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Critical Degrees
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1358
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
I'm not sure since I've never paid much attention to the so-called "anaretic" degrees, but I think we're talking apples and oranges here. The idea that 29 - 30 degrees of a sign is "critical" or "anaretic" is a modern concept and I'm not sure where it came from. It may be related to the terms (bounds), but since moderns or at least late 19th century and later astrologers didn't use the bounds, I can't see how that could be.
Tom


Hello Tom!
I don't know if it is a proper source but Manilius (Astronomica, IV 433-497) gives as partes damnandae between the rest:
27 Aries, 30 Taurus, 29 Gemini, 29 Cancer, 30 Leo, 30 Virgo, 30 Libra, 29 Scorpio, 30 Sagittarius, 29 Aquarius and 22 Leo mentioned somewhere in this thread.
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MorningSun



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 233

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:26 pm    Post subject: Critical degrees and 29 degrees different concept Reply with quote

Hello Tom,

Thank you for your very informative response!! However, I believe this thread is discussing TWO DIFFERENT concepts. One being Critical Degrees, which is a lost ancient use of the Lunar Mansions, from what I researched so far.

Then there is the concept of the last degrees of a sign 27-29, as being critical or portending a crisis or event.

I believe these two concepts need to be kept separate as the "traditional"???, (I realize it is not traditional in the sense of traditional Astrology, however, traditional in all the references I can find), use of Critical Degrees are not the 27-29, but 0, 13 and 26 degrees of all cardinal signs, 9 &21 of Fixed Signs and 4 & 17 of Mutuable Signs.

It is something to watch however, to see how many astrologers, if any, have found any merit or significant actual relationships to either of these concepts, in relationship to events, or characteristics.

Thanks so much
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Richard Vetter



Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 54
Location: Offenburg, Germany

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The German astrologers Michael Roscher and Wolfgang Doebereiner extensivelay use critical degrees (Doebereiner calls them 'group-destiny days'), attributing planetary constellations to most degrees of the Zodiac. Their lists differ enormously, though...
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MorningSun



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 233

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:33 pm    Post subject: Your Link Reply with quote

Hello Richard,

I did go to your link, however, the translating feature for the web page was not very good!!

Could you briefly share with us how they are using the critical degrees?

Thanks
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Richard Vetter



Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 54
Location: Offenburg, Germany

