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Interesting Natal chart: want to take a guess?
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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 475

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.
Hi all and thanks for your inputs on this.

I went through each response and picked out the pieces which fit somewhat at some point in his life.

To answer MarkC's question, he is alive!

And for a hint, think more of the traditional meaning of what the 12th house signifies and why would an ordinary person (he's not famous or infamous) have so many planets in their 12th? Also, look at the planets that are in the 12th and how would they help or hurt and also, what houses in the chart do they rule?

Some of the answers here dealt with other houses and aspects of his life and where they fit, I included them. I'll leave it open a while longer to see if it comes together better now. Very Happy

Ellie Fant wrote:
Something is off about Jupiter. It rules the intercept in the 4th and the 7th and 8th cusps and opposes the 7th so I would say this person has difficulty in all their relationships and brings crisis into their own lives.
...
The Asc. is weakened by it ruler being in the 12th. I think this is significant. I don't know this person at all but having such a 12th house with personal planets occupying makes me wonder whether anyone would ever really know them very well.
.

MarkC wrote:

A peregrine Mars in the 1st forms a separating dexter sextile to a debilitated Saturn in the 11th house. In signs of long ascension it may operate more like a square. Plus Sun/Pluto conjunction power could imply power misuse or abuse issues?

MorningSun wrote:
I can come up with quite a few careers for this person to name a few ...
, traveling in out of the way places.
...
Not too fond of women, or a lot of arguments with them, very cool towards them, harsh, biting and nit-picking (critical), also with friends and family.
...
analytical.
..
self-confident, and wholly believes in himself.

MorningSun wrote:
I forgot to add all the obvious, 12 house designations, prison guard , or administrative position in that prison, .

MarkC wrote:
An additional thought which ties in with the Mars in the first and all the 12th house emphasis would be a soldier who was killed in action, POW or MIA. Alternatively someone involved in 'covert operations'.

However, we haven't even been told if this person is alive or dead! Sad

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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
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Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If he isn't famous or infamous, RC, then how are we supposed to know who he is?

Confused GH
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MorningSun



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 233

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RC,

Okay, I think I have it! Here goes!

Okay, with Sag intercepted in the 4th, Mars being Lord of the 4th and angular, his father was a military man, probably in Europe in World War II. So part of his childhood possibly was moving around to different countries, due to his fatherís position in the Military.

Mars rules the 4th and 9th houses, so travel to foreign countries is prominent in his chart, as well as at some time in his life living abroad in another country or countries.

Being that Mars is in Virgo and rules the 9th house, his position would be more as an analyst for the Government (all those planets in Leo, and Mars angular (prominent) ruling the 9th house of governments, in addition to Jupiter
so prominent, diurnal in Sect and angular, ruling the 7th & 8th house, in the sign of Pisces, showing compassion for other people and their property, wanting to be the protector of both, he could work for the Government, either in a Military capacity or for the Government providing military strategy or private security or an intelligence officer in the Military. It would be an analyst or gathering and organizing information in a covert way on other countries. I think thatís it!!

His career is unusual and probably also is the cause of his travels in far away places.

So here goes!! Just an after thought, Also due to his temperament and disposition towards women, he most likely spent some time in jail due to a woman.
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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 475

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gunhilde wrote:
If he isn't famous or infamous, RC, then how are we supposed to know who he is?

Confused GH

Hi Gunhilde:
The question was whether you could look at this individual's chart and tell what his chart indicated.

MorningStar,

His father was exempted from military service due to diabetes.

RC
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MorningSun



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
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Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, I'm about ready to give up!! Okay, so 12th house is the house of the self's own undoing and self-sacrifice, all things hidden and secret.

All the personal planets are there. To an extent, his personal life is kept hidden, so to speak. Not entirely, most planets are above the horizon, so he is "in" the world and "out" there.

Now until Pres. Bush became President, I believe most astrologers thought a 12th house Sun was doomed. NOT SO, says Bush's chart!

Although he does have quite a lot of actions in the background and in secret. Which I am assuming also of our mystery person! A lot goes on behind the scenes, mostly his personal life.

He is self directed as far as running his own life, and confident of his abilities and more so with the Pluto/Sun conjunction, of power issues, and thinking he IS the authority so hence the power struggles.


So I GIVE UP!! There are so many possibilities as their are people!

Can't wait to see how this ends though! Good One RC!
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MorningSun



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
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Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, I'm about ready to give up!! Okay, so 12th house is the house of the self's own undoing and self-sacrifice, all things hidden and secret.

