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Morin & Mortality

 
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mattG



Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 345
Location: Greenwich UK

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:45 pm    Post subject: Morin & Mortality Reply with quote

The natives of J-B Morin's example charts often come to unpleasant ends but is he using benefit of hindsight to point out the indications? He also says that L8 in Hse one is bad news if combined with a dodgy looking 12th house. What would one advise a living native with such aspects? Do not take job at Broadmoor Secure Hospital I suppose.

I am not asking out of idle curiosity. A workmate asked me for her birthchart and asked what was significant. I could not help noticing JU retro in AQ conjunct Moon. 8th hse cusp right at start of Cancer and 3rd house ruler in twelth. She asked if a natal chart could predict events and volunteered that her cousin had died recently. As she is a young woman I assume the cousin was also young and that the death was a tragic one.

Any thoughts on the interpretation? I did manage to find a more positive thing to say about her seventh house

Matt
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Edward
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Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello matt23z,

would you mind giving the Native's birth data? Otherwise it's quite hard to give proper judgement.

In case of the cousin, you should look at the 3rd and the 8th from the 3rd, hence the 10th, which signifies the death of the cousin. Morin says that it is not the Native's own death (which is 8th), but the cousin's we are concerned with, so don't mix it. But be careful: the 3rd isn't only the Native's cousins, but also his siblings if he has any. So it's quite tricky to foretell the cousin's death out of the Nativity, but of course you can try.

By the way, Ali Khayyat offers in his "Judgement of Nativites" an instruction how to determine the time of the father's and of the mother's death. He takes his/her significator and Solar Arc directs it "to the rays of the Infortunes" ( 1 degree = 1 year ). You could do similarly with the cousin.

Greets
Edward


Last edited by Edward on Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you think Morin is bad, you ought to check out John Worsdale.

Elsewhere on this forum, we briefly discussed the doom and gloom stuff:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3508



Quote:
Morin interprets the Council of Trent's Rule 9 of the Index of Prohibited Books and the Bull of Sixtus V of 1586 as condemning only the prediction of fortuitious events and those contingent upon human free will.


It seems by working with the bad stuff he was doing a little CYA work. It is also true that death, for traditional astrologers anyway, is unambiguous. The native died or he didn't, and so the astrologer demonstrating something as unambiguous as death thought he was giving the best possible examples of the power of his art. Worsdale was once asked by a woman to look at the chart of her relative. Worsdale said the chart was of a person who already died. His client said she only did this to check Worsdale's abilities. Mr. Worsdale then inquired as the birth data of the client and when she gave it to her, her told her she had less than 7 years to live. Don't mess with John. [And to answer the obvious question: we don't know. The client was "scheduled" to die in 1832 or so and Worsdale himself died about 1828 =sigh=]

Published astrologers mostly use hindsight astrology. Lilly, for example, has only one horary chart in CA where the outcome was not known at the time of publication (he got it right). An author is trying to persuade readers of the correctness of his position, so he takes well known examples to make his case. It would not be too persuasive to pick the chart of an unknown person, make a spectacular prediction and leave the reader forever wondering whether or not it came true. Yes it is hindsight astrology, but there are few other choices.

Just about the only astrology book I am aware of that consisted entirely of yet to occur events was written by Noel Tyl Predictions for the New Milenium or something like that. Yes he got a lot of them wrong, but he had the guts to put it in print well before the events. We have to respect that.

Without chart data it is impossible to answer your other question. What to tell her? What did she want to know? She is going to die. We all are. Lord 1 in 8 especially on the cusp, can be an indication of an early death, but no one would predict such a thing on that basis alone. Astrology is not that formulaic. I use things like that as a possible indication of self destructive behavior which could range from simple diffidence to drug use to being a daredevil. I recently saw the chart of a man who liked to take vacations in war zones that indicated self destructive behavior. He did it once too often.

One more note on Morin and the 12th house. To my knowledge he is the only authoritative astrologer to use the 12th house to signify illness, which is usually left to the 6th. So combining the 12th and 8th would indicate death from illness described by the 6th or 12th. As to when that would happen, he would have used primary directions and solar returns to determine it.