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Your Link Reply with quote

MorningSun wrote:
Could you briefly share with us how they are using the critical degrees?
Hi,
the links above (or below) are my personal sites (I didn't manage to put them into my profile); they have nothing to do with "critical degrees" (if you want to read some stuff of mine: I translated several articles and placed them onto my 'astroInfo').
So here is Doebereiner's - in the meantime possibly changed - list (sorry, both are in German, but I guess you can read them):
4.5ψ Widder - Mars-Neptun
5.5ψ Widder - Uranus-Neptun
7.5ψ Widder - Uranus-Sonne
9.0ψ Widder - Uranus-Neptun
10.0ψ Widder - Uranus-Mond
14.0ψ Widder - Uranus-Jupiter
17.5ψ Widder - Uranus-Mars
22.0ψ Widder - Mars-Jupiter
24.0ψ Widder - Mars-Venus
27.5ψ Widder - Saturn-Neptun
3.0ψ Stier - Jupiter-Venus
5.0ψ Stier - Merkur-Uranus
7.0ψ Stier - Saturn-Mondknoten
10.0ψ Stier - Sonne-Pluto
10.5ψ Stier - Venus-Pluto
19.5ψ Stier - Mond-Pluto
20.0ψ Stier - Sonne-Pluto
23.0ψ Stier - Saturn-Mondknoten
25.0ψ Stier - Uranus-Merkur
27.0ψ Stier - Jupiter-Venus
2.5ψ Zwillinge - Saturn-Merkur
6.0ψ Zwillinge - Venus-Saturn
8.0ψ Zwillinge - Jupiter-Mars
12.5ψ Zwillinge - Mars-Saturn
20.0ψ Zwillinge - Uranus-Mond
21.0ψ Zwillinge - Uranus-Pluto
22.5ψ Zwillinge - Uranus-Sonne
24.5ψ Zwillinge - Uranus-Neptun
25.5ψ Zwillinge - Merkur-Neptun
4.5ψ Krebs - Mond-Neptun
5.5ψ Krebs - Uranus-Neptun
7.5ψ Krebs - Uranus-Sonne
9.0ψ Krebs - Uranus-Pluto
10.0ψ Krebs - Uranus-Mond
17.0ψ Krebs - Mond-Saturn
22.0ψ Krebs - Jupiter-Mars
24.0ψ Krebs - Mond-Venus
27.5ψ Krebs - Merkur-Saturn
28.0ψ Krebs - Mars-Pluto
3.0ψ Lφwe - Jupiter-Pluto
5.0ψ Lφwe - Merkur-Uranus
7.0ψ Lφwe - Saturn-Mondknoten
10.0ψ Lφwe - Sonne-Pluto
10.5ψ Lφwe - Mond-Pluto
19.5ψ Lφwe - Venus-Pluto
20.0ψ Lφwe - Sonne-Pluto
23.0ψ Lφwe - Saturn-Mondknoten
25.0ψ Lφwe - Merkur-Uranus
27.0ψ Lφwe - Jupiter-Sonne
2.5ψ Jungfrau - Saturn-Sonne
6.0ψ Jungfrau - Venus-Merkur
8.0ψ Jungfrau - Jupiter-Mars
12.5ψ Jungfrau - Uranus-Saturn
16.0ψ Jungfrau - Jupiter-Uranus
20.0ψ Jungfrau - Uranus-Mond
21.0ψ Jungfrau - Uranus-Neptun
22.5ψ Jungfrau - Uranus-Sonne
24.5ψ Jungfrau - Uranus-Neptun
25.5ψ Jungfrau - Neptun-Venus
4.5ψ Waage - Venus-Neptun
5.5ψ Waage - Uranus-Neptun
7.5ψ Waage - Uranus-Sonne
9.0ψ Waage - Uranus-Neptun
10.0ψ Waage - Uranus-Mond
14.0ψ Waage - Jupiter-Uranus
17.5ψ Waage - Uranus-Saturn