All the personal planets are there. To an extent, his personal life is kept hidden, so to speak. Not entirely, most planets are above the horizon, so he is "in" the world and "out" there.

Now until Pres. Bush became President, I believe most astrologers thought a 12th house Sun was doomed. NOT SO, says Bush's chart!

Although he does have quite a lot of actions in the background and in secret. Which I am assuming also of our mystery person! A lot goes on behind the scenes, mostly his personal life.

He is self directed as far as running his own life, and confident of his abilities and more so with the Pluto/Sun conjunction, of power issues, and thinking he IS the authority so hence the power struggles.


So I GIVE UP!! There are so many possibilities as their are people!

Can't wait to see how this ends though! Good One RC!
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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 475

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all:

Okay, I'll try a couple more hints and then post the answer tomorrow if you all want.

Hints:

Examination of a couple of fixed stars which stand out in this chart for his birth time help define his future.

Also, the most important planets here to analyze would be Jupiter and Mars.

Smile
RC
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Mark
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok lets summarise the 'hints' from RC so far:

Quote:
And for a hint, think more of the traditional meaning of what the 12th house signifies and why would an ordinary person (he's not famous or infamous) have so many planets in their 12th? Also, look at the planets that are in the 12th and how would they help or hurt and also, what houses in the chart do they rule?

Examination of a couple of fixed stars which stand out in this chart for his birth time help define his future. Also, the most important planets here to analyze would be Jupiter and Mars.


Ok lets look at a totally 'traditional' view of the 12tth house as RC suggests:

Quote:
''It hath signification of private enemies, of witches, great cattle - as horses, oxen, elephants, &c.; sorrow, tribulation, imprisonments, all manner of affliction, self-undoing, &c., and of such men as maliciously undermine their neighbours, or inform secretly against them.
It hath cosignificators Pisces and Venus; Saturn doth much joy in that house, for naturally Saturn is author of mischief; and it ruleth in man's body the feet. In colour it presents the green. It's a cadent house, feminine, and vulgarly sometimes called cataphora, as all cadent houses may be.'' ( Christian Astrology, William Lilly p56)


We probably differ here as you use modern rulerships and do not use exaltation and triplicity rulers I imagine. However, sticking with domicile rulers: Mercury rules 1st and 2nd , Venus rules 10th and 3rd, Sun rules 12th house.

In terms of fixed star connections the most obvious are Regulus on Jupiter/MC and the Moon on the malefic star Algorab in the constellation of Corvus the Crow.

Quote:
Regulus on Jupiter: Fame, high preferment, especially of a military nature, success in the Church.

Regulus on Ascendant: Great honor and wealth, but violence and trouble, sickness, fevers, acute disease, benefits seldom last, favour of the great, victory over enemies and scandal. The 145th Consideration of Guido Bonnati is as follows: -" That thou see in Diurnal Nativities whether Regulus be in the Ascendant, that is to say, in the Oriental Line or above it one degree or below it three degrees; or whether it be in the tenth in like degrees, without the Conjunction or Aspect of any of the Fortunes, for this alone signifies that the Native shall be a person of great note and power, too much exalted, and attain to high preferment and honors, although descended from the meanest parents. And, if any of the Fortunes behold that place also, his glory shall be the more increased;


Quote:
Algorab: According to Ptolemy, Algorab is of the nature of Mars and Saturn and gives destructiveness, malevolence, fiendishness, repulsiveness and lying, and is connected with scavenging. (Vivian Robson).

A Mars-Saturn star that can show up the more troublesome side of Libra, a variation on the truth when an excuse looks to be safer. (The Living Stars , Dr. Eric Morse).

Delays and restraint are indicated to come about by fiascoes, losses, wrong handling of matters and enmity in general. Accidents or injuries, difficult to avoid. (Fixed Stars and Their Interpretation , Elsbeth Ebertin, 1923)


Accidents and injuries seem a theme here. Saturn is ruling the 6th house and in a weakened state by sign yet in a good house and Jupiter is forming a dexter sextile to it. Probably someone who has made the best of injury or illness? Maybe going back to the Mars connection a veteran of Vietnam? (Mars rules the 9th house) Mars -square Uranus -sudden acccidents/injuries abroad?

One last slightly way out thought is someone in the sex industry. Why? Well Venus is the MC ruler in the 12th. The 5th house ruler Saturn is debilitated which emphasises some unconventional expression of sexuaity that may be of profit all the same ( in the lucky 11th house + Jupiter aspect). The Mars-Saturn aspect plus the Pluto/Sun conjunction all have issues around control and power. Although there is an overtone of aggression. Jupiter the traditional indicator of wealth is in detriment and mercury second house ruler in the 12th. This indicates income from hidden and unconventional means. I suspect this is not the kind of thing you would post on the Net so perhaps I am getting rather carried away.....

