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When a "YES" is a "NO"!
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:50 pm    Post subject: When a "YES" is a "NO"! Reply with quote

Sick

I know, it sounds complicated but here's what confuses me sometimes (among other things Confused ).

I've recently found an interpretation of a horary chart casted for the question that was formulated somewhat like this "Is my relationship/marriage over?". The astrologer kept on and on explaining all the positive aspects and mutual reception between L1 and L7 and all the houses important for the overall picture concluding that it was not over. BUT- the question was not- is there any hope for my marriage/relationship? Honestly, the first thing I would look for in such a chart would be how strog the significators of L1 and L7 are and are there any signs of life for that relationship but, than again, as confusing as it might sound- wouldn't it make sense that, if the aspects say "NO" it's good news for the Querent, because the full answer would be "NO, the marriage is NOT over!". I know I'm making it more complicated than it is Confused Laughing but I've got a slight feeling I'm not the only newby confused by things like this.

Another similar upside-down situation I wouldn't know how to interpret even if I casted the chart concerns retrograde movement and applying/separating aspects for certain type of questions. Let's say, Querent formulates the question like this:"Do I allready know my future husband/wife?" and we find an applying aspect, say conjuction, between L1 and L7- does this mean (again!!! Lala Happy )- "YES- you do (applying aspect between significators is a positive sign an, therefore, the answer is positive) or would it mean:"NO", you are yet to meet that person because the planets are applying to a conjuction. And vice versa, of course, what if they were separating (the matter of past ie- they know each other already or not?)

And what if we find either applying or separatin square between the significators, what would it be telling us? Do they already kknow each other?
Retrograde planets/significators could confuse me here a lot as well (reunion or?).

Hope someone will have enough patience for these questions! Smile
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hiimnotcool



Joined: 02 Sep 2008
Posts: 96

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, you have really great questions. I applaud you for asking because that's the only real way to get better.

In your first example, to the question 'Is my marriage over?' and the significators were applying, then I would take that as a 'yes, the marriage is over'. That is why when you formulate the question it needs to be VERY specific. I've had people ask me 'Will I have a relationship with so and so' and then I'll cast the chart and the answer will usually look like a yes, but of course it does because they already do have somewhat of a relationship. Now I tell people to state specifically what kind of relationship they are referring to when asking the question because that makes all the difference in the world.


In your second scenario, 'Do I already know my wife/husband' and the significators are applying to conjunction, then I would say the answer is 'yes, you do already know your husband/wife'. Applying significators is always generally a pretty positive answer to the question posed. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule.

Good question about the applying/seperating square question. An applying square I would tend to think that they probably do know eachother but there's been some kind of trouble and delay between the two of them. Seperating would be interesting to hear someone more well versed explain.
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, thanx, it was quick and explains everything. And it makes sense (though, it won't make sense to that poor lady who asked about her marriage and got the the wrong answer from the astrologer stating good aspect between L1 and L7 will save her marriage! Sick )

Applying aspect as a sign of a "YES" the two of them already know each other also makes all the sense to me!

Thanks a lot and, don't worry, I'll keep on anoying you! Smile
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 800

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
BUT- the question was not- is there any hope for my marriage/relationship?


But that is, generally speaking, what the person is really asking. I agree that one has to be careful with how questions are presented. It is up to the astrologer, however, to figure out what the querent wants to know; sometimes they think they are asking one thing, but really they are asking something else. This is often the case in love questions.

If the significators are in mutual reception and are applying to an aspect, I, too, would suggest that the marriage was not over with, especially if it's a good aspect. If the significators were in mutual reception and *separating*, this would be stronger testimony that the marriage was over, and it was likely a mutually agreed-upon endeavour. We have to look at what the 'bodies' are doing: coming together? Moving apart? Not doing anything in regard to one another? This often provides the strongest testimony to an answer, regardless of how the question is presented.

GH Smile
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why, thanx, Gunhilde for another perspective, appreciate it a lot!