22.0ψ Waage - Jupiter-Mars
24.0ψ Waage - Venus-Merkur
27.5ψ Waage - Saturn-Sonne
3.0ψ Skorpion - Jupiter-Sonne
5.0ψ Skorpion - Uranus-Merkur
7.0ψ Skorpion - Saturn-Mondknoten
10.0ψ Skorpion - Sonne-Pluto
10.5ψ Skorpion - Venus-Pluto
19.5ψ Skorpion - Mond-Pluto
20.0ψ Skorpion - Sonne-Pluto
23.0ψ Skorpion - Saturn-Mondknoten
25.0ψ Skorpion - Uranus-Merkur
27.0ψ Skorpion - Jupiter-Pluto
2.0ψ Schόtze - Mars-Pluto
2.5ψ Schόtze - Saturn-Merkur
6.5ψ Schόtze - Mond-Uranus
8.0ψ Schόtze - Mars-Jupiter
12.5ψ Schόtze - Saturn-Mond
20.0ψ Schόtze - Mond-Uranus
21.0ψ Schόtze - Pluto-Uranus
22.5ψ Schόtze - Sonne-Uranus
24.5ψ Schόtze - Neptun-Uranus
25.5ψ Schόtze - Mond-Neptun
4.5ψ Steinbock - Merkur-Neptun
5.5ψ Steinbock - Neptun-Uranus
7.5ψ Steinbock - Sonne-Uranus
9.0ψ Steinbock - Pluto-Uranus
10.0ψ Steinbock - Mond-Uranus
17.5ψ Steinbock - Mars-Saturn
22.0ψ Steinbock - Mars-Jupiter
24.0ψ Steinbock - Venus-Saturn
27.5ψ Steinbock - Merkur-Saturn
3.0ψ Wassermann - Venus-Jupiter
5.0ψ Wassermann - Merkur-Uranus
7.0ψ Wassermann - Saturn-Mondknoten
10.0ψ Wassermann - Sonne-Pluto
10.5ψ Wassermann - Mond-Pluto
19.5ψ Wassermann - Venus-Pluto
20.0ψ Wassermann - Sonne-Pluto
23.0ψ Wassermann - Saturn-Mondknoten
25.0ψ Wassermann - Merkur-Uranus
27.0ψ Wassermann - Uranus-Jupiter
2.5ψ Fische - Saturn-Neptun
5.5ψ Fische - Mars-Neptun
6.0ψ Fische - Mars-Venus
8.0ψ Fische - Mars-Jupiter
12.5ψ Fische - Mars-Uranus
16.0ψ Fische - Jupiter-Uranus
20.0ψ Fische - Mond-Uranus
21.0ψ Fische - Neptun-Uranus
22.5ψ Fische - Sonne-Uranus
24.5ψ Fische - Neptun-Uranus
And here is Roscher:
WIDDER:
29 Fische – 01 Widder: Mars/Neptun
01 – 02: Mo/Ur, Ve/Ma
02 – 03: Mo/Ma
03 – 04: Mo/Ne
04 – 05: Ma/Ur + Neptunfδrbung (Sa/Ur)
05 – 06: Ve/Ju
06 – 07: Ju/Pl + Ma
07 – 08: Ve/Ne
08 – 09: Mo/Me
09 – 10: Ve/Mondknoten
10 – 11: Mo/Ve
11 – 13: Ju + Ma
13 – 14: So/Pl
14 – 16: Ve/Ma
16 – 17: Pl (+Ve/Ur)
17 – 18: Ju/Sa
18 – 19: Ve + Ma
19 – 20: Mo/Ve
20 – 21: Ve/Sa
21 – 22: So/Me
22 – 23: Ve/Ve
23 – 24: Me + Ma
24 – 25: Sa/Ur
25 – 26: Ne/Ne/Ne
26 – 27: Ma/Pl
27 – 28: Mo/Ju
28 – 29: Mo/Ma
STIER
29 Widder – 01 Stier: Ve/Ma
01 – 02: Ma/Pl, Ve/Pl, Sa/Pl
02 – 03: So/Ve
03 – 04: Ve/Ve, Ve/Pl
04 – 05: Ju/Ur + Ma
05 – 06: So/Ju
06 – 07: Ve/Sa + Ur
07 – 08: Ma/Pl
08 – 09: Ju/Ur
09 – 10: Ve
10 – 11: Ur/Ne
11 – 13: Ju + Ve
13 – 14: Ne/Pl
14 – 16: Ve/Pl
16 – 17: Me/Pl
17 – 18: Mo/Pl
18 – 19: Ve + Ve
19 – 20: Ur/Ne
20 – 21: Ve
21 – 22: So/Ma