These are the more colourful interpretations. A Prison guard in a Womens Prison would be somewhat predictable but more safe I guess.

I better stop now. The permutations are endless.

Now put us out of our misery RC and prove how totally wrong we all are!
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MorningSun



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC

It's interesting we both came up with many of the same interpretations! I also think there is some sort of income derived from sexual themes as I mentioned porno film director.

In addition I also considered some sort of handicap, however did not mention it, but I see you did. Also the military theme was a real possibility, as well as some sort of confinement, severe restriction in the life.

Can't wait to see how this shakes out and for the big reveal! Great job on the fixed star interpretation!
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I also think there is some sort of income derived from sexual themes as I mentioned porno film director.


Sorry I wasn't copying you. I got so caught up in the chart I didn't even notice you had said that. Very Happy

Well lets hope one of us has hit the nail on the head somewhere or we will both be eating humble pie on Friday. Thumbs up Thumbs down
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MorningSun



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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark,

It did not even enter my mind regarding copying, at all. If our trade is good, we all should be saying the same thing, according to the rules of Astrology, right? But there are so many rules, and considerations!!

It is a good sign, that two astrologers interpreted it the same way, don't you think? It is also some sort of confirmation for me anyway, that my interpretation is in line with what you saw! Astrology can be a tricky business, and fraught with little nuances, we all said pretty much the traditional readings for the chart configuration, which is a good thing?? Maybe, we will soon find out, and if we are all wrong, then we all need to go back and (tweak) change some of the accepted manifestations of the planets, houses and aspects!

Lets hope we are close!
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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 475

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay,

Here it is:

Alcyone-Pleidas, the weeping sisters at 29 Taurus (at the year of his birth 1944) conjuncts his 10th cusp; His fate/career was "something to weep about" and its ruler, is in the 12th house of sorrows and enemies. (He actually retired twice, from two different jobs. Gemini intercepted in 10th house, his 2nd job which he also retired from.)

The most prominent planets in his chart for the issues I was looking at are Jupiter and Mars. Jupiter being right on his ASC was most important probably in affecting his life and Mars is also close to his ASC. These two planets appear to be working together in his life.

Notably, at his birth, Mars of war & military had just passed over Jupiter which is in detriment. Both are on/near his ASC. The 7th house stands for many things but here it represents war & open enemies, so Jupiter in detriment on his ASC showed he would go to war in service(Virgo) to his country. Mars of war/military matters having just passed over Jupiter & Jupiter conjunct Regulus, of military matters on his ASC, all point to this. His career was indeed "something to weep about".

His background:
Before he was 18, he lied about his age to enter the Army. Some months later feeling he was not being challenged enough, he transferred to the Marine Corp. feeling it had a more impressive/tougher image. (His Leo showing) Later, he wrote many letters home threatening to run away and go AWL because it was far more brutal than he had imagined. But he finally managed to get through it, probably because his base was surrounded by swampland which made it pretty much impossible to get away. Some did try back in those days never to be heard of again. Marine boot camp in later years was reformed so as to make it less of a horror for the young men.

After completing boot camp and other training, he was later deployed to Vietnam and served in active combat as a machine gunner. After completing his tour he came home - without any injury. Then for some crazy reason, wanting to go back into action, he volunteered for a 2nd term. He didn't have to go! Crazy huh? He later confessed that when he volunteered for the 2nd term, he truly thought he would not be coming home. Perhaps a death wish? I had heard there was actually a medical term for soldiers who came back feeling compelled to return to combat.

During that second term, he drove a military supply truck to the embedded troop stations to keep them equipped with artillery.

The 12th house rules enemies as well as other things that were mentioned in the replies here. When I first saw his chart, my first reaction was to wonder how or why a regular person (not a criminal etc.) would have so many enemies? Then when looking at Jupiter & Mars it all fit perfectly.

Regulus on his Asc, he was promoted rapidly, receiving accommodations. After his tours of duty were over, he worked several years as a "gunny Sergeant" a/k/a drill instructor. (He took on the same position of that which he loathed as a new recruit.) He rose as high as his education level would allow. He never finished high school. After several years as a 'gunny', he taught weapons and worked on the firing range instructing the soldiers in weapons, target practice, tanks, etc. until he retired.

