (Venus combust, not cazimi) The Sun is in exaltation and triplicity, Venus is in detriment. The Sun combusts Venus and additionally, is totally overpowering it by essential dignity. So the conjunction with the Sun can't be really good for Venus or is this an exception?


Greets,
Edward
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SusieN



Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 220
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for this interesting thread - it really got me thinking!

It's fascinating that in Indian astrology there is no such thing as detriment. Just as in Edward's example with Venus combust in Aries, we'd have to re-think Mercury combust in Sagittarius (Sun trip) in a day time chart, or Saturn conjunct Moon in Cancer, etc.

I have Moon in Capricorn applying to conjoin Saturn, and I've never felt quite as doomy and gloomy about this placement as the textbooks would have me believe..... IMHO my Moon works just fine! Very Happy

Thanks for the tip about Ben Dykes' translation....

Regards

Susie
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Finland

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edward wrote:
But what's the case with Sun in Aries conjunct Venus in Aries in a day-time chart? (Venus combust, not cazimi) The Sun is in exaltation and triplicity, Venus is in detriment. The Sun combusts Venus and additionally, is totally overpowering it by essential dignity. So the conjunction with the Sun can't be really good for Venus or is this an exception?

Hi Edward,

Bonatti says that a combust planet is simply weakened. Combust malefics are too weak to do evil things, combust benefics are too weak to do good. Venus in Aries is a worse thing as such than the Moon in Capricorn, because the Moon and Capricorn share the cold quality and Saturn is the sect mate of the Moon. So they have certain common interests, and the Moon has elemental dignity in Earth. But when Venus is in Aries, she's in a sign completely foreign to her. She is cool and moist by nature, Aries is hot and dry. She is feminine, Aries is masculine. There's no elemental dignity. Maybe the only benefit Venus has (if she's not in her own bound or face) is that Mars is her sect mate and Mars and Venus love each other in the planetary friendship scheme.

Basically, when the Sun receives Venus into his element and exaltation, it's good, but at the same time he weakens Venus and makes her invisible and ineffective, kind of non-existent. Lilly says that a combust planet is in great fear, and by looking at the house the Sun rules, we can see what it is that Venus fears and is overpowered by. I would think that combustion outdoes all the other considerations here, it's such a serious debility. Venus is kind of a concubine for the Sun, the king, getting food and shelter and possibly even a luxurious lifestyle, but no freedom to act on her own or to do anything independent or meaningful.
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