22 – 23: Me/Pl
23 – 24: Sa/Ur
24 – 25: So/Ju
25 – 26: Ma/Sa
26 – 27: Sa/Pl, (Ur/Pl)
27 – 28: Me/Sa/Ur
28 – 29: Me/Ur/Ne
ZWILINGE:
29 Krebs – 01 Zwillinge: Me/Ve
01 – 02: Ma/Ju
02 – 03: Sa/Ne
03 – 04: So/Ne
04 – 05: Ne/Ne/Ne
05 – 06: Sa/Ur
06 – 07: Me
07 – 08: Ve/Ju
08 – 09: So + Me
09 – 10: Ve/Ne
10 – 11: Mo/Ve
11 – 13: Ju + Me
13 – 14: So/Ma
14 – 16: Me/Ju
16 – 17: So/Pl
17 – 18: So/Me
18 – 19: Ve + Me
19 – 20: Sa/Pl
20 – 21: Me/Ma
21 – 22: Mo/So
22 – 23: Mo/Ju
23 – 24: Ur/Pl, Ju/Ne
24 – 25: Ju/Pl + Me
25 – 26: Sa/Ur
26 – 27: Me/Ne
27 – 28: Ma/Sa
28 – 29: Ne/Ne
KREBS:
29 Zwillinge – 01 Krebs: Me/Mo
01 – 02: Mo/Ur, Ve/Ma
02 – 03: Mo/Ma
03 – 04: Mo/Ne
04 – 05: Mo/Ur + Neptunfδrbung (Sa/Ur)
05 – 06: Ve/Ju
06 – 07: Ju/Pl + Mo
07 – 08: Me/Sa
08 – 09: Mo/Me
09 – 10: Ve/Mondknoten
10 – 11: Mo/Ve
11 – 13: Ju + Mo
13 – 14: So/Pl
14 – 16: Mo/Sa
16 – 17: Pl (+Ve/Ur)
17 – 18: Ju/Sa
18 – 19: Ve + Mo
19 – 20: Mo/Ve
20 – 21: Ve/Sa
21 – 22: So/Me
22 – 23: So/Sa
23 – 24: Me + Mo
24 – 25: Sa/Ur
25 – 26: Ne/Ne/Ne
26 – 27: Mo/Pl
27 – 28: Mo/Ju
28 – 29: Mo/Ma
LΦWE:
29 Krebs – 01 Lφwe: Mo/So
01 – 02: Ma/Pl, So/Pl, Sa/Pl
02 – 03: So/Ve
03 – 04: So/So, So/Pl
04 – 05: Ju/Ur + Ma
05 – 06: So/Ju
06 – 07: So/Sa + Ur
07 – 08: Mo/Ur
08 – 09: Ju/Ur
09 – 10: Ve
10 – 11: Ur/Ne
11 – 13: Ju + So
13 – 14: Ne/Pl
14 – 16: So/Ur
16 – 17: Me/Pl
17 – 18: Mo/Pl
18 – 19: Ve + So
19 – 20: Ur/Ne
20 – 21: Ve
21 – 22: So/Ma
22 – 23: Me/Ur
23 – 24: Sa/Ur
24 – 25: So/Ju
25 – 26: Ma/Sa
26 – 27: Sa/Pl, (Ur/Pl)
27 – 28: Me/Sa/Ur
28 – 29: Me/Ur/Ne
JUNGFRAU:
29 Lφwe – 01 Jungfrau: Me/So
01 – 02: Ma/Ju
02 – 03: Sa/Ne
03 – 04: So/Ne
04 – 05: Ne/Ne/Ne
05 – 06: Sa/Ur
06 – 07: Me
07 – 08: So/Ne
08 – 09: So + Me
09 – 10: Ve/Ne
10 – 11: Mo/Ve
11 – 13: Ju + Me
13 – 14: So/Ma
14 – 16: Me/Ne
16 – 17: So/Pl
17 – 18: So/Me
18 – 19: Ve + Me
19 – 20: Sa/Pl
20 – 21: Me/Ma
21 – 22: Mo/So
22 – 23: Ve/Ne
23 – 24: Ur/Pl, Ju/Ne
24 – 25: Ju/Pl + Me
25 – 26: Sa/Ur
26 – 27: Me/Ne
27 – 28: Ma/Sa
28 – 29: Ne/Ne
WAAGE:
29 Jungfrau – 01 Waage: Me/Ve
01 – 02: Mo/Ur, Ve/Ma
02 – 03: Mo/Ma
03 – 04: Mo/Ne
04 – 05: Ve/Ur + Neptunfδrbung (Sa/Ur)
05 – 06: Ve/Ju
06 – 07: Ju/Pl + Ve
07 – 08: Me/Ma
08 – 09: Mo/Me
09 – 10: Ve/Mondknoten
10 – 11: Mo/Ve
11 – 13: Ju + Ve
13 – 14: So/Pl
14 – 16: Ve/Ma
16 – 17: Pl (+Ve/Ur)
17 – 18: Ju/Sa
18 – 19: Ve + Ve
19 – 20: Mo/Ve
20 – 21: Ve/Sa
21 – 22: So/Me
22 – 23: Ma/Pl
23 – 24: Me + Ve
24 – 25: Sa/Ur
25 – 26: Ne/Ne/Ne