Than, what would you say for the second situation- questions such as "Do I alredy know my future wife?", "Have I ever been to a house I'll be living in in a future?" etc. Would an applying aspect in such case, for you, be the sign of "Yes, you know him/you've been there" or would you say it is yet to happen regardless of how the question was formulated.

I'm really curious! Smile
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Ema



Joined: 14 Aug 2008
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Location: Slovenia

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If the significators are in mutual reception and are applying to an aspect, I, too, would suggest that the marriage was not over with, especially if it's a good aspect. If the significators were in mutual reception and *separating*, this would be stronger testimony that the marriage was over, and it was likely a mutually agreed-upon endeavour.


Thumbs up Well done Gunhilde Very Happy
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Ema



Joined: 14 Aug 2008
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Location: Slovenia

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Honestly, the first thing I would look for in such a chart would be how strog the significators of L1 and L7 are and are there any signs of life for that relationship but, than again, as confusing as it might sound- wouldn't it make sense that, if the aspects say "NO" it's good news for the Querent, because the full answer would be "NO, the marriage is NOT over!".


It will help you if you imagine planets as people. If they are applying ie. coming to each other, they'll meet (again or depending on the nature of question); if separating, they're going away from each other. It's very simple, actually. I remember a consultation chart presented in a horary book (I think it way Syliva de Long's book) where the client told the astrologer that she was divorcing her husband. Astrologer saw 1st and 7th rulers applying to each other and said, no you're not. And she was right Very Happy
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
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Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"Have I ever been to a house I'll be living in in a future?" etc. Would an applying aspect in such case, for you, be the sign of "Yes, you know him/you've been there" or would you say it is yet to happen regardless of how the question was formulated.


Well, these are rather strange questions, but no question surprises me anymore. Laughing

A lot will depend on receptions. Receptions are very important and can 'make or break' a situation. An applying aspect usually would give a positive answer in these sorts of questions; it would be a stronger testimony if there were receptions between the significators...these imply a certain familiarity with the other person/thing, or an openness to them.

I think the main thing to remember in horary is that there is no such thing as a 'cookie cutter' answer: so there is no straightforward 'this aspect = this answer'. *Everything* in a chart will reflect the context of the question, so a square aspect in one chart will mean something very different than a square in another chart, although most will agree that squares bring certain difficulties with them. Same with receptions; they will mean different things depending on the question.

GH Smile
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I'm getting the picture here - if we see the dog going back home in the chart, we may conclude he'll come back home regardless the fact that the owner had asked "Is my dog lost forever?".

I'm also aware of the fact there's no strict rule in answering life questions in horary as well in the real life, that is, as the matter of fact, why I ask this bunch of different questions trying to put it all together. A bit of mutual receptions, a bit of aspects...a bit of mixing it all up and ending nowhere Lala Happy ... and your answers help a lot.

Now, the moment I thought i was getting at least a bit better and more secure in this,I casted a chart for myself with the question "Will Iget a better position at work or stay where I am (in October)?" and found some new puzzles I never expected to find (you can all laugh as much as you want Lala Happy ). First of all, it's a tricky question because my contract is signed only until mid October and it is hard to even imagine I could stay there at all (though, would like to). The question was asked at 22:56 CET and, if I look at my 6th house as a significator of work- guess what = L1 and L6 are both Mercury and now what? The moon is in VOC which again makes no sense since the things will hardly stay the way they are. Though, the same significator is what confuses me a lot more!

