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Quincunx YES or NO

 
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Night Sky



Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 127

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:17 am    Post subject: Quincunx YES or NO Reply with quote

The Ptolemic aspects are as far as I know the major ones + semi-sextile and quincunx.

In Horary you use the Ptolemic aspects.

I am wondering if they are used or not? What is the general consensus?
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 800

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To my knowledge only the conjunction, sextile, trine, square, and opposition are used in horary, not the others. Lilly mentions them in Christian Astrology, but only in passing and without much seeming interest in pursuing them beyond that.

GH Smile
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Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only 5 Ptolemaic aspects are used in horary (conj.,sextile, square, trine, opposition).

Deb has written an excellent article on this : http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects.html

Tara
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Quincunx or Inconjunct is like looking through a bent tube. The parties do not see 'eye to eye'. The quincunx is a 'no' due to the pieces not fitting, unless there is a reception or a mediating planet that will carry the aspect from the one planet to the other by translation.
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with all the previous comments. Just wanted to add that an additional exception when you would consider planets forming an inconjunct being connected is if they are linked on an antiscion degree. However, this is more despite the inconjunct rather than because of it.
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
MarkC said:
Just wanted to add that an additional exception when you would consider planets forming an inconjunct being connected is if they are linked on an antiscion degree.

We might want to explore this comment a little bit further. Two planets inconjunct and joined by antiscia would require the planets to be equal distance of the solitice points, which only occurs across the board 15AR-15VI and 15LI-15PI. However, are inconjunctions cast from ie. Aries to Virgo, as signes on a whole, supposed to be interpreted differently because the aspect occurs in 'Signes that See Eachother'?

More so, how to we interpret the inconjunct cast between Taurus and Libra or Scorpio and Aries? In comparison I have often compared the square between Gemini and Virgo with a right and a left hand glove, or the square between Sagittarius and Pisces to be that a right and left boot. The combination Taurus and Libra, which both are ruled by Venus, are per interpretation 'breast to breast' but opposites by gender, and in the same sense Aries and Scorpio is more like 'butt to butt', or whatever... Confused

On the other hand, any relationship between the signs of ie Gemini and Scorpio would tend to show the circumstances of people wide apart. My point being that inconjunct relationships also can be described with regard of their qualitive differences.
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Andrew,

No time to develop this point right now. However, I refer you to Lee Lehman's book 'Classical Astrology for Modern living' where chapter 9 is entitled ' When a quincunx (or semi-sextile) is not inconjunct''
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
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Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haven't got it. Isn't on my booklist. Can't follow you on that one, Mark. Confused
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Andrew,

Sorry there might be quite a delay replying on this as I am quite busy at the mo. I will clarify this when I get some time.

Mark
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
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Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to 'Night Sky'. The consensus is not to use them, but Lilly does have an example in Christian Astrology where he interprets a semi-sextile cast through signs of long ascension as if were a sextile.
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cosmicdolphin



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew

I have read that

" An inconjunction indicates that circumstances will have to change before an answer is available to the question of whether you will get the perfect position of employment this month." This was taken from example I believe astrologyweekly.com

cheers
CD
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Andrew,

You were right to pick up my reference to antiscion and inconjunct as rather muddled.

Having re-read Lee Lehman's book and Deb's article on Antiscia I think the point I want to make in essence is this:

The classical view is that planets could only 'behold' or 'see' each other through the ptolemaic aspects or through antiscion/contra-antiscion degrees.

Therefore, planets that are 1 sign or 5 signs apart are not always 'inconjunct'. All the classical authors suggest these planets can indeed behold each other if they are linked through an antiscion or contra-antiscion degree.

For example here is Firmicus on that issue:

''For when they send an antiscion in such a way that they are in aspect through the antiscion, in trine, square, sextile, or opposition, they portend just as if they were thus located in the normal arrangement.''

The signs in Antiscion relation are:

Gemini to Cancer and vice versa.
Leo to Taurus and vice versa.
Virgo to Aries and vice versa.
Libra to Pisces and vice versa.
Scorpio to Aquarius and vice versa.
Sagittarius to Capricorn and vice versa.


The Signs in Contra-Antiscion are:

Aries to Pisces and vice versa.
Taurus to Aquarius and vice versa.
Gemini to Capricorn and vice versa.
Libra to Virgo and vice versa.
Scorpio to Leo and vice versa.
Sagittarius to Cancer and vice versa

Note:

1 Antiscion and contra-antiscion links have an element of secrecy and the planets are seen to operate less directly than through ptolemaic aspects

2 Signs linked by Antiscion degree operate like a conjunction or trine.

3 Signs linked by contra-antiscion degree operate like an square or opposition.

4 The 'orb' for an antiscion or contra-antiscion is usually 1 degree. Maximum 2 degrees.

5 An easy way to know if two planets separated by 1 sign or 5 signs apart are inconjunct is whether a fixed sign is involved. The involvement of a fixed sign is always an indication of signs that never behold each other and are therefore 'inconjunct'. For example: Gemini and Scorpio or Aquarius and Cancer.
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cosmicdolphin



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 730

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

THANK YOU MARKC

you solved my problem with antiscias

CD
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The combination Taurus and Libra, which both are ruled by Venus, are per interpretation 'breast to breast' but opposites by gender, and in the same sense Aries and Scorpio is more like 'butt to butt', or whatever...


Thats an interesting point. From my reading it seems some hellenistic astrologers thought the condition of aversion ( being inconjunct) could be cancelled out or at least mitigated in three ways:

1 Signs of 'like-engirding' ( Same ruler)

2 Signs of equal power ( Antiscia)

3 Signs of commanding or obeying relationship ( Contra-Antiscion)

Presumably in the case of signs that are 'like engirding' such as Taurus-Libra and Scorpio-Aries there would need to be a ptolemaic aspect out of sign e.g. a planet at 29 Scorpio and and 1 Aries.
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