26 – 27: Ve/Pl
27 – 28: Mo/Ju
28 – 29: Mo/Ma
SKORPION:
29 Waage – 01 Skorpion: Ve/Pl
01 – 02: Ma/Pl, Pl/Pl, Sa/Pl
02 – 03: So/Ve
03 – 04: Pl/Pl, Pl/Pl
04 – 05: Ju/Ur + Ma
05 – 06: So/Ju
06 – 07: Sa/Pl + Ur
07 – 08: Ve/Ve
08 – 09: Ju/Ur
09 – 10: Ve
10 – 11: Ur/Ne
11 – 13: Ju + Pl
13 – 14: Ne/Pl
14 – 16: Ve/Pl
16 – 17: Me/Pl
17 – 18: Mo/Pl
18 – 19: Ve + Pl
19 – 20: Ur/Ne
20 – 21: Ve
21 – 22: So/Ma
22 – 23: Ve/Ju
23 – 24: Sa/Ur
24 – 25: So/Ju
25 – 26: Ma/Sa
26 – 27: Sa/Pl, (Ur/Pl)
27 – 28: Me/Sa/Ur
28 – 29: Me/Ur/Ne
SCHάTZE:
29 Skorpion – 01 Schόtze: Jupiter/Pluto
01 – 02: Ma/Ju
02 – 03: Sa/Ne
03 – 04: So/Ne
04 – 05: Ne/Ne/Ne
05 – 06: Sa/Ur
06 – 07: Me
07 – 08: Me/Pl
08 – 09: So + Ju
09 – 10: Ve/Ne
10 – 11: Mo/Ve
11 – 13: Ju + Ju
13 – 14: So/Ma
14 – 16: Me/Ju
16 – 17: So/Pl
17 – 18: So/Me
18 – 19: Ve + Ju
19 – 20: Sa/Pl
20 – 21: Me/Ma
21 – 22: Mo/So
22 – 23: Me/Sa
23 – 24: Ur/Pl, Ju/Ne
24 – 25: Ju/Pl + Ju
25 – 26: Sa/Ur
26 – 27: Ju/Ne (Me/Ne)
27 – 28: Ma/Sa
28 – 29: Ne/Ne
STEINBOCK:
29 Schόtze – 01 Steinbock: Ju/Sa
01 – 02: Mo/Ur, Ve/Ma
02 – 03: Mo/Ma
03 – 04: Mo/Ne
04 – 05: Sa/Ur + Neptunfδrbung (Sa/Ur)
05 – 06: Ve/Ju
06 – 07: Ju/Pl + Sa
07 – 08: Mo/Ju
08 – 09: Mo/Me
09 – 10: Ve/Mondknoten
10 – 11: Mo/Ve
11 – 13: Ju + Sa
13 – 14: So/Pl
14 – 16: Mo/Sa
16 – 17: Pl (+Ve/Ur)
17 – 18: Ju/Sa
18 – 19: Ve + Sa
19 – 20: Mo/Ve
20 – 21: Ve/Sa
21 – 22: So/Me
22 – 23: Mo/Ur
23 – 24: Me + Sa
24 – 25: Sa/Ur
25 – 26: Ne/Ne/Ne
26 – 27: Sa/Pl
27 – 28: Mo/Ju
28 – 29: Mo/Ma
WASSERMANN:
29 Steinbock – 01 Wassermann: Sa/Ur
01 – 02: Ma/Pl, Ur/Pl, Sa/Pl
02 – 03: So/Ve
03 – 04: Ur/Ur, Ur/Pl
04 – 05: Ju/Ur + Ma
05 – 06: So/Ju
06 – 07: Sa/Ur + Ur
07 – 08: So/Sa
08 – 09: Ju/Ur
09 – 10: Ve
10 – 11: Ur/Ne
11 – 13: Ju + Ur
13 – 14: Ne/Pl
14 – 16: So/Ur
16 – 17: Me/Pl
17 – 18: Mo/Pl
18 – 19: Ve + Ur
19 – 20: Ur/Ne
20 – 21: Ve
21 – 22: So/Ma
22 – 23: So/Ne
23 – 24: Sa/Ur
24 – 25: So/Ju
25 – 26: Ma/Sa
26 – 27: Sa/Pl, (Ur/Pl)
27 – 28: Me/Sa/Ur
28 – 29: Me/Ur/Ne
FISCHE:
29 Wassermann – 01 Fische: Ur/Ne
01 – 02: Ma/Ju
02 – 03: Sa/Ne
03 – 04: So/Ne
04 – 05: Ne/Ne/Ne
05 – 06: Sa/Ur
06 – 07: Me
07 – 08: Me/Ur/
08 – 09: So/Ne
09 – 10: Ve/Ne
10 – 11: Mo/Ve
11 – 13: Ju + Ne
13 – 14: So/Ma
14 – 16: Me/Ne
16 – 17: So/Pl
17 – 18: So/Me
18 – 19: Ve + Ne
19 – 20: Sa/Pl
20 – 21: Me/Ma
21 – 22: Mo/So
22 – 23: Me/Ma
23 – 24: Ur/Pl, Ju/Ne
24 – 25: Ju/Pl + Ne
25 – 26: Sa/Ur
26 – 27: Ne/Ne
27 – 28: Ma/Sa
28 – 29: Ne/Ne