Another thing- if we find two planets in an exact conjuction (say, Venus 18 degrees/30 minutes and Mercury 18 degrees/46 minutes- do we consider it a separating aspect with the "orb" of 16 minutes?
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hiimnotcool



Joined: 02 Sep 2008
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Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Casting your own chart is just a bad idea in general. You're not supposed to do it because traditionally the act of actually putting the question to another astrologer seems to be when the question is 'really' born. I heard it compared to painting a beautiful picture, or writing a beautiful poem, yeah you made it and its good..but it's not really born until other people see it, or other people hear the poem. What good is a painting that isn't seen? My point is, the question is the same way. It needs to be presented to an outside party. I know modern views are that you can ask your own questions, but it's still a bad idea.
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And, this is the second time in two days I'm hearing the same thing. Tahnx! though, there's a very simple reason why I do that- I'm trying to practice and if I'd ask someone else to ask the question, I'm affraid I might do a lot of harm due to my lack of experience and knowledge. on the other hand, asking a professional astrologer to "solve the problem" it not what I want, I'm not really asking for an answer, just the possibility to practice horary astrology. That said, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to try to read charts here on the forum made for the questiones someone else had asked. That way, we'd exclude the dangers that casting the charts for our own questiones brig as you said, and, on the other hand, there are people who are more experienced and who could help us.
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Ema



Joined: 14 Aug 2008
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Location: Slovenia

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Casting your own chart is just a bad idea in general. You're not supposed to do it because traditionally the act of actually putting the question to another astrologer seems to be when the question is 'really' born.


Hi hiimnotcool, please allow me to disagree Wink Horary astrologers very often ask their (our) own questions, and answer them too - I can refer you directly to W.Lilly's CA, for example. or O.Barclays HAR, where you'll find numerous examples of how these learned astrologers casted their own charts. This is the best way to learn, after all. If we didn't do our own horary charts, we'de be like natal astrologers who don't "do" (research etc.) their own charts. Can you imagine that, avoiding your own chart? I don't know how I'd ever master the art of finding lost objects, for example, if it wouldn't be for my numerous "exercises" with trying to locate my lost keys, not to mention dozens of charts which I cast and read to find an answer to my personal query. It's an unavoidable (and simple!) way to gain knowledge!
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kerenhappuch



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 396
Location: UK

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it depends on context.

In the "is this relationship over?" example:

An applying square or opposition with negative mutual reception - this could show things "coming to a head", and hence a break up.

Or - applying to Mars or Uranus - significators of arguments/divorce - again, testimony for separation.

Significators moving out of aspect and into signs with no positive reception - losing interest and moving on.

As Gunhilde says, if there's an applying aspect with positive reception, especially a trine or sextile - or perhaps a conjunction - this would show a coming together in a sympathetic way, indicating a rekindling of the relationship perhaps.

I don't really believe that asking "Is this relationship over?" is much different from "What's going on in my relationship?" or even "Will we stay together?" The chart will show the picture, we as astrologers have to interpret it in context of what we know about the situation.

And as we know, the answer will be shown slightly differently in each chart we cast Wink it's not as simple as "There's an applying aspect, you will/won't stay together". We have to look at the whole chart to get the sense of what the chart is trying to show us.

Just my thoughts.

Keren
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanx to both of you!

But, now- what when the Querent and the Quesited have the same significator?
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stanstar



Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 240
Location: Edinburgh Scotland

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it seems I've been interpreting charts the wrong way. I've always thought that the charts we do always give us the answer to the question exactly as it is put. When someone asks me a horary question I sometimes check with them whether what I think they mean is what they are meaning. For example quite recently a friend of my daughters asked me "Does my husband really NOT love me?" "Are you sure that is the question?" I asked her and I enquired whether her question wasn't does my husband love me. She then explained that he had left her for a much younger woman and that he explained to her that he really didn't love her anymore. So she REALLY wanted to know if what he said was REALLY true. So I drew the chart for 14 March 2008 Edinburgh at 19.34 Asc 8deg40 Libra so she was Venus and he Mars. Venus trines Mars = a YES he really doesn't love you. Moon conjucts Mars another YES. Mars is in its fall in Cancer so he is not in great shape and a little beholding to his wife's heart strings. I gave her the answer that her husband REALLY didn't love her. Again I had another crying lady to console. Did I read the chart correctly? If I had taken the positive aspects at face value and said he did really love her I would NOT have been answering her original question.

Stan[/i]
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