Other 12th house matters fit him as well:

After the war was over for a time, he was in charge of the marine brig
(military jail) and after he left the military, he was also a prison guard (for men) for a while until he found steady employment with a foreign owned company in the U.S. operating heavy equipment like bulldozers and such.

The benefic planets in the 12th, though they didn't keep him out of *enemy territory*, they no doubt gave him protection. Benefics in the 12th do not prevent the 12th house matters from occurring but they reduce their harm and bring protection. He never received any injuries from his service.

Just to give one example of how these benefics gave protection:

A spy that had been put in charge of detonating roadside bombs to blow up any military vehicles passing a particular road, misunderstood her orders, thinking she was supposed to only blow up "jeeps". She watched
from her hiding post as his supply truck delivered several truck loads of weaponry before she was caught. When interrogated, she explained she had been waiting on "jeeps". If not for her misunderstanding her orders, he would have been blown up.

These benefics have protected him repeatedly in other 12th house matters as well which I won't go into here.

Since many commented on his personal side;

He has a good sense of humor, easily laughs at situations and itís quite infectious. He has a very unique way of seeing humor in situations others might not have noticed and then making it hysterically funny in a contagious way. He has a natural comedic ability.

At the same time, I don't think anyone really knows him. He is somewhat introverted. He likes to keep his home quiet and private (his Leo
castle). So he hates it when his wife's relatives all pile in but is a good host once forced into it. However he still stays in touch with his old friends from the military however and has kept his friends and sees them occasionally so he's not anti social - just likes his privacy and is overall a quiet, reserved person except with those he knows well.

His favorite movies are horror films (the older kind, not the gorey kind they make nowdays). He always got a kick out of being scared. On the other end of the scale, one of his favorite t.v. shows is the "Dog Whisperer" probably because he loves animals - especially dogs.

He married at about age 20 to a "good girl" ( he was old fashioned that way - she had to be a good girl). They are still married today. They had two children. His first born, a son, looking up to him, joined the marines and served in the Gulf War. Unlike his father however, he got out after coming home.

I'll leave it at that since the main focus was on the 12th house and what it showed.

Hope his story wasn't too boring after all the mystery! You guys were getting close. And some of you saw the military connection, and MarkC mentioned the possibility of a veteran.

It was fun!
RC Very Happy
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MorningSun



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RC,

That was really, really wonderful write-up!! Sounds like a great guy and a wonderful friend of yours, one to be treasured, as I am sure you do!

I want to thank you for that exercise, I really enjoyed it and it is another reminder why I always tell my clients that Astrology is not being psychic, and there are a million possible combinations! I also ask them about their current situation and tell them the more I know their situation and what they want to hone in on, the better I can help them.
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello RC,

Thanks for sharing all that. A very interesting excercise. Some useful lessons for me here. I am not a professional and haven't done that many natal charts. My experience is more in horary. I therefore value the chance to let rip like this.

One thing I can see I overdid was the essential dignities at the expense of the accidental dignities. That is a useful lesson for natal study. Also the natural significations of the planets are always important. Jupiter as ruler of the 7th on the ASC did support his 'good' wife. I got too hung up on the planet in detriment.

12th house was of course the house of secret enemies and with 20/20 vision that was always a possibility. However, the 7th as in its role as open enemies was something that didn't occur to me.

One thing I would not interpret quite the same is the 'protection' the person seemed to have. Most traditionalists would see Jupiter on the angle like that as actually in the 1st house not the 12th. I think the Jupiter trine the MC from the ASC helps to explain a lot of these lucky escapes you mention. I have Jupiter on the ASC myself doing this and I sometimes feels I have a guardian angel pulling me out of difficult situations. Of course in this chart the planet was closely conjunct Regulus which no doubt added to that consideration.

More than anything I am really rather embarrased I missed the MC on the Pleiades!!! I have been making a study of fixed stars so that was quite an omission. Unfortunately, I was relying on memory when checking the degrees. As its now 00 Gemini I just looked there forgetting about the effects of precession. Too much horary vs natal!
While the standard 'something to cry' about interpretation of this star is quite helpful I doubt it would have helped any of us identify what he did. In contrast I have found that the Babylonian and Vedic lore around this star cluster are amazingly reflective of his military background! I will post this up later if anyone is interested.

Thanks again.

Mark
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RC



Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 475

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:
Hello RC,



One thing I would not interpret quite the same is the 'protection' the person seemed to have. Most traditionalists would see Jupiter on the angle like that as actually in the 1st house not the 12th.

Thanks again.

Mark


ahh, but there was more than just Jupiter. He had all the benefics there. Sun and Venus as well.

Glad you felt it worthwhile.

RC Smile
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