Roscher is more systematic/ theoretically understandable, for in his system the degrees at a sign's end/ the beginning of the next bear the signature of both, i.e. 29 Aries - 1 Taurus is Mars-Venus, and a sign's midth also bears characteristics of the opposite sign, so 15 Cancer and 15 Capricorn are Moon-Saturn. Doebereiner found out his ones more "intuitively".
Yet, as far as I know, more than 20 different books about the degrees' characteristics do exist, e.g. Charubel or the Sabian symbols...
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Julie K



Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 378
Location: Australia

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:35 pm    Post subject: Critical Degrees Reply with quote

Tom,

My original teachings is where I began to look at my 29 Cap M/H and 29 Cancer I/C. As these degrees are on Angles maybe this is why I find they work so well for me. I could almost 'set my watch' as I know something will come into me at these times. They are always pleasant family experiences.

Maybe the idea is very old? I dont know.

Julie K
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Tom
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Julie,

Thanks for sharing that information. If I had to bet, I'd say your angles are what are being set off when you say things happen like clockwork.

I have a problem with these little techniques like anaretic degrees, whatever the one is that says the nodal degrees are critical in every sign, etc. I learned early on in my traditional studies that an awful lot of information can be gleaned with relatively few techniques if the astrologer has the knowledge and imagination. Not all astrologers should be assigned the same techniques mind you, but neither is it necessary to pile technique upon technique in order to get information from a chart. Traditional astrologers aren't immune to this sort of thing either. I've been reading an old text that wants the astrologer to take latitude and declination into account when delineating antiscion and aspects. This might make a fine subject for some study, but to add this to every chart seems to be a bit excessive. Perhaps if we all had a single wealthy client to please and had the time to do all this it would be worthwhile.

I recall the criticism of Abu'Mashar's work on solar returns: 'If the astrologer did everything Abu Mashar listed, it would take a year to delineate the chart. I suppose if one only had to work with the King's chart, this isn't such a burden. But for the rest of us ....

Thanks again for your comments.

Tom
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MorningSun



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 233

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:51 am    Post subject: Too much info Reply with quote

Hey Tom,

I agree wholeheartedly!! Sometimes getting mired in too many techniques loses the broader perspective of the reading and you miss what is right in front of your face, and probably what you really need to be telling your client about!

This turned into way more than my simple question. Devore's definition was fine for me. Not the aneretic degrees.

This was just the 0 cardinals, and 6 degress to take note of, I just wondered if anyone found them to be significant is all. Just a short ah, ha, or not.

Way more than what I wanted or needed. But its all good!
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Julie K



Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 378
Location: Australia

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:17 am    Post subject: Critical Degrees Reply with quote

Tom,

I dont like to call in too many techniques - simple is always best for me and I understand the chart better. I do like Solar Returns and have found them predictive but KISS works with everything for me.

As I have my Venus @ 00.58 Cancer partile semi-sextle my Leo Sun the Aries point is also very senstive for me.

Thank you for your advice.

Julie
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1358
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
I've been reading an old text that wants the astrologer to take latitude and declination into account when delineating antiscion and aspects.
Tom


Hello again Tom.
Just to say that in CieloeTerra they consider planets' latitude and declination for every chart.
But why do you think it takes so much time? Solar Fire can calculate parallels and latitude.
And to be honest they consider things more difficult to calculate than this, believe me Wink
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But why do you think it takes so much time? Solar Fire can calculate parallels and latitude.


Hi,

Yes they can calculate, and pinpoint the location, but then the astrologer needs to determine if those positions affect the positions in longitude and if so by how much and from that make a determination as to the strength of the aspect or determine if any aspect exists at all. All of this makes a great deal of sense in theory, but even the astrologers who claimed this was the right way to do it, never bothered with it. They just used longitude.

I'm reading Morin's Book 16 and the translator noted the same thing. Morin goes into excruciating detail about how to determine the strength of an aspect by using precise locations of the planets, but he ignores this in his examples.

My point is not that declination and/or latitude play no role in determining the efficiency of an aspect. It is only that no one really has worked with them and it might be worth looking at. Volunteers?

Tom
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Ed F



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Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I worked with great circle distance aspects (taking into account celestial longitude and latitude) for several years, though not in any systematic way. I did not perceive any improvement wrt event timing over longitudinal aspects. Placidus mundane aspects on the other hand do seem to provide more accurate timing, this conclusion is not based on any systematic approach.

- Ed
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getting back to the topic of critical degress if I may this discussion illustrates how modern astrology can drift unrecognisably from its original sources.