Tom
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Martin Gansten
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Joined: 05 Jul 2008
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Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edward wrote:
By the way, Ali Khayyat offers in his "Judgement of Nativites" an instruction how to determine the time of the father's and of the mother's death. He takes his/her significator and Solar Arc directs it "to the rays of the Infortunes" ( 1 degree = 1 year ).

These are not solar arc directions, but (some variety of) primary directions. The degrees involved are not zodiacal, but ascensional. Solar arc directions came some 800 years after al-Khayyat; see the discussion at:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2817
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Deb
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Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
One more note on Morin and the 12th house. To my knowledge he is the only authoritative astrologer to use the 12th house to signify illness, which is usually left to the 6th.


Hi Tom,

I don't have time to look for suitable quotes at the moment, but I have seen plenty more references to the 12th house signifying illness, from classical to renaissance texts. Some authors may not have been as clear or specific as Morin, but probably because it was so widely understood as the house of infirmity (or as Lilly says, the house of "all manner of affliction"). Of course I am speaking about a significator in the 12th describing a state of weakness or affliction by illness, which is different from the use of these houses in decumbiture where we tend to take signification of the disease from the 6th house alone. Is that what you are referring to here - that Morin took signification of the disease from the 12th instead of, or as well as, the 6th?
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Edward
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Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Edward wrote:
By the way, Ali Khayyat offers in his "Judgement of Nativites" an instruction how to determine the time of the father's and of the mother's death. He takes his/her significator and Solar Arc directs it "to the rays of the Infortunes" ( 1 degree = 1 year ).

These are not solar arc directions, but (some variety of) primary directions. The degrees involved are not zodiacal, but ascensional. Solar arc directions came some 800 years after al-Khayyat; see the discussion at:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2817


It's good you make a point on this. I have overread the author's note of "primary zodiacal directions". Of course, these are not pure primary directions, but a variety of them, as giving 1 degree 1 year.

Personally, I suppose that the idea and use of Solar Arcs is much much older than sometimes is said, because it's the same simple principle like "1 degree = 1 certain time unit" in Horary. And if even Ali Khayyat mentioned this "1 degree = 1 year" rule? But let's not debate on this here.

Greets
Edward
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mattG



Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 345
Location: Greenwich UK

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Ed and Tom. The data is 24 Sept 1985 9a.m Southport Australia 153e25 27s58. Asc 4 56' sag. Yes I should of course have turned the chart. I know Morin was aware of Abu Ali's work and I like him too. Worsdale will be on my wishlist but I am not quite up to Solar Arcs and such stuff just yet but I am told that they are a good tool

Matt
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hi Tom,

I don't have time to look for suitable quotes at the moment, but I have seen plenty more references to the 12th house signifying illness, from classical to renaissance texts. Some authors may not have been as clear or specific as Morin, but probably because it was so widely understood as the house of infirmity (or as Lilly says, the house of "all manner of affliction"). Of course I am speaking about a significator in the 12th describing a state of weakness or affliction by illness, which is different from the use of these houses in decumbiture where we tend to take signification of the disease from the 6th house alone. Is that what you are referring to here - that Morin took signification of the disease from the 12th instead of, or as well as, the 6th?


I believe you. Like you've I've seen references that could well be interpreted as linking the 12th to "illness." It is, after all, the house of confinement. Morin was more pointed about it, however. He frequently cites his own chart, which has several planets in the 12th and his own illnesses as "proof" of the accuracy of his claim. He was a physician and probably did decumbiture charts, but I haven't come across any in his writing.

In The Cabal of the Twelve Houses Astrological, Morin uses the four angles of the natal chart and ties the houses trine to each angle to four ages of man. The fourth triplicity of houses is the 4th house, 12th, and 8th. He writes:

Quote:
The fourth triplicity is that of the dark angle (in the middle of the night or bottom of heaven) called the fourth house, and the Cave or Den of the Planets, attributed to old age and termed the Triplicity of Passion, Affliction, and Death. whereunto every man is subject, for the sin of Adam. The other two houses of the Triplicity are the 12 and the 8. ...