There is no debate that the original Arabic lunar mansions related to a sidereal sytem of 28 mansions defined by particular fixed stars. Christopher Warnock in his excellent book 'Mansions of the Moon' is unambiguous about that.

The original Arabic Lunar mansions equate to the following positions in the tropical zodiac ( 2000 CE positions)

1. Al-Sharatain 3 Taurus to 18 Taurus.
2. Al-Butain 18 Taurus to 29 Taurus.
3. Al-Thuraiya 29 Taurus-10 Gemini.
4. Al-Dabaran 10 Gemini to 24 Gemini.
5. Al-Haqa 24 Gemini to 9 Cancer.
6. Al-Hana 9 Cancer to 20 Cancer.
7. Al-Dhira 20 Cancer to 7 Leo.
8. Al-Nathrah 7 Leo to 18 Leo.
9. Al-Tarf 18 Leo to 28 Leo.
10. Al-Jabhah 28 Leo to 12 Virgo.
11. Al-Zubrah 12 Virgo to 22 Virgo.
12. Al-Sarfah 22 Virgo to 27 Virgo.
13. Al-Awwa 27 Virgo to 24 Libra.
14. Al-Simak 24 Libra to 4 Scorpio.
15. Al Ghafr 4 Scorpio to 15 Scorpio.
16. Al-Zubana 15 Scorpio to 3 Sagittarius.
17. Al-Iklil 3 Sagittarius to 10 Sagittarius.
18. Al-Qalb 10 Sagittarius to 24 Sagittarius.
19. Al-Shaulah 24 Sagittarius to 13 Capricorn.
20. Al-Naaim 13 Capricorn to 16 Capricorn.
21. Al-Baldah 16 Capricorn to 4 Aquarius.
22. Sa'd al-Dhabih 4 Aquarius to 12 Aquarius.
23. Sa'd Bula 12-23 Aquarius.
24. Sa'd al Suud 23 Aquarius to 4 Pisces.
25. Sa'd al-Akhbiyah 4-23 Pisces.
26. Al Fargh al-Awwal 23 Pisces to 9 Aries.
27. Al Fargh al-Thani 9 Aries to 0 Taurus.
28. Batn al-Hut 0-3 Taurus.

(Source: Al-Biruni, 'Book of Instructions in the Elements of Astrology' trans. R. Wright 1934)

Any concept of 'critical degress' during the Arab era would have related to the specific fixed stars marking the different lunar mansions. However, I am not suggesting the modern use of the term originates here. As these mansions were sidereal their position obviously shifted in the tropical zodiac. Moreover they varied in size from 3 to 27 degrees.

However, by the time of Cornelius Agrippa the European astrologers had switched to a set of tropical lunar mansions. Unlike the sidereal mansions these were standardised to approximately twelve degrees and fifty one minutes.


1. Alnath, 0 Aries to 12 Aries 51
2. Allothaim or Albochan 12 Aries 51 to 25 Aries 42
3. Achaomazon or Athoray, 25 Aries 42 to 8 Taurus 34.
4. Aldebaram1 8 Taurus 34 to 21 Taurus 25.
5. Alchatay or Albachay, 21 Taurus 25 to 4 Gemini 17.
6. Alhanna or Alchaya, 4 Gemini 17 to 17 Gemini 8
7. Aldimiach or Alarzach, 17 Gemini 8 to 0 Cancer. 15. Agrapha or Algarpha 0 Libra to 12 Libra 51.
8. Alnaza or Anatchtraya, 0 Cancer to 12 Cancer 51.
9. Archaam or Arcaph, 12 Cancer 51 to 25 Cancer 42
10. Algelioche or Albgebh, 25 Cancer 42 to 8 Leo 34
11. Azobra or Ardurf 8 Leo 34 to 21 Leo 25
12. Alzarpha or Azarpha, 21 Leo 25 to 4 Virgo 17
13. Alhaire, 4 Virgo 17 to 17 Virgo 8
14. Achurethor Arimet 17 Virgo 8 to 0 Libra 22.
15. Agrapha or Algarpha 0 Libra to 12 Libra 51.
16. Azubene or Ahubene 12 Libra 51 to 25 Libra 42.
17. Alchil, 25 Libra 42 to 8 Scorpio 34.
18. Alchas or Altob, 8 Scorpio 34 to 21 Scorpio 25
19. Allatha or Achala3 21 Scorpio 25 to 4 Sagittarius 17
20. Abnahaya, 4 Sagittarius 17 to 17 Sagittarius 8
21. Abeda or Albeldach, 17 Sagittarius 8 to 0 Capricorn
22. Sadahacha or Zodeboluch O Capricorn to 12 Capricorn
23. Zabadola or Zobrach, 12 Capricorn 51 to 25 Capricorn 42
24. Sadabath or Chadezoad, 25 Capricorn 42 to 8 Aquarius 34
25. Sadalbracha or Sadalachia, 8 Aquarius 34 to 21 Aquarius 25
26. Alpharg or Phragol Mocaden, 21 Aquarius 25 to 4 Pisces 17
27. Alcharya or Alhalgalmoad, 4 Pisces 17 to 17 Pisces 8
28. Albotham or Alchalcy, 17 Pisces 8 to 0 Aries

(Source: Cornelius Agrippa, Three Books of Occult Philosophy, Book Two, Chapter 33)


So how do we get from here to the modern idea of critical degrees?

The first modern astrologer I am aware of utilising this concept is the American astrologer Ivy Goldstein Jacobson in her book 'Simplified Horary Astrology' (1960).

Ivy Goldstein Jacobson indicated that the degrees marking the boundaries between tropical Lunar Mansions were critical. The critical Lunar Mansion degrees she identifies are: 0 degrees, 12 degrees 51', and 25 degrees 43' of Cardinal signs; 8 degrees 34' and 21 degrees 26' of Fixed signs; and 4 degrees 17' and 17 degrees 09' of Mutable signs.

However, crucially Ivy Goldstein Jacobson also suggested that degrees on the boundary of zodiac signs were also 'critical'. Hence the emphasis she gives 0 and 29 degrees.

I don't know if Jacobson actually originated the term 'anaretic degree' in her book. I will need to consult it.

I am assuming Jacobson drew inspiration from from Vivian Robson's book 'Fixed Stars and Constellations in Astrology' (1923) which discusses lunar mansions. Of course she may have consulted older sources. William Lilly does not use this concept in Christian Astrology (1647) However, they are discussed by William Ramesey in his book Astrologia Restaurata (Astrology Restored) (1653) although his focus is exclusively electional astrology. Still, I do not see a traditional basis for the emphasis on the 0 and 29th degree as 'critical degrees'. No doubt other modern ideas have got mixed up here too such as the Uranian astrology concept of the 'Aries Point', which emphasises the importance of zero degrees of all the cardinal signs.

I am not aware if Jacobson had read Lilly's Christian Astrology as copies must have been very scarce when she wrote her book. However, if she did one additional possibility is that she was influenced by the traditional horary 'considerations before judgement' against reading charts when the ascendant was in the early or late degrees of a sign or when the Moon was in late degrees. If so perhaps the modern idea of an 'anaretic degree' could have its origin in a diluted version of these horary rules.

Jacobson's ideas seem to have become very popular with modern astrologers:

http://www.cafeastrology.com/criticaldegrees.html


Last edited by Mark on Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:34 pm; edited 5 times in total
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There is no debate that the original Arabic lunar mansions related to a sidereal sytem of 28 mansions defined by particular fixed stars. Christopher Warnock in his excellent book 'Mansions of the Moon' is unambiguous about that.


that I know of, Warnock is using nowadays only the tropical mansions. He has been very criticed by "siderealist" mansion followers, but I agree with him. It is a clear matter of essence vs matter.
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Yuzuru,

Your perfectly correct Christopher Warnock does favour the tropical Lunar Mansions. I dont think he has ever done anything else. As far as I am concerned he is entitled to follow whatever system he wants.

I think his interest in medieval magic using the tropical lunar mansions is part of the reason for this.

My only disappointment with his book is he gives too little space for those like myself more interested in a sidereal approach ( to Lunar mansions that is!). Some might think it odd favouring a sidereal lunar mansion while using a tropical zodiac. However, as I see it the mansions are a lunar zodiac while the tropical zodiac is a zodiac determined by the Sun. Thus I have recently been experimenting with sidereal lunar zodiacs. The Nakshatras (Indian Lunar Mansions) are another example which I think can be very accurate. However, the original Arabic lunar mansions ( like those of the Chinese) seem tied to a very old tradition of star lore due to the variable size of the mansions.

Anyway, I think my basic point that sidereal Arabic lunar mansions came first is really not in dispute.
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