The second affliction consists in the hatred, deceits, Machinations treacherousness and Injuries of Enemies especially secret ones. So likewise is Prisons, Servitude Poverty and all other miseries a man suffereth in his whole lifetime. Now for that these are are enemies to life, therefore they are contained under the only consideration of an enemy in the 12th house which is truly called the valley of miseries and immediately followeth in this Triplicity according to the motion of the equator.


So anything that afflicted man or threatened him, particularly if it were from a secret source belongs to the 12th and that includes disease. In his other writings I've noticed he is more insistent on this delineation than I've noticed in others, however, as Deb points out, he is not unique in this respect.

Tom
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edward,

Quote:
It's good you make a point on this. I have overread the author's note of "primary zodiacal directions". Of course, these are not pure primary directions, but a variety of them, as giving 1 degree 1 year.

Primary directions are based precisely on the idea of a degree for a year, so I don't quite follow you here. There were two modes of directing in use in al-Khayyat's time: by oblique ascension ('ascensions of the region') or by proportional semiarcs. I don't know which was favoured by al-Khayyat, but in either case he would have equated one degree of ascension with one year of life. Solar arcs are calculated by secondary motion (ecliptical degrees), not by primary motion (ascensional degrees). As far as I know, that technique was invented by Kepler in the 17th century.
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Edward
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Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Edward,

Quote:
It's good you make a point on this. I have overread the author's note of "primary zodiacal directions". Of course, these are not pure primary directions, but a variety of them, as giving 1 degree 1 year.

Primary directions are based precisely on the idea of a degree for a year, so I don't quite follow you here. There were two modes of directing in use in al-Khayyat's time: by oblique ascension ('ascensions of the region') or by proportional semiarcs. I don't know which was favoured by al-Khayyat, but in either case he would have equated one degree of ascension with one year of life. Solar arcs are calculated by secondary motion (ecliptical degrees), not by primary motion (ascensional degrees). As far as I know, that technique was invented by Kepler in the 17th century.


Hello Martin,

so if Solar Arcs are a very simplified form of Primary Directions, it would be quite suprising for me if Solar Arcs hadn't been "invented" earlier (possibly under a different name). I'm pretty sure most of the traditional astrologers preferred simplicity if given the choice: you must imagine a world without computers. Ancient astrologers had to calculate their horoscopes by hand, no devices other than their ephemeris, and so were encouraged much more to think with their heads. Nonetheless they were accurate enough for their purposes.

Just my two cents,
Edward
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edward wrote:
so if Solar Arcs are a very simplified form of Primary Directions, it would be quite suprising for me if Solar Arcs hadn't been "invented" earlier (possibly under a different name). I'm pretty sure most of the traditional astrologers preferred simplicity if given the choice: you must imagine a world without computers. Ancient astrologers had to calculate their horoscopes by hand, no devices other than their ephemeris, and so were encouraged much more to think with their heads. Nonetheless they were accurate enough for their purposes.

Well, prepare to be surprised. Wink The sort of simplification you have in mind is in fact quite modern. There were simple 'symbolic directions' (profections), but no solar arcs. Ancient astrologers were more aware than their modern counterparts of astronomical realities such as the primary motion. Directions were calculated by this motion -- often using simplified methods, but not solar arcs, which have nothing to do with the primary motion.
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Ellie Fant



Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 8
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to drop a chart into the midst of this very interesting discussion.
Today I heard the news that one of my friends has just been diagnosed with inoperable cancer. With chemo, the drs. give her 1-3 years. I would really like to know the markers for this event in her chart.

January 8th, 1955
14:08 PST
Bakersfield, California

I can see some indicators but, to me, it isn't that clear. Right now my sadness is affecting my judgement and I'd appreciate some other opinions.

Ellie
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chrysalis



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 8

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry to hear of your friends illness and diagnosis. This must be an incredibly difficult time for both of you. My thoughts are with you both.

The indications of illness in the progressed chart are: the natal 6th house ruler Venus, now having moved to 28 Capricorn,has been progressing over her natal ascendant ruler Mercury and has now reached an opposition with her progressed ascending degree, which has reached 27 Cancer. Her progressed ascendant has also just entered the terms of Saturn.

For fans of Solar Arc Directions, her natal 6th ruler Venus by Solar Arc is nearly exactly over her natal Ascendant ruler Mercury at 26.36 Capricorn, within a